Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

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Archived Page

I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --Spencerian 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

Romo Lampkin's entry

I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost everyone is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was Tom Zarek, Phelan, Valance, and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually knew Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like Ellen Tigh's mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --Spencerian 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

Statement on Death

I have changed the following line:

As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is probable possible that the character is a Cylon.

The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--み使い Mitsukai 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

All Males Should Be In Low Probability

I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --Sauron18 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --Peter Farago 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--Sauron18 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--み使い Mitsukai 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Kara Thrace

According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.(Source) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the Final five). --Gen00b 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Major Revision Needed

I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria:

• Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.
• Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.

--Peter Farago 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1"

OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.

But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)

Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--Bradtem 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

While the Prisoner reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --Steelviper 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

The Eight Cylons in the fleet

While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in Resistance that Boomer said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.

Cylons who are not in the fleet at the time include Athena, Anders, and Gina, as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:

• Boomer herself
• D'Anna Biers
• The Cavil copy who later counselled Tyrol
• Saul Tigh
• Tory Foster
• Galen Tyrol

You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not Starbuck, since she was on Caprica at the time.

As for the other, my best guess is Shelly Godfrey, though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a Simon lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --Saforrest 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--Bradtem 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --Sauron18 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --Saforrest 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

article reboot

Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be found here. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons fought in the first war on the human side really makes all of our points moot. --BklynBruzer 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --Peter Farago 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --Serenity 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! JubalHarshaw 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this Baltar thing. Alrighty, then: rocks fall, everybody dies! --Spencerian 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.

This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.

I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")

(There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--Bradtem 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the Think Tank to gain a larger consensus. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun?

Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--Tstevens20 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --Serenity 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --BklynBruzer 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--Zarek Rocks 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

We're only deleting this version of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far here. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --Tstevens20 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

It depends on how you define murder. Boomer destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II. -- Gordon Ecker 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in Star Trek, and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

Laura Roslin

As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SSH (talk • contribs).

This is per Ronald D. Moore's comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

But someone says there that RDM didn't know who the final cylon was, but RDM says he does now, implying it was a recent decision and probably after the planning of the end of season 3, so the choice of the four was a very different and earlier decision to that of the very last one. --SSH 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

RDM saying he knows who the final Cylon is happened at roughly the same time as him saying Adama and Roslin weren't Cylons. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 15:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

I have not listened to the whole podcast, but I heard part where he said he ruled out Roslin and Adama, and that was referring to who the 4 revealed Cylons would be, not about who the 5th one is. Did he say it again at a later point in the podcast? If not, I count this as strong evidence against Adama and Roslin but not an absolute rule-out. He likes to equivocate on these things, remember. It could very well be that he said that Roslin would not make sense (as one of the 4) because she's already planned as the 5th, for example.--Bradtem 15:20, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

From the Sci Fi forums:

QUOTE

Do you already know who the fifth cylon of the final five is? If so, have you already left us some clues?

Yes and yes.

Ron

So not only does RDM already know, he also left clues in Season 3. This was posted March 26 2007 (the day after the finale aired). On TV Squad we have:

Posted Apr 4th 2007 3:49PM by Keith McDuffee

(...)

While we await Ron Moore's commentary podcast for Battlestar's season finale, we were treated yesterday to a Q&A podcast between Moore, his wife and several fans at a viewing party in Berkley, CA.

So the frak party podcast was released on April 3rd (one week after the finale), and that's the podcast in which he says (paraphrasing) "there were two people we didn't want to make Cylons: Roslin and Adama". He also says this when discussing his choices for the Fantastic Four. I think that pretty much rules out Roslin and Adama as Cylons, although if you're still not satisfied yet, you can of course always ask Brad to be sure.

--Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 15:49, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

His words are "We didn't want Eddie, that would rob something from the show, didn't want Mary." I will need to go back and transcribe the surrounding dialogue, because as I said, he likes to equivocate about surprises. (He says he never lied about Starbuck, only equivocated.) I just want all the folks who were sure beyond a doubt that Tigh was no Cylon to be careful when you think you're sure!--Bradtem 18:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

This exactly what I was getting at. Revealing Roslin as a cylon at that point would take something from the series, but having the revelation late in the possibly-final series would not... --SSH 04:26, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

I'm working on transcribing the Q&A podcast, which I hope to complete over the course of next week. By then we'll have RDM's literal words and the context black on white (or white on black actually).--Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 06:01, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Serpents Two and Ten

Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --SSH 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Nah, 2 and 10 means 2+10, 12. --BklynBruzer 09:57, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Are you sure that's all it means? --SSH 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

The analysis for the episode is here. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:04, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

I've read it and it doesn't really answer my question --SSH 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

"Serpents Two and Ten" could refer either to the twelve serpents Roslin saw, or to the twelve Vipers in Strike Force Two attacking the Cylon base in "The Hand of God". Those are (IMO) the most likely explanations. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 06:00, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

It's "serpents numbering two and ten" if that helps. Thats just how you say numbers in olde-prophecy language really... OTW 18:07, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

I don't doubt that sometimes it means twelve, I was just wondering if it had a double meaning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SSH (talk • contribs).

To get back to your original theory, the identities of the final five (all five of them) were only decided on when Season 3 started to be written. Anything in Season 1 or 2 that looks like a reference to their Cylonness is coincidental. Although there are plenty. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 04:37, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

It's still possible that some of those coincidences in the first two seasons influenced the later decision. -- Gordon Ecker 19:54, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

Another possible rule?

RDM said that there were clues left all through 3rd season as to who the final cylon was. Which implies that they were heavily present in the third season, or at least heavily mentioned. You can't leave clues about a character who never comes up.

This unfortunately doesn't rule out any of the most likely candidates, but I would still say that it's a valid point, especially considering that it's not hinged on any assumptions beyond what RDM said himself, and we really don't have much to go on.

Thoughts? -Waxwings 16:36, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

Well, crap. I guess that rules out Boxey after all... --Steelviper 16:37, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

What's your source for "clues left all through?" I just know the interview where he said yes, he had picked the final Cylon and yes there were clues. Not that they were widespread. Was there another interview?--Bradtem 02:00, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

According to the Frak Party podcast the decision was made while they were discussing the season 3 finale. I can't find the interview where it was stated that there's hints about the last Cylon, I believe that RDM only stated that there are hints in the third season, without saying anything about their frequency. -- Gordon Ecker 02:29, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Oh, well then I guess I'm not as clever as I though. =/ I guess I was remembering wrong. It still does rule out characters who didn't appear at all third season, but I don't suppose that's much help. --Waxwings 18:53, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Deletion status

This article is still tagged as a deletion candidate. I think it's been reworked enough by now too warrant a keep. The Season 3 cliffhanger notice is probably outdated as well. What's the sitrep on reworking this article? --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 04:46, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, the deletion tag can be removed. But the Season 3 notice is still valid, since the cliffhanger hasn't been resolved. --Serenity 05:24, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

True. I'll do a major cleanup on this one later tonight. The Starbuck section is a mess, and the Dualla section is not yet Final Five-aware. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)}

I've looked at it again, and the cleanup tag itself is indeed unnecessary after the cleanup. But the content of the article is still highly speculative due to the uncertain natures of "Crossroads". So a general note about that would be useful. --Serenity 14:02, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Cleanup

I have done a major cleanup on this article, which included:

• Slightly rewording the qualifiers for suspicion
• Putting the qualifiers in subsections
• Severely rewording and concising the sections about Starbuck and Baltar. All pre-Torn and pre-XR2 references are gone.
• Scrapping all other sections (Dualla, Gaeta, Seelix and Lampkin) entirely (for now), as there don't really seem like good suspects to me post-XR2. You are free to re-add these sections if you have evidence supporting their suspicion. The old version of the article can be found here.

As I've written (and rewritten) entire paragraphs here (something I very rarely do), I recommend that someone someone take a good look at this cleanup of mine and tweak it where necessary. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 13:55, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

"Death" qualifier

I find the "Death" section under "Needed Qualifiers" to be rather confusing. It starts out by claiming that only humanoid Cylons can return from the dead, which is rather a dubious claim considering Starbuck's return; it's far from certain that she is the final Cylon. It also claims that no dead character could possibly return to the show as the final Cylon, yet I don't see why this would be true at all. In fact, on the Reboot version of this page, both characters listed are dead characters. It also references Characters eliminated from suspicion, but that article doesn't address the issue at all, or even list any "dead" characters as eliminated from suspicion.

Since Starbuck's return applies only to her very special case, it would make more sense just to describe her return as a possible indication that she is a Cylon, and remove the section entirely.--Hylas 15:29, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

We can only go, when no other data is available, on what we know. The reboot page is filled with some specious arguments, some use unaired information, such as on Joseph Adama, that are fanwanking since Caprica is unlikely to air (per Ron D. Moore's wife). The logic that the original page gives is, "If a Cylon, they can return." The reboot article also revives Helena Cain, although no such revival is taking place. The special episode Razor takes place in the past, and this article assumes she returns by surprise, which no episode information supports; by that logic, any dead human character could return. Why would Cain be so special?

I apologize for the confusion, Hylas. It's important that Battlestar Wiki never becomes a source unto itself, especially when it comes to the allowed, sourced original research we call here "derived content" (which is the reason this article exists). I have not noted the content of this article before, else I would have made issue of it since myself and other administrators here are responsible for insuring articles stay sourced and (not or) plausible. I will be marking this article for major cleanup and striking the information that is not germane, replacing it with what is known, officially, and exploring the clues that Ron Moore has given in the series as to the identity of the last Cylon. --Spencerian 18:00, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

It's the importance of sourced researched that forms the foundation of my objections to the section. As it is currently written, the section is specious, self-contradictory, and contains two significant unsourced claims:

• As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead... - We don't know that this is true. (If it were, it would imply Starbuck must be the final Cylon.)
• ...any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. - This conclusion does not follow in any logical manner from the first half of the sentence. On what basis can we categorically rule out the possibility of a dead character returning? While there is certianly no reason to expect that Cain, Joseph Adama, Elosha, or any other dead character will return as the final cylon, we have absolutely no basis for saying that it absolutely won't happen.

If we remove the problematic first sentence, we are left with a statement that a character returning from the dead might possibly be a Cylon, which really doesn't say anything, and contradicts claim made in the first part of the first sentence. The implications of Starbuck's return from apparent death can be discussed in the section relating specifically to her.--Hylas 19:20, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

Saying that someone returning from the dead greatly increases their odds to be the last Cylon sounds good to me. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 02:19, 1 July 2007 (CDT)