Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

Virgon, Caprica, Ragnar[edit]

I think it's fair to make them in the same star system, since it seems very reasonable, and having a definitive verb makes the article more encyclopedic.TaKometer 11:41, 1 December 2006 (CST)

I am pretty sure that Moore confirms that they are in the same star system in the commentary for the miniseries. He said something to the effect that as illogical as it is this is one of the references from the original series that he chose to keep in the new series. I don't really want to rewatch the entire 3 hour mini to find the reference but if someone else would I'm fairly sure I'm right. If so that should be the end of the debate. --Meteor 02 February 2007.

"Fair" and sourced are two different things. The article on Cyrannus goes heavily into this debate. I appreciate your point, but we need to leave it ambiguous and not add our own unsourced interpretations to this. Colonial space is vast and need not necessarily be just a solar system, but the nearby space around it. It is likely that all those items are in a single system, but nothing we have confirms this. We just don't know. Further, the name of a company isn't a valid proof for this point: We have an American airline named "Ted," but I don't think that I can claim that it comes from the country of "Ted." We need to revert the article to keep the interpretation simple. --Spencerian 12:25, 1 December 2006 (CST)

I don't think this is fanwanking, since it is *derived information*: There's a screen where we see a diagram of Virgon and its orbit relative to the battle and galactica's position, which we know was only hours away from caprica.

Adama orders tactical to "begin a plot of all military units in the solar system, friendly or otherwise". The information that comes back is that the fight is shaping up "near virgon's orbit". It is also stated that it would have taken 3 days for galactica to get to Ragnar if they hadn't used their FTL drive. TaKometer 15:38, 30 December 2006 (CST)

In reviewing the Mini for another article, I came across something intersting that may apply here. When Gaeta is telling Adama of the location of their squadron early in the attack, the overlay he's writing on says "Caprica Region I." It's upside down on on the top left of the screen, but it's readable.--RUSnooky 22:38, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Merge proposal[edit]

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --Peter Farago 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --Peter Farago 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --Day 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I'm leaving this one up to QuintusCinna, our resident flag-hunter. --Peter Farago 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. QuintusCinna

At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --Peter Farago 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --Fang Aili 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --QuintusCinna 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --Peter Farago 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --Fang Aili 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --Peter Farago 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --Fang Aili 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --Fang Aili 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --Peter Farago 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <div> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([1]), and I've been trying to learn from the Extended image syntax page. I can't figure out why a new section like ==Caprica== doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --Fang Aili 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Ah ha! The wonders of <br style="clear:both;">! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --Fang Aili 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.

I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:

Aerelon, Canceron, Caprica, Gemenon, Picon, Sagittaron, Scorpion, Tauron, Virgon

These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --Peter Farago 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --Fang Aili 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --Peter Farago 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --Day 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. Spencerian 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Which flag is which?[edit]

A close viewing of Colonial Day indicates that the flag currently labeled as Tauron belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --Peter Farago 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in Colonial Day. The reason I say this is that Tom Zarek is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: Virgon, Picon, Caprica, Aerelon, Gemenon, Scorpion, Aquaria(?), Tauron, Libra (?), Sagittaron, Canceron (?), Leonis. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius. --QuintusCinna 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

New Icons[edit]

What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --Peter Farago 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

It looks fine. --Fang Aili 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --Day 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I have a set of colonial glyphs that were lifted from a copy of the voting ballots used in Lay Down Your Burdens Pt1. I can upload both the cap of the ballot and the vector graphics file of the glyphs. I've already released the glyphs for public use, so I have no problem with their being used here. The ballot image I have has Baltar's name blurred out, as that was a spoiler at the time the image was released. The image orginally came from the Reproduction Props Forum, where a member got hold of one of the actual props used in the episode. --Scotchfairy 14:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Thanks for the offer. It would be nice to get a look at them. --Peter Farago 15:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Okay, I've uploaded the four jpgs I have of the voting ballot. They still reside on my server at the moment. If you decide to include them in the wiki, I'll upload them to the database.

If you want to play with the Photoshop custom shapes file, it's here (zip). Scotchfairy 00:25, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

Residence vs. Tribe[edit]

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what tribe" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone from Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen. --Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

Actually, Dee did say "I'm from Sagittaron". Noneofyourbusiness 10:56, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

I agree with the original sentiment. Under the Caprica Natives section, it lists Gaius Baltar, but then clearly states "(Born on Sagittaron)." If that is the case, then he is a native of ... drumroll please ... Sagittaron, not Caprica. He may have resided there, but he was a Sagitton.

I think this should be changed, but didn't want to just change it without some discussion. Unless there is a good reason given, though, I'm going to make the change. /LucentPhoenix 08:26, 20 November 2006 (CST)

The source for Baltar's saggitaron origin was an old SkyOne biography which we no longer consider to be a credible source. --Peter Farago 10:58, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Ah.... alright, then. If it's no longer considered credible, we should probably remove the reference from the Caprica Native page, then, shouldn't we? --LucentPhoenix 15:37, 20 November 2006 (CST)

By all means. --Peter Farago 01:31, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Outposts[edit]

Ricimer wrote: The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as Troy) in other systems (RDM, January 30, 2005), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.

RDM's actual comments are:

Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that Galactica will encounter them in the course of the series. (January 30, 2005)

--Peter Farago 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

Scorpion vs. Scorpia[edit]

At present, we have a name card from "Colonial Day" and the name of the Scorpia Traveler in favor of "Scorpia", and the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you must cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --Peter Farago 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "early concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "Colonial Day" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first prominent mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --Ricimer 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. Gemenon Traveller and the Gemini. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the Scorpia Traveller, for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.

However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpian fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpion, thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --Mason 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:

We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.

We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --Peter Farago 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of Pegasus' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --Ricimer 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even heard "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --Peter Farago 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --Mason 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)

How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --Peter Farago 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I think she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --Ricimer 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --Talos 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Thank you Talos. --Ricimer 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)

Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "[piɑn] , while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, [piən] or [piɨn] . The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --Peter Farago 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)

I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it here. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.

Note, by the way, that the animal spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --Peter Farago 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Final call for objections before I move the relevant articles. --Peter Farago 02:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Location[edit]

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --Day 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --Steelviper 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are entirely arbitrary; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in no way in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --Ricimer 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --Peter Farago 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --Day 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --Bahamut 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

Why do you think that's clear? --Peter Farago 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --Bahamut 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

(this issue has surely been resolved by now but here goes). There was a commentary in one of the DVD's (I want to say the commentary for the miniseries) where Moore said that even though it makes little sense for their to be 12 habitable planets in the same star system it's still canon. Apparently this was canon in the original series as well and this is a carryover from that. Moore wants some things to carry over from the old series...this is one of them. --Meteor 10:40, January 18, 2007.

Upon re-watching the Miniseries (IMHO anyway) all references are given as hours from caprica, but when the war alert first goes off and Cmdr Adama asks to "scan the system" (circa 48mins in) the report is given that "Now, looks like the main fight is shaping up over here near Virgon's orbit" and a few lines latter "If we can keep Virgon between us and the battle". Which to me means that Virgon, Caprica and Ragnar (a gas giant) are all in the same solar system. thoughts anyone? Pickle UK 00:45, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I think this is a settled issue. From Moore's blog, 30 January 2005:

Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show.

--Peter Farago 00:56, 17 March 2006 (CST)

An important note on this topic is that among young stars, they tend to be grouped in what is known as "stellar associations" which are several stars that are gravitational bound together by virtue of them all being born at the same time in the same stellar nursery and all being within a light year of each other; hence you could call them a system. Now, over time as they get more to our Sun's age, they will disapate over a great distance and no longer be associated, but this is over 100s of millions to billions of years. Generally it is considered unlikely that such young stars bear planets that possess life but does not rule out the idea that they have planets... earth-like planets. Therefore, a stellar association, possessing 12 or more stars....all within a light year of each other...--StrayCat0 01:40, 10 April 2006 (PST)

Honestly, this is the sort of speculation that impedes my enjoyment of the show. It doesn't matter, and I don't care. Feel free to speculate as you will, but I think the whole debate is distracting and unworthy of more than a footnote. --Peter Farago 03:37, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

While Moore's line about borrowing from the original show suggests he means 12 planets, do we actually see anything to suggest there are 12 complete planets? There could be several colonies on a single planet. After all the USA was formed from 13 colonies. This makes things more astronomically possible, though you're not likely to have more than 2 or 3 planets in a star's habitable zone, and one would definitely be better than the others. The other way this could happen is if you had a collection of large, near-Earth sized moons around a single massive object in the habitable zone. Then all could have similar insolation and climate. I don't know how well gas giants would survive in such a hot area but it's at least plausible. The show Firefly used gas giants with many moons, but unfortunately for its own accuracy, it had several such gas giants, which does not appear to be match known planetary science. Having one giant with some number of moons, and several colonies per moon also makes it possible to have ships that are not jump capable and still make sense.--Bradtem 14:56, 2 February 2007 (CST)

More on flags[edit]

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the topic here. I think they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- Kahran 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --Ricimer 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --Peter Farago 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--み使い Mitsukai 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)

Well, I've done some tweaking to our icons making them look a little crisper and sort-of rationalised the originals by QuintusCinna and the ones seen on the Sci-Fi BBS by bescincimevsim. I'll upload them soon and if you don't like them then I guess you can just revert them later. Just thought I'd help out, is all. -- Kahran 00:12, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I think they're an improvement. Thank you, Kahran. --Peter Farago 00:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Colonial Flags[edit]

The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --Peter Farago 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --Peter Farago 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005

By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --Peter Farago 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

We are Gemenese if you Please![edit]

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone from Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Caprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --Day 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Aerilon?[edit]

Unless someone cites a source on this spelling correction, I think this needs to be reverted. Anyone? --Day ^(talk) 19:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Seems like other people are using it: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658 the same way. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 19:52, 20 March 2006 (CST)

It is also on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/ on the Celestra bio. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 19:55, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Well, the forum link is inconclusive, as the poster using that spelling questions it himself and is not, quite frankly, a reliable source. The SciFi.com link is more helpful, but still doesn't help much. They have two different spellings for a couple of the Colonies still around their site, so we can't really trust them on this. Does anyone have a copy of the various writings spawned from the show? If the companions and magazines and scifi.com all agreed, even though none of those are on our big list of accepted sources, I'd consider that a pretty good indication that we'd been misspelling it this whole time. --Day ^(talk) 20:30, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Spelling[edit]

This topic keeps coming up, and our spelling conventions do not seem to match the ones generally used throughout fandom, so I want to have a definitive location for sources on spelling used here. Our emphasis, as always, is on citation and accuracy.

The names of six of the colonies can be seen fully spelled out in the episode "Colonial Day". There should be no room for debate on these.

Canceron
Caprica
Gemenon
Leonis
Sagittaron
Virgon

We can also see the first three letters of "Picon":

There's no serious controversy here, as no other spelling has been proposed for that colony.

Although not visible in the episode, the spelling of Scorpia can be clearly seen in a high-resolution publicity still:

This is complicated by Helena Cain's reference to the "Scorpian Fleet Shipyards" in the episode "Pegasus (episode)". Extensive discussion on battlestar wiki concluded that the visual evidence should be deferred to, and also suggested that she may have been using "Scorpian" as an adjectival form of the colony's name. This was supported by Michelle Forbes's use of a reduced vowel in the final syllable, while other colony names used throughout the series have used the fully realized vowel /ɑ/.

The names "Aquaria" and "Tauron" were given in "Colonial Day" and "Pegasus (episode)", respectively. There is no serious debate on their spelling.

Very little evidence is available regarding the colony corresponding to Libra. Neither it nor its citizens have ever been mentioned in the miniseries or 33 episodes aired to date, nor has RDM mentioned the colony in his blog. SciFi.com's website refers to the Space Park as being of "Libran" registry, but it is unclear whether this is meant to be the nominal or adjectival form of the colony's name (see below).

The name of the colony corresponding to Aries was named as ['ɛɹ.lɑn] in "Bastille Day". Two spellings have been proposed. It is worth noting that the second vowel, which is the one at issue, is not actually pronounced by actress Mary McDonnell.

AERILON
Official Use

The SciFi.com website refers to the Celestra as being of "Aerilon" registry. This is apparently the nominal form, despite the anomalous use of the adjectival "Caprica" on the "Colonial One" entry on the same webpage. (The adjectival forms of Scorpia (Scorpian, established in "Pegasus (episode)") and Tauron (Tauranian, established in "Resistance") are not used.)

RDM uses this spelling in a blog entry dated 30 January, 2005.

Fan Use

Google returns approximately 400 matches for this spelling.
This spelling is used by transcript website SadGeezer.com.

AERELON
Fan Use

Google returns approximately 300 matches for this spelling.
TV IV

--Peter Farago 21:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

Should I Add This Or Not?[edit]

On Wikipedia there is a lot more information on the Twelve Colonies, including founders and names of capital cities. Should I add this information to the corresponding colony section on this page or is this information that doesn't belong on this wiki? --Homeworld616 11:04, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

We're pretty strict about citations around here. Unless we can find official sources to back up that info, it doesn't belong here. I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been officially established names for all Twelve Lords of Kobol (if there are exactly twelve, as RDM was a bit vague on this), and I've got no idea where they are getting the capitol names from. If there is an official source, we'd be good, but it feels like this may be derived from fan fiction (which would have NO place on this article) or at best from novelizations/alternate continuity (which could at least be argued, but is still suspect). --Steelviper 11:17, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Understood. I just reviewed the article and it said that the names were non-canonical. In that case, Wikipedia's information has NO place in this article. If the characters start listing off this information in the next seasons (which I SERIOUSLY doubt they will at this point), I can put it in. However, I want to note that I found confirmation for Aerelon's capital (including a photo) and the colony description on Google. You have to type "Aerelon" (make sure it's spelled EXACTLY like that) and then scroll down the top ten results page. The title is simply "Aerelon" and is located two results under the listing for our own wiki. The description starts with "Capital: Maegera"--Homeworld616 19:24, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

That's a fan site. Please read over the Citation Jihad for a list of official sources. --Peter Farago 20:00, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Thank you no end, Homeworld616, for pointing out this grievous error on Wikipedia. *One person* posted their own fanfic into there: they even left a warning label: "These following sections contain equal parts fanon and canon.".....er, it is impossible to be both "fanon" and "canon" at the same time. ----->I have personally deleted all of this fanfic from Wikipedia, and warned the user that posted it. Sorry, but they get all kinds on wikipedia. Thanks for asking us and bringing it to our attention 616--The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 20:45, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

No problem, Merovingian. It's my pleasure to help make Wikipedia and its associated sites better for all. I can't believe someone actually tried to pass their fanfic off as fact. Oh well, so long as it has been deleted. But we need to watch for other users posting crap around here. Wikipedia's Twelve Colonies may just be the beginning. To quote Shakespeare from The Tempest, "what is past is prologue." --Homeworld616 01:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

Notes on Culture[edit]

All right, has anyone noticed that in the Colonies, virtually everything that would be a rectangle here on Earth (pictureframe, sheet of paper, etc.) is a hexagon? To cite some examples, in the Miniseries Roslin is handed a slip of paper describing the Cylon attack on a networked Battlestar. That slip is a hexagon. Adama's picture frame of him, Zak and Lee is also a hexagon. Even the computers are hexagons. Now, a hexagon has 6 sides (half of 12, which is seemingly a symbolic number in the series), and is a practical shape for use (12-gons would be stupid for paper) so does anyone think that the hexagon is some kind of symbolic shape for the Colonials?

Also, in the Delphi Museum of the Colonies, Starbuck is walking past display cases full of ancient pottery. Culture is transmitted in the form of art and artifacts, so while this may be trivial I feel like it is worth noting.

In addition to this, notice how Elosha's priestess garment is pretty eccentric, while Brother Cavil's uniform is a plain black cassock with some purple decorations. A difference of garb choice for priestesses and priests, perhaps?

Furthermore, in the Miniseries, notice those Caprican mothers carting their babies around the city in those oversized plastic baby carriages that look like they provide too much protection for the tots. Perhaps a link to the Scripture statement saying that life is precious and should be protected? I can't think of any other way for the carriage manufacturer to be willing to put extra money into obtaining more plastic resources for the increased carriage size and safety. No wait, lawsuits... But that still wouldn't explain the supersized babymobiles and extra costs and materials needed for manufacturing.

Cereals! In Sacrifice (I think, I'm not sure), Roslin tells an aggressive Billy Keikaya, "Looks like someone ate their Wheaties today." Okay, so...General Mills was actually a Colonial corporation and they imported it to Earth while we weren't looking. This might just imply that the Colonials also ate Cascadian Farm, Frescarini, Lucky Charms, Chex Mix, Cheerios, Hamburger Helper...the list goes on. Either that or I'm just making a big deal over some trivial prodcut placement.

Finally, in TOS, most of the buildings in Caprica (with exception of Long Beach City Hall where the episode was filmed), were pyramids. In the RDM series, there aren't as many pyramids, but there are a couple in Caprica City (let me get the image). Since there is circumstantial evidence that life began on Earth, does anyone think these pyramids could be a link with the Egyptians, who already had a thriving civilization and the Giza pyramids built by the time Greece (and perhaps the Kobol-sect) became an ancient powerhouse?

Taking all of this into consideration, should I initiate a "Culture" section for the Twelve Colonies (RDM)? --Homeworld616 14:36, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

According the the episode transcript...

Laura Roslin: Someone took their vitamins this morning.

Billy Keikeya: Yeah, I don't know what got into me.

--Sacrifice

There's an "arts and lit article" under construction for the 12 Colonies seriesthat might be a home for some of the architecture, pottery, etc. notes. --Steelviper 15:08, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Thanks, Steelviper. I'll look into that. --Homeworld616 15:18, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Here's the image. Look to the FAR right hand side and note the two pyramid office buildings, one with steep lateral faces and the other looking kind of like a glass reproduction of the Giza pyramids. --Homeworld616 14:41, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Arts and Lit is where we're working on that. Note, that it's really just an in-joke from the Miniseries: they had to "cut corners" on the production due to budget restraints, so it started out as a joke that they were "cutting corners" on everything. The problem was, as this series progressed this became a logistical nightmare, as literally hours of work had to be spent into doing this, i.e. stacks of books in Cain's quarters. As for the image....I'm sorry but it's too vague to actually make out if it's anything. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 15:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Huh, I just noticed that the pyramid to the far right looks a lot like Ra's pyramid ship from Stargate, especially the way the paneling is set up. --Talos 10:28, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Links[edit]

Folks, I've noticed there's some ambiguity going on with the Wiki reference links, and I think we should probably straighten them out. In short, do we want to link to the astrological sign, or the constellations? I note this because I just cleaned up a few of the links before realizing this should be discussed, as (for example), someone had Capricorn point to the WP page there, which is a disambig page, instead of Capricorn (astrology) or Capricornus (the constellation; note the spelling, as there's at least one more constellation that swings this way - Scorpius). Just a thought or two to muddy the waters further. ^_^--み使い Mitsukai 22:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

I'd prefer to link to the constellations. --Peter Farago 02:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

Done and done, then.--み使い Mitsukai 19:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

Libra?[edit]

I thought Libron was the name of the colony that corresponds with Libra. I think you can make it out if you freeze framed it in the quorom of twelve in Colonial Day. Or am I thinking of Leon? It's been a while since I checked the episode. --Meteor 04 February 2007.

It isn't visible, sadly. I've been over nearly every frame of that episode. You are probably thinking of Leonis. --Peter Farago 16:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Aerelon, stop changing my contribution please[edit]

"Farming" when "agricultural" preceeds it, is just redundant. "Accent" is misleading, An accent describes the way people pronounce words of a language that is different from their mother tongue. Dialect describes a regional way of pronouncing wordsin their mother tongue. Since this is only English throughout the Colonies (so far at least), it's quite reasonable to assume that it is in fact a dialect of the 12 Colonies rather than an accent. Additionally, the dialect he spoke as that of a Yorkshire one, a dialect within England. English eing the mother tongue, need I say any more?

Yes "Food Basket" was the term spoken but, in order to maintain utmost clarity, "Bread Basket" ought to be used since that is the correct term to use. eg; "Rhodesia was the "bread basket" of Africa pre-Zimbabwe". Read the wikipedia entry also; bread basket

--Sixu 14:07, 27 February 2007 (CST)[Sixu]

Your points on "farming" vs. "agricultural" and "accent" vs. "dialect" are correct. On the "food" vs. "bread" basket issue, however, I think it's best to stick with what the episode says, especially when viewed in context:

It was considered to be the the "food basket" of the Twelve Colonies. (emphasis added)

If we're saying what people consider Aerelon to be, surely it's better to quote them directly? If you still don't agree, we can always call a vote on the matter... --Catrope 14:16, 27 February 2007 (CST)

I somewhat agree that bread basket is the more common expression. The problem could be solved by just leaving away the quotation marks. Then it's paraphrasing. There is no need to really quote it. But it's also not a big issue; just a trivial word. --Serenity 14:18, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Class in the Twelve Colonies[edit]

There has been some serious issues dealing with class over the course of the show. I wanted to add an article about class in the 12 colonies. I wanted to get people's opinions as to whether I should add the article as part of the race and ethnicity article, as that is generally how it works in our culture, although obviously not in BSG or should I create a seperate section in the Twelve Colonies group of articles specifically relating to class? The reason I come here is that what we would term ethnicity, cultural values/traditions, does not seem to be specifically related to race, minor biological differences, in BSG. There have been a plethora of references to character's ethnicities i.e. the cultures from the specfic colonies. These reasons point towards including Class in Race and Ethnicity, but there is such a large collection of references to Class that my preliminary brainstorm makes me believe there is enough information to create a seperate article. Thanks for any and all feedback on the issue.--Zareck Rocks 23:35, 12 March 2007 (CDT)

AERILON spelling CONFIRMED![edit]

In Kara Thrace's records as seen in The Son also Rises,

Spelling noted under Unit of Organizing of Summary Court-Martial "Aerilon DVT" and again in Organization of Convening Authority "Aerilon Cmbt 5th Division. Please make the proper correction to the spelling. --Os 06:47, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

There's been some issue with the spelling, since official sources have used both. If you read the pertinent section of this very talk page, ~~Ron Moore used "Aerelon" in one of his blog postings~~ there have been official instances of the use of the word "Aerelon". However, the official guide on page 86 does indicate that it is spelled "Aerilon". -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 08:17, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

I noticed that too, but as said I wouldn't consider it the definite spelling just because of one occurrence. This is just the prop department doing their thing. The writers might use another spelling in their scripts. --Serenity 09:14, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

And let us not forget the whole "Margaret Edmonson" misspelling in "Final Cut". That mispelling was corrected as his first post by our esteemed Bradley Thompson. Consistency is a bear sometimes. --Spencerian 10:32, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

From the Second Season, Home, part 1,Adama reads the file of a CAG candidate, who enter active duty at "Tulu, Aerilon" (which is repeated twice), then near the broken shells of walnuts, are the words "Aerilon Homebase"

This is another occurrence from a different season that proves consistency. This indicates that "Aerilon" is the correct spelling. --Os 01:48, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

Economy of the Twelve Colonies?[edit]

Not enough information to go on for an article as this? There's some information on the cubit that concerns the economy of the Fleet. DrWho42 16:09, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

Gather some info, start writing it, and you'll find out. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 15:39, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

I doubt there is enough information to go around. Anything notetworthy can be added as a subsection of this article. --Serenity 15:44, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

Aerelon[edit]

Couple of comments on the references in the Aerelon Section. When he speaks as an Aerelon in Dirty Hands, James Callis appears to have been adopting the stereotype accent and persona of a "working class" Yorkshireman from the North of England. Accordingly:

1. The accent adopted by Baltar is quite clearly a very broad Yorkshire accent from the the North of England. It is definitely not Cockney !

2. The article refers to the Aerelon culture of going down the pub after work for a "pint and a fight" as similar to the culture in Ireland and Scotland. I can confirm that this is most definitely part of English and Welsh culture as well ! In particular Yorkshiremen are well known as tough, no nonsense, hard working characters who like a pint and a rumble. I guess Yorkshiremen would be the Aerelon equivalent in England which is why James Callis probably adopted the accent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AvonKerr (talk • contribs).

I changed the first part. It was already identified as northern English in the language article. So would it be ok to say that the pub thing is a somewhat stereotypical view of Ireland and the British Isles in general? --Serenity 04:19, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Colonial dating[edit]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but Starbuck's disciplinary record shows a reference to a date. It appears to be "22/E4/(?)F3". Anyone know if this is analogous to anything used on Mama Earth, or dare a guess as to how this reflects their own unique method of dating? I also apologise if this isn't the appropriate place for this, as I'm not sure of where else this should be addressed. --Mars 16:08, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Seems to be made up. A similar scheme is also used in Adama's dossier in "Hero". It also has a letter/number pair at the beginning, but then a 5 digit number. The show is a very contradictory and has used several dating schemes so far: Colonial calendar. --Serenity 16:28, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Big split[edit]

What are peoples thoughts about splitting this article into the individual colony pages? this might entise more people to add to the pages and keep the size of this one down. Keep this page purely as an overal article about the colonies as a whole with perhaps a small blurb about each ear and then individual articles to go into more detail? --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 04:50, 28 June 2007 (CDT)