Template talk:Characters

Formatting and Defining Characters in Template

Thanks to Undc23, we have a character template that makes it easier to navigate to characters. There's probably some that choose to adjust the formatting; I've already put my 2 cents in and quickly reached my wiki coding limits. I recommend that contributors compare the format to the template used in Wikipedia for The Matrix saga entries listed there.

We also need to determine two additional points:

• What characters should appear in this list. I feel that characters who have been in at least 3 episodes qualify, but if they are dead for longer than 2 seasons, the entry could be removed unless their contribution to the overall storyline is significant. Crashdown, for instance, may deserve retention here because his death is a critical juncture for Gaius Baltar. Hadrian and Wallace Gray, at present, aren't really characters of depth. I haven't removed or added any characters due to my wiki code skill limits, so look over the template and consider my thoughts and share your own.

• The Original Series character lists would benefit greatly from a similar template, probably similarly named as template:toscharacters. Although the series ran for just a season (and 1/2, counting the dreaded Galactica 1980), the "planet of the week" and "alien of the week" formatting generated dozens of characters. Maybe Undc23 will step to the plate for this, or someone else.

--Spencerian 09:11, 28 December 2005 (EST)

I agree. The TOS could probably use something like this. I'm not sure whether it would be better to follow this example (main characters only) or the matrix one (to organize all the secondary/minor characters as well). I'd be afraid of having an excessive amount of minor characters cluttering it up, but perhaps one season wouldn't be that bad. --Steelviper 10:09, 28 December 2005 (EST)

I don't like this at all. I think it looks ugly on the Matrix pages on Wiki, and is redundant with our Characters category. --Peter Farago 11:59, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Is there any way to organize the Characters category? Maybe a category-subcategory relationship? The character category pages by themselves are difficult to read (in terms of determining which characters are major and going to have a big writeup, vs. minor characters). Having character subcategories might be able to render an easier to navigate category page without adding clutter to each of the characters that falls in the subcategory. --Steelviper 12:22, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Yes, I've been meaning to give some thought to revising the categories here for some time. Let's get to work. --Peter Farago 13:00, 28 December 2005 (EST)

I'm torn. Last night I was trying to figure out the name of the Pegasus's XO so I could see if there was a good picture of him, but I couldn't find him. I didn't go hunting through the Category, however. Something like this would help with that (or just cross-linking him in Cain or Pegasus's articles), but I agree with Peter that it doesn't look wonderful, and deciding who should be on it and all... updating it... Seems like a lot of hassle. I like the idea of subcatagories in the Characters one, maybe so one for Galactica personell (include Lee and Kara because, really, they're from Galactica), Pegasus personell and the Civillians. --Day 15:04, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Spencerian, I agree some characters place on the list is dubious, but I figured others would edit that anyway so go for it. Farago and Day, I don't think it's redundant, as you can browse characters more quickly. If you've noticed, there is a virtually identical template at the bottom of episode pages despite there being an episode category, and this template seems to have been accepted. As for aesthetics, well thats personal opinion, I like it :)--Undc23 19:49, 28 December 2005 (EST)

It certainly does point to a deficiency in the category system. I am continuing to mull on it. --Peter Farago 19:53, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Idea #1?

Been thinking about this for some time as well... Just that nothing's come to me that I've particularly liked. So I'm going to share with all of you the one idea that's been stabbing the grey matter in my mind.

Here's how the whole Category:Characters thing should work, using Category:Characters (RDM) as a baseline...

Category:Characters (RDM) (first level categories, followed by the following categories that would be second level...)

Category:Minor Characters (RDM)

Category:Recurring Characters (RDM) (i.e. Ellen Tigh)

Category:Major Characters (RDM) (The two Adamas, Roslin, et al.)

Did we want to get specific with characters that were Cylons? If so, then we could add:

Category:Humano-Cylon Characters (RDM)

Also, how specific did we want to go with the Character categories? Did we want to have a category for civilians, military, and government? Do we want to have categories for Galactica crew vs. Pegasus crew as well? -- Joe Beaudoin 19:35, 31 December 2005 (EST)

We've been tossing ideas for this around on Battlestar Wiki talk:Categories. There are some problems to be dealt with, but I'm working on a sketch to run by people. --Peter Farago 19:36, 31 December 2005 (EST)

A dissenting view

I love this template because it's a lot easier to cross-navigate than the category. It's also a good at-first-glance look at who all is there. Although here's an idea--why don't we subdivide it so that we can have a template for, say, the Galactica enlisted that may or may not be re-integrated into the master template? (It may also be useful to devise a smaller template for the characters played by the actors billed in the opening credits--Adama, Roslin, Lee, Kara, Baltar, Boomer, and Six--but that may lead to problems.) Philwelch 20:08, 31 December 2005 (EST)

I think the template is getting a little out of hand, but then again BSG is unusual in having so many significant characters who aren't part of the main regular cast. But we're verging on making a huge mess at the bottome of many character pages; meanwhile I don't want some people assuming these are the ONLY characters. I don't know what to do. --Ricimer 00:07, 2 January 2006 (EST)

I also worry that the template will over-power those characters who have very short write-ups and who, for whatever, reason, will probably never have a longer write-up. I mean--what more is there to say about good ol' Raygun? Yet the template is longer than his article. --Day 00:51, 2 January 2006 (EST)

I still want it removed. --Peter Farago 01:50, 2 January 2006 (EST)

Standardization Required

We need to define the use of this template in Standards and Conventions if the majority wants it to stay. Right now, recent additions for one-shot characters unlikely to be seen again anytime soon unneccessarily fill the template and it is growing ridiculously large. I recommend that:

• The character template is used ONLY with characters that play a critical role (in life or death) in the MAJOR plot or MAJOR character's development of the series, AND
• Appears in no fewer than two episodes or a story arc

I propose the two points are mutually inclusive: BOTH must be met for a character to fit in the template. A character that reoccurs but isn't a major story-driving character (such as Laird) doesn't fit the bill, while a recurring character that sparks the course of a major character (such as Elosha) are worthy.

That said, Helena Cain and Crashdown are also good examples of ones to keep in the template. Cain darkly changes the dynamics of the Fleet (and adds a battlestar to it). Crashdown set in motion a darker change in Gaius Baltar when Baltar shoots him. Socinus was in both the "Litmus" and Kobol story arcs with a significant purpose. While Jack Fisk isn't a significant character in itself, he's part of the Resurrection Ship mutual assassination story arc. Thorne isn't a biggie, but his death led to that standoff between Adama and Cain. But Prosna, Hadrian, Mason, Phelan, Shevon, Wallace Gray (among others) are not suitable for long-term retention in the template as they don't fit the two points. There are other ways to find these and other minor characters without cluttering up every article; besides, this is a wiki, so things are linked by design and easy to find with a search term. We have years of Battlestar in store, so we have to keep things trimmed in anticipation and to keep the purpose of the wiki true.

To make this simple, let's keep debate short and sweet--one comment with one dissent. Please avoid conversation threads, and get your point right the first time. If we don't get consensus on the format, we can put it to a vote in a few days. --Spencerian 10:42, 3 February 2006 (EST)

Discussion

Hadrian was a recurring character in season 1, and should stay. Thorne, however, only appeared in "Pegasus", and doesn't appear to meet your requirements. --Peter Farago 11:11, 3 February 2006 (EST)

On the other hand, I'll remember Thorne longer than I'll remember Hadrian. If the template gets too big, we can trim it over time. Philwelch 17:29, 3 February 2006 (EST)

It's already too big. --Undc23 18:41, 3 February 2006 (EST)

I agree; I think Hadrian should stay and Thorne should be dropped. --Redwall 18:55, 3 February 2006 (EST)

Thorne was not a major character, anyway. He was more of a plot device. (Not a Cami, but maybe more of a Wallace Gray... well, somewhat.) -- Joe Beaudoin 19:10, 3 February 2006 (EST)

He saved my life, as well as the lives of fifty other men, you miserable frak! Thorne was more than a plot device! Erm, I mean....I respectfully disagree :) Philwelch 23:10, 3 February 2006 (EST)

Trim

I just trimmed it down a little. Thoughts? Philwelch 18:48, 3 February 2006 (EST)

I would remove Laird and Thorne. -- Joe Beaudoin 19:17, 3 February 2006 (EST)

It does look better, too. Thanks, Phil. --Spencerian 19:45, 3 February 2006 (EST)

Maybe later, but as of now, Laird and Thorne aren't making the template any bigger, they're just making it less empty. Removing them would make no difference with respect to size, their notability notwithstanding. Philwelch 23:05, 3 February 2006 (EST)

Liposuction... stat!

I was mulling over what to do about this template size and came across the page on Cosmo Kramer. Interestingly enough, if one looks at the bottom they see the character box containing the major characters of Seinfeld. We could do the same thing to the major characters of Galactica, although we may have to tailor it to suit our needs. Thoughts? -- Joe Beaudoin 00:06, 11 February 2006 (EST)

How do we decide who to include beyond the seven main characters? --Peter Farago 00:31, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Number of episodes they're in, compared with relative importance to storyline. I would include Tyrol and Cally, for example. --The Merovingian 01:13, 11 February 2006 (EST)

How about the seven top-billed characters, "special guests", and every minor character who has appeared in as many or more episodes as the least of those seven, in a given season? That list would look something like this:

Main cast (seasons 1 & 2)

• William Adama
• Laura Roslin
• Lee Adama
• Kara Thrace (did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market")
• Sharon Valerii (did not appear in "Resistance", "Fragged", "Black Market")
• Gaius Baltar
• Number Six (did not appear in "Flight of the Phoenix")

Season 1 guest characters (must have appeared in all 13 episodes):

• Saul Tigh (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Billy Keikeya (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Cally (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Galen Tyrol (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Karl Agathon (appeared in all episodes of season 1)

Season 1 special guests:

• Tom Zarek (Bastille Day, Colonial Day)

Season 2 guest characters (must have appeared in 12 episodes of 15 thus far, matching Valerii's record)

• Saul Tigh (appeared in all episodes of season 2 through "Scar")
• Galen Tyrol (did not appear in "Home, Part I" or "Black Market")
• Karl Agathon (did not appear in "Fragged" or "Black Market")
• Felix Geata (did not appear in "Epiphanies", "Black Market", or "Scar")

Season 2 special guests:

• D'Anna Biers (Final Cut)
• Admiral Helena Cain ("Pegasus", "Resurrection Ship, Part I", "Resurrection Ship, Part II")
• Tom Zarek (Black Market)
• Phelan (Black Market)

This seems to capture the cast makeup and "important characters" fairly well, without resorting to subjective interpretation. Thoughts? --Peter Farago 02:18, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Thorne appeared in a single episode and does not deserve a place in this box as a result. Meanwhile, Racetrack needs to be added back to it. --The Merovingian 04:10, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Why Racetrack? Philwelch 05:11, 11 February 2006 (EST)

A)I have a certain fondness for Racetrack, because like Helo, she was only supposed to be in one episode, but was so good they brought her back as a recurring character B) she has appeared in many episodes in season 2 subsequently.

To my personal breakdown, on a by the numbers basis(note: some characters appear in many episodes, like Gaeta, but might not even talk, so numbers aren't necessarily reflective of importance): Of the "Main Cast":

• William Adama
• Laura Roslin
• Lee Adama
• Kara Thrace--did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market"
• Sharon Valerii--did not appear in "Resistance", "Fragged", "Black Market"
• Gaius Baltar--did not appear in "Scar", "Sacrifice"
• Number Six--did not appear in "Flight of the Phoenix"

This would move us along to the "recurring characters":

• Saul Tigh--appeared in all episodes
• Billy Keikeya--in most through "Home Part II", but lately just fell into the backround
• Cally--has appeared in 18 episodes (through "Sacrifice")
• Galen Tyrol--did not appear in "Home, Part I", "Black Market", "Sacrifice"
• Karl Agathon--did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market", "Sacrifice"

Getting tired. Have to cut this short. Point is, Racetrack has been in quite a few and become a relatively important recurring character, as opposed to like Thorne...who was in one episode. --!!:::*William Adama

• Laura Roslin
• Lee Adama
• Kara Thrace (did not appear in "Fragged", "Black Market")
• Sharon Valerii (did not appear in "Resistance", "Fragged", "Black Market")
• Gaius Baltar
• Number Six (did not appear in "Flight of the Phoenix")

Season 1 guest characters (must have appeared in all 13 episodes):

• Saul Tigh (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Billy Keikeya (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Cally (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Galen Tyrol (appeared in all episodes of season 1)
• Karl Agathon (appeared in all episodes of season 1)--The Merovingian 06:00, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Merv, wouldn't you do me the courtesy of replying to my post before you appropriate its content for your own? --Peter Farago 11:49, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Actually, this list was made from my own searchings through the character pages. But I digress. Big point is that if we are trimming, we really should remove "alistair Thorne"; he was in exactly ONE episode, and really doesn't seem fitting here.--The Merovingian 18:07, 14 February 2006 (EST)

You blatantly copy and pasted portions of my post into yours. I find it mildly insulting, and I'd rather you didn't do it again as a matter of personal courtesy. --Peter Farago 19:11, 14 February 2006 (EST)

i wouldn't bother with the Number Eight, Number Three stuff

I noticed that Sharon and Doral seem to have "disappeared" in light of their new number designations. May I be so bold as to say that most people know them by their "human" names? Therefore I've decided to change the Cylon portion of the template back to their "human" names, instead of their numeric designations. Anyone else have anything to say on this matter? -- Joe Beaudoin 19:07, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Template:Characters delenda est. --Peter Farago 20:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I went ahead and did a compromise so it says Number Eight (Sharon Valerii). If this takes up too much room then we should do a piped link so the template acts properly in terms of going unlinked on the page it's on. Philwelch 22:23, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Deceased

I did a roll-back, but didn't realize it would auto-comment for me. The reson I did it is because that's not a note for Simon. That's a key to all the other little crosses we've got going. --Day 20:08, 2 March 2006 (CST)

One Year Later: Now What?

Well, we have an obvious problem now - practically none of the characters are still in the positions noted here as of the end of Season 2. We could reshuffle it to reflect their lives on New Caprica, as so:

but in addition to being about five times uglier than what we have now (which I would not have imagined possible), it would hardly be useful for anyone reading about the previous 32 & 2/3 episodes.

Although I'm loathe to say this without having anything better in mind (and I do recognize the navigation convenience that this template offers), I'm going to have to reiterate my point that this template is simply more trouble than it's worth, and should be deleted outright. --Peter Farago 01:07, 14 March 2006 (CST)

It could be uglier, Peter. We could use flashing text and maybe a marquee or however it's spelled. However, I agree. Kill it. Kill it! KIIIIIILLLLL IIIIIIIT!! --Day 01:25, 14 March 2006 (CST)

http://www.math.lsu.edu/~jude/tmp/killit.html (Note, there are 4 copies of the text in that page. Try it in multiple browsers for the full 1996 website effect.) Actually, that's not a vote. I'm conflicted on it, but the lack of a valid organizational scheme is a mark against its continuation. --CalculatinAvatar 02:07, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I think it really needs to be a much simpler list. Main Characters, supporting characters, guest stars. That way all the moving of positions and locations won't have any effect on it. Joe McCullough 12:35, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I've implemented Joe McCullough's idea. Philwelch 02:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

---

For all but 30 minutes of the BSG corpus, the template is fine. My suggestion is a rather *sane* one if you ask me--keep it the same, wait until October, remove whatever characters have mysteriously disappeared since then (Jammer, Hotdog, and Kat are my predictions), and then adjust it as we go. My prediction is that Roslin, Starbuck, Tyrol, and Tigh (among others) will end up in a "New Caprica Resistance" category, and so forth. Quite honestly, I think that the above is a bad-faith attempt at making this template look worse than it needs to. Philwelch 11:47, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I've just added more notations indicating status as of LDYB, but I wouldn't object if anyone removed them for being ugly. Philwelch 12:10, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I really hate to say this (and hate to hurt anyone's feelings, particularly Philwelch's), but the template needs to go. I don't feel that the above point was a "bad-faith" attempt, but rather points out an obvious flaw in the template.

In fact, right now, Shane and a few others working on a portal idea. Characters will have their own portal, and a portal link will be placed on the character's pages (similar to Wikipedia's portal system, which is much cleaner and centralized). So once that's up, then we can get rid of this tumor. (I also have been thinking on a way to clean up the infobox templates as well, because I really think they could be cleaner and more organized.) -- Joe Beaudoin 14:53, 14 March 2006 (CST)

How the hell does it "point out an obvious flaw"? It's a straw man--there is absolutely no way the character template will ever look like it. The portal would require two click to get from any one character page to any other character page, and I don't see how the *current* template (i.e. the one we're using) is at all ugly or a "tumor". Please, let's discuss the template we are currently using and not the straw man that Peter drew up as part of his deletion campaign. Philwelch 02:26, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I was illustrating that the current organizational scheme would not be practical going into the future. If you don't see how the current template is ugly or a "tumor", I doubt I can convince you otherwise, but that's the version that my criticism and deletion vote are leveled at. De gustibus non est disputandum. --Peter Farago 02:46, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Then why did you even waste your time creating that straw man? In any case, I've created a separate idea based on Joe McCollugh's suggestion that uses a far more flexible organizational scheme. In fact, I'm going to implement that idea right now to end this dispute forever. Philwelch 02:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Character Portal

Shane is working on (amongst other things) a Character portal. I think this would be an excellent way to expose the character articles in an organized manner. Rather than trying to cramp all the characters into a very limited space within the template, or ballooning the template to epic proportions, you'd have a whole page to work with. It doesn't exist yet, but I thought I would put it forward as a possible future solution to the whole template problem. Rather than having to support the weight of the full template, a smaller template could be employed with a link to the portal, or just a link (if we really need to save space). --Steelviper 13:27, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I think the template is small enough now to not look out of place at the bottom of any character bio large enough to merit inclusion. A portal in addition to the template would be good, though. There is some problem revolving around what to do with Cylons when we have more than one character from each model--while most of them are interchangeable within the same model, the Sharons and Sixes aren't. I also don't think the template will continually get larger, as over time we will remove characters like Hadrian and Jammer who fail to make an appearance. Once Season Three begins in earnest, we can start removing characters who mysteriously disappear. Philwelch 14:14, 14 March 2006 (CST)

The dead characters should not even be in the template 24 hours after the show. They are dead. i.e. not coming back. If we were going to reference them, they should be in a deacased template. A portal will fix a lot of the navagation issues within Charaters pages. Cylons are not Characters per say, so they have their own Portal in my design here. --Shane 14:17, 14 March 2006 (CST)

That's silly. The old episodes still exist after the characters die, and deceased semi-major characters (like Billy and Crashdown) remain characters. It's not as though we'd even delete their articles — if the template is going to continue to exist (which I by no means advocate), it must accurately reflect the cast throughout the entire series, not just the present moment. --Peter Farago 21:14, 14 March 2006 (CST)

It's that constraint that dooms the template to grow to unreasonable proportions. I'm not disagreeing with the idea (people catching up on the series via DVD, iPod, or i18n broadcasts deserve character navigation too), just pointing out the fact that it becomes a "closed system" within which the entropy is bound to increase over time. --Steelviper 08:11, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Template:Characters Delenda Est

I'm calling a vote. --Peter Farago 09:01, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Keep

1. Philwelch 02:23, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Delete

1. Peter Farago 09:00, 16 March 2006 (CST)
2. Joe Beaudoin 09:08, 16 March 2006 (CST)
3. --Shane 02:50, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Template refactoring/deletion vote

Since you called a vote on the old version that I've replaced with a simpler organizational scheme I'm closing the original vote and calling a new one to avoid ambiguity. Philwelch 03:00, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Keep refactored version (based upon main/supporting/returning guest organization)

1. Philwelch 03:00, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Delete outright

1. Shane 03:01, 17 March 2006 (CST)
2. Peter Farago 03:03, 17 March 2006 (CST)