Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

Promo Image

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--Gallion 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--Gallion 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --Spencerian 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed. Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --lordmutt 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --Sauron18 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

ID

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
Unidentified female
Unidentified female
The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

Philwelch 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --lordmutt 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -Madbrood 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)

They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --Sauron18 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--Gallion 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --Meteor 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean no one familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --Mars 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

Reason for Locking

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Interpretation question

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar. The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, Dodona Selloi, and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information between the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut. --Spencerian 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)

Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--Sauron18 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --Spencerian 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

Three wasn't the Only One

I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --Sauron18 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason. If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--Bradtem 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)

It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --Sauron18 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for chamalla, it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- Gordon Ecker 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)

It seems that projection would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here. Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way. Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--Bradtem 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Warning - possibly big spoiler below

I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[1] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --XLII 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --Serenity 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." Wynler 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)

XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --RUSnooky 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly not a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See Humanoid Cylon speculation and Characters eliminated from suspicion --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)}

Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--Pearse 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --Baltarstar 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... Mishakal 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --Baltarstar 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd actually go with the idea that they are not the FINAL Five, but the FIRST Five. I think the Enemy Seven are the Children of the Cylon group. They don't know about the first 5 also, they don't know who programmed them.--James968 04:51, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

D'Anna's Apology

Right now this article lists Saul Tigh as being the leading suspect of who D'Anna saw, but I'm not sure if this information should really be included; it's complete speculation on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure that it really holds merit. Certainly Tigh has endured the most of all the final five at the hands of the Cylon, but D'Anna never really had much involvement with him; on the other hand, she attacked and nearly killed Anders in Downloaded. He would seem to me a more likely suspect of who she saw and felt compelled to apologize to. At the very least, my speculation is no more off bat then the theory that it's Tigh, and that really calls for some change here. ColonelKevin 03:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

I think she's talking to Anders, as they have had a face-to-face conflict with eachother before. She was pretty abusive to him in that episode, and if she saw that he wasn't Human, but a member of the Final Five, she would probably be pretty apologetic....Zach dax 23:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

So much to apologize for. Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project). Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list. Beating up Anders. Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife. Only Foster brings nothing to mind. However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger. Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all? But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--Bradtem 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

D'Anna's sketches

The two on the right are, in retrospect, clearly Tigh and Anders. I'm not sure about the other ones. The one on the far left is vague enough to be anyone with long hair, or anyone with short hair wearing a hood, and the one in the middle is vague enough to be any woman with a slim face, narrow jawline and straight, shoulder length or longer hair. The one to the near left depicts someone with dark hair and a widow's peak, however no major character other than Number Five meets those criteria, however they are rough sketches based on blurry memories, so it could be a distorted portrait of Tyrol, Baltar or Roslin. -- Gordon Ecker 22:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

I dunno, but SkyOne HD already aired this episode, so if anyone has a higher resolution cap of the sketches then it would greatly help the article I think, if at least visually. --Sauron18 17:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Ironies and references

The revelation of the identities Fantastic Four (as I like to call them) brought up some interesting ironies. I thought I'd list them here for entertainment purposes, along with other early references to their Cylonness:

On several occasions throughout the show, Tigh plays with the idea of committing suicide. Not only is this considered a mortal sin by the Significant Seven, it also won't solve his problems, as he'll just be resurrected.
In "33", Tigh gives Adama his 10 minutes rest, because Adama is more tired. Interestingly, Boomer also suffered less from the sleep-depriving conditions than anyone else.
In "Litmus", Tyrol is interrogated for conspiracy with a Cylon.
In the episodes "Scattered" through "The Farm", a Cylon has been in command of the Fleet.
In "Fragged", Tyrol leads an attack on five Cylon Centurions
Anders has been fighting the Significant Seven ever since the Fall of the Colonies.
- When Anders' group ambushes Starbuck and Helo, Anders assumes they are Cylons, while he's a Cylon himself.
In "Resistance", Tigh accuses Tyrol of being a Cylon. Not only is Tigh right, he is also a Cylon himself.
After his release, Tyrol talks about how he saw Sharon Valerii slowly realizing her Cylon identity, not knowing the same will happen to him (although his realization is much faster).
In "Home, Part II", Adama orders Tyrol to guard fellow Cylon Athena, Zarek and Helo.
In "Final Cut", D'Anna Biers tries to implicate Tigh in the Gideon incident, not knowing he's a Cylon just like her.
In "Flight of the Phoenix", Tyrol builds a stealth craft that successfully avoids Cylon DRADIS.
In "The Captain's Hand", Tory is very closely involved in the plot to hide Hera, who is actively searched for by the Seven and connected to the final five on some occasions.
In "Downloaded", a Three threatens to kill Anders, not knowing he's a Cylon as well.
In "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II", Tyrol is the first to identify Cavil as a Cylon.
Tigh, Tyrol and Anders were the three leading figures of the New Caprica Resistance.
- They were also members of The Circle that executed collaborators after the Second Exodus.
- Tory also helped the resistance by organizing evacuation exercises disguised as fire drills.
In "Hero", Tigh is the one to realize Bulldog was manipulated by the Cylons to kill Adama.
In "Rapture", when Three finds the Temple in order to see the final five, two of them (Tyrol and Anders) are just outside (credit to someone else on this Wiki).
In "A Day in the Life", Tyrol suffers far less from the explosive decompression than Cally does.
In "Dirty Hands", Tory only suffers a minor injury when a Raptor crashes into Colonial One close to her.
In the same episode, Tyrol points out to President Roslin that choice sets them apart from the Cylons.
The irony of ironies occurs in "Crossroads, Part II": a Cylon (Tigh) orders three fellow Cylons (Anders, Tory and Tyrol) to help defend the ship from attacking Cylons.

Great list. I noted the temple because this is around the first point that these are deliberate ironies. RDM has admitted he didn't pick who would be the final 5 until during this season, so the ironies prior to the exodus are probably unintentional. (Also, just like rain on your wedding day, not all these are ironies :-) For example, Tyrol's decompression is much more clearly a plain-old clue, it was in his clue list. We don't know if the F5 were picked during Collaborators but that is also an interesting irony if they were.--Bradtem 15:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

I know they're not all ironies (that's why this section is titled "Ironies and references"), and they can't all have been intentional. I just suddenly realized the one in "Resistance" (still one of my favorites in this list), and built the rest of the list around it. It's actually funny to see how many of these ironies/references can be found in the first two seasons. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 15:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)