Template talk:Characters/Archive1

Archive
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Deceased

I did a roll-back, but didn't realize it would auto-comment for me. The reson I did it is because that's not a note for Simon. That's a key to all the other little crosses we've got going. --Day 20:08, 2 March 2006 (CST)

One Year Later: Now What?

Well, we have an obvious problem now - practically none of the characters are still in the positions noted here as of the end of Season 2. We could reshuffle it to reflect their lives on New Caprica, as so:

but in addition to being about five times uglier than what we have now (which I would not have imagined possible), it would hardly be useful for anyone reading about the previous 32 & 2/3 episodes.

Although I'm loathe to say this without having anything better in mind (and I do recognize the navigation convenience that this template offers), I'm going to have to reiterate my point that this template is simply more trouble than it's worth, and should be deleted outright. --Peter Farago 01:07, 14 March 2006 (CST)

It could be uglier, Peter. We could use flashing text and maybe a marquee or however it's spelled. However, I agree. Kill it. Kill it! KIIIIIILLLLL IIIIIIIT!! --Day 01:25, 14 March 2006 (CST)

http://www.math.lsu.edu/~jude/tmp/killit.html (Note, there are 4 copies of the text in that page. Try it in multiple browsers for the full 1996 website effect.) Actually, that's not a vote. I'm conflicted on it, but the lack of a valid organizational scheme is a mark against its continuation. --CalculatinAvatar 02:07, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I think it really needs to be a much simpler list. Main Characters, supporting characters, guest stars. That way all the moving of positions and locations won't have any effect on it. Joe McCullough 12:35, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I've implemented Joe McCullough's idea. Philwelch 02:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

---

For all but 30 minutes of the BSG corpus, the template is fine. My suggestion is a rather *sane* one if you ask me--keep it the same, wait until October, remove whatever characters have mysteriously disappeared since then (Jammer, Hotdog, and Kat are my predictions), and then adjust it as we go. My prediction is that Roslin, Starbuck, Tyrol, and Tigh (among others) will end up in a "New Caprica Resistance" category, and so forth. Quite honestly, I think that the above is a bad-faith attempt at making this template look worse than it needs to. Philwelch 11:47, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I've just added more notations indicating status as of LDYB, but I wouldn't object if anyone removed them for being ugly. Philwelch 12:10, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I really hate to say this (and hate to hurt anyone's feelings, particularly Philwelch's), but the template needs to go. I don't feel that the above point was a "bad-faith" attempt, but rather points out an obvious flaw in the template.

In fact, right now, Shane and a few others working on a portal idea. Characters will have their own portal, and a portal link will be placed on the character's pages (similar to Wikipedia's portal system, which is much cleaner and centralized). So once that's up, then we can get rid of this tumor. (I also have been thinking on a way to clean up the infobox templates as well, because I really think they could be cleaner and more organized.) -- Joe Beaudoin 14:53, 14 March 2006 (CST)

How the hell does it "point out an obvious flaw"? It's a straw man--there is absolutely no way the character template will ever look like it. The portal would require two click to get from any one character page to any other character page, and I don't see how the *current* template (i.e. the one we're using) is at all ugly or a "tumor". Please, let's discuss the template we are currently using and not the straw man that Peter drew up as part of his deletion campaign. Philwelch 02:26, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I was illustrating that the current organizational scheme would not be practical going into the future. If you don't see how the current template is ugly or a "tumor", I doubt I can convince you otherwise, but that's the version that my criticism and deletion vote are leveled at. De gustibus non est disputandum. --Peter Farago 02:46, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Then why did you even waste your time creating that straw man? In any case, I've created a separate idea based on Joe McCollugh's suggestion that uses a far more flexible organizational scheme. In fact, I'm going to implement that idea right now to end this dispute forever. Philwelch 02:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Character Portal

Shane is working on (amongst other things) a Character portal. I think this would be an excellent way to expose the character articles in an organized manner. Rather than trying to cramp all the characters into a very limited space within the template, or ballooning the template to epic proportions, you'd have a whole page to work with. It doesn't exist yet, but I thought I would put it forward as a possible future solution to the whole template problem. Rather than having to support the weight of the full template, a smaller template could be employed with a link to the portal, or just a link (if we really need to save space). --Steelviper 13:27, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I think the template is small enough now to not look out of place at the bottom of any character bio large enough to merit inclusion. A portal in addition to the template would be good, though. There is some problem revolving around what to do with Cylons when we have more than one character from each model--while most of them are interchangeable within the same model, the Sharons and Sixes aren't. I also don't think the template will continually get larger, as over time we will remove characters like Hadrian and Jammer who fail to make an appearance. Once Season Three begins in earnest, we can start removing characters who mysteriously disappear. Philwelch 14:14, 14 March 2006 (CST)

The dead characters should not even be in the template 24 hours after the show. They are dead. i.e. not coming back. If we were going to reference them, they should be in a deacased template. A portal will fix a lot of the navagation issues within Charaters pages. Cylons are not Characters per say, so they have their own Portal in my design here. --Shane 14:17, 14 March 2006 (CST)

That's silly. The old episodes still exist after the characters die, and deceased semi-major characters (like Billy and Crashdown) remain characters. It's not as though we'd even delete their articles — if the template is going to continue to exist (which I by no means advocate), it must accurately reflect the cast throughout the entire series, not just the present moment. --Peter Farago 21:14, 14 March 2006 (CST)

It's that constraint that dooms the template to grow to unreasonable proportions. I'm not disagreeing with the idea (people catching up on the series via DVD, iPod, or i18n broadcasts deserve character navigation too), just pointing out the fact that it becomes a "closed system" within which the entropy is bound to increase over time. --Steelviper 08:11, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Template:Characters Delenda Est

I'm calling a vote. --Peter Farago 09:01, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Keep

1. Philwelch 02:23, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Delete

1. Peter Farago 09:00, 16 March 2006 (CST)
2. Joe Beaudoin 09:08, 16 March 2006 (CST)
3. --Shane 02:50, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Template refactoring/deletion vote

Since you called a vote on the old version that I've replaced with a simpler organizational scheme I'm closing the original vote and calling a new one to avoid ambiguity. The new template is a minimal, three-line template intended to peacefully coexist with a more comprehensive portal. Philwelch 03:00, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I remain baffled by the criteria used to select supporting and recurring characters. Why is Tory Foster (4 episodes) listed, while Socinus (9 episodes) is not? Why don't Gaeta, Tyrol and Dualla get first names? Why are Kat, Hot Dog and Racetrack just given call signs? Why is Cottle referred to as "Dr." while Baltar is not? --Peter Farago 03:30, 17 March 2006 (CST)

OK, Tory Foster isn't listed, and Cottle isn't referred to as "Dr." As for the others, they're primarily known by their last names or callsigns anyway and it saves space. You're the one complaining about it being too large. Philwelch 03:34, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I'm complaining about it being too large, too inconsistant, inherently subjective and not very useful. --Peter Farago 03:36, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I've addressed the size issue. I'm addressing the consistency issue as well as I can. If you wish, we can come up with less subjective criteria, although I've addressed that as well--the "main" characters are the ones portrayed by actors listed in the opening titles, the "supporting" characters are the ones who appear in almost every episode for a long stretch of time and the "returning guests" are relatively important guest stars who show up repeatedly. As for use, its use is for navigation, and it's a lot quicker at that than clicking back and forth to a template or portal page. Now, if you're willing to provide constructive criticism, I'd be willing to work with you. I think you'll notice that I've made good faith attempts at addressing all your concerns so far, but there comes a time when you need to actually do something constructive yourself instead of spouting criticisms and Latin slogans. Philwelch 03:42, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Keep refactored version (based upon main/supporting/returning guest organization)

1. Philwelch 03:00, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Delete outright

1. Peter Farago 03:03, 17 March 2006 (CST)
2. Day 03:34, 17 March 2006 (CST) Better, but still has issues.

Discussion

Note: I really don't think we need to delete this now. It's simple and it lists only the major characters on the show. Not everyone. --Shane ^{(C - E)} 13:32, 19 March 2006 (CST)

That's the intention. You might notice I also linked to your portal so hopefully they can be companion pieces of sorts :) Philwelch 21:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Yeah. I saw that. Good idea. :) --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 23:09, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Can we get any more input on this? Issues I still have:

• Why do Kara Thrace, Lee Adama, and Karl Agathon get callsigns, but not William Adama?
• Why do Kara Thrace, Lee Adama, and Karl Agathon get proper names, but not Kat, Hot Dog and Racetrack?
• Why don't Gaeta, Tyrol and Dualla get first names?
• Why is Number Six listed as Number Six, while Number Five is listed as Aaron Doral and Number Eight is listed as Sharon Valerii?
• What criteria are we using to chose characters for this template? Is it just whatever "feels right"?
  • Why is Leoben (2 appearances) listed, but not Number Three or Cavil (also 2 appearances)?
  • Why Racetrack but not Socinus?
    • This is not to say that I think we should list Socinus, who frankly I don't think is a widely loved character. But I think we should be able to articulate why not, apart from a vague feeling that he's probably not very important. --Peter Farago 20:02, 23 March 2006 (CST)

• "Starbuck", "Apollo", and "Helo" are frequently used in dialogue: "Husker" is not. Starbuck, Apollo, and Helo served as pilots during the series, Adama did not.
• Because their real names are used more often. Also, to save space.
• Because their first names have only appeared once or perhaps twice in the series, and to save space.
• Because that's what names we know them best as.
• I've already answered this question. If you want to help develop a less subjective criteria I would welcome that, but you've done no constructive work on this template yet so I'm not holding my breath. There is already some objective criteria: if the actor appears in the opening titles, their character is listed under "main", in the order that their name appears in the titles.
  • Cavil appeared in both parts of a two-part episode: by that standard, anyone appearing in all four hours of the Mini-Series counts as four appearances. Leoben has made three appearances counting the end of "Lay Down Your Burdens" and will likely appear again at the season premiere.
  • Racetrack is more recent. If it makes you feel better we can remove her. Philwelch 23:37, 23 March 2006 (CST)

I offered a potential criterion for minor characters above, about six weeks ago. Maybe you could read it and let me know what you think. As for the last point, it doesn't make me "feel" any particular way at all; I'm playing devil's advocate. I think that without any clear guideline to point to, someone will inevitably want to know why a certain character is listed while another one is not, and the template will balloon out of control again like it was before you refactored it. --Peter Farago 23:56, 23 March 2006 (CST)

The template will not balloon out of control, you have my personal assurance on that. I don't think we have anything else to discuss here since your contributions to this template are not constructive. Philwelch 19:46, 24 March 2006 (CST)

I take it that you've read my suggestion for inclusion criteria above and found them wanting. May I please ask you why? --Peter Farago 00:46, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Crashdown to Number Three

As Crashdown has been dead a full year and wasn't a gigantic character like Admiral Cain or something, I suggest that we remove him and replace his space with a link to Number Three, as she will be important in season 3. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 11:16, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

Agree. Maybe the priest also. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 11:17, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

Residence in the character template is a privelege, not a right. You have to earn your keep. I have no strong feelings about this particular issue (Crashdown vs. 3, etc), but I would like to see us avoid the uncontrolled growth that occured before. So I'm all for substituting out lesser/dead characters if new ones look like they need to brought in. --Steelviper 11:24, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

Yes, I try to "keep the population in check": keep a constant number, just switching dead/minor characters for major ones. (Admiral Cain was so big that she should kind of stay on even though she's dead, simply because she had such an impact on the show). --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 23:55, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

If there are no objections, I'm making the switch. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 23:56, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

Sort order

Forgive me, but sorting by credit order doesn't make sense. Alphabetical order is predictable, easy to recall and verify, and less overtly arbitrary. Barring an objection with reason, I'll return to alphabetization shortly. --CalculatinAvatar^(C-T) 23:47, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

Easy: the way they are ordered in the credits roughly reflects the characters' importance in the eyes of the writers (or whoever sets the credit sequence). It's not "arbitrary" if it's based on a deliberate decision made for the show. It's also trivial to verify opening credit order, as we've all seen the opening credits a million times and can check them at a moment's notice if they can't repeat them from memory. Philwelch 22:40, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

It is overtly arbitrary because it is not a typical way of sorting things (except actors' names in credits). It is vastly easier to verify alphabetization than retrieve a DVD just to watch the credits. The idea of memorizing the credits is hilarious to me. Furthermore, the credit order can change.

It is less useful to sort by contract-defined pseudo-importance than alphabetize for the simple reason that the credit order won't help anyone find an item in the list; that is the purpose of sorting anything in the first place.

I still don't think you've made a convincing argument for sorting by the credits, so I will revert eventually barring that or someone else's agreement with you. --CalculatinAvatar^(C-T) 23:06, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

The opening credit order hasn't changed since the first season. (Not sure about the miniseries). As for memorizing the credits, sometimes I forget that not everyone has a photographic memory. There are six people in the list. The difficulty of finding someone in a six-item list is trivial. Organizing them alphabetically is unnecessary and obsessive-compulsive. Philwelch 23:31, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

This keeps changing. To throw my two cents in, I have to agree with the ABC sorting. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:13, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

The opening credit order is unchanged since the miniseries (except the miniseries bills Callum Keith Rennie before Grace Park, largely because Sharon wasn't a major character (or more than one character, for that matter) until the first season. Since we've already subdivided the template according to the actor's status within the show's production (stars, supporting actors, and recurring guest stars hold different types of contracts), it makes sense to order them that way as well. Philwelch 00:32, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Welll we don't need them to be in order. If we didn't have the "Supportings", "Main", "etc", section then I would suggest it that way, but since we already sperate the three sections, I don't think we need to keep in the order of the credits. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:35, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

It just looks out of place to me to have, for instance, Apollo before Adama. The credit sequence also gives a logical sequence: first the leaders of the fleet, then the top pilots, then Baltar and the Cylons. Organizing alphabetically just scrambles them for no good reason (making Admiral Adama "easier to find" within a list of six characters is not a good reason). Philwelch 00:39, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

To be less kind, ordering by the credits also looks sloppy and unprofessional. The simple reason is that it is in no way apparent they are sorted at all; I, for one, didn't realize it. Unsorted lists speak to haphazard work, and the appearance of being unsorted speaks no less loudly.

Should you like another reason, it is inconsistent to sort the different tiers of characters differently, yet we cannot reasonably use the same ordering scheme for recurring guests. --CalculatinAvatar^(C-T) 03:08, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

And it looks anal-retentive and obsessive-compulsive to have them all alphabetized, especially when it screws with the (in my eyes better) organization scheme used in the credits (first the leaders of the fleet, then the pilots/young officers, then Baltar, then the main two Cylon characters). If you'd like, we could sort the other categories by importance or frequency of appearance as well. Philwelch 02:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Actually, I was using the inapplicablity of such a method of sorting to the other categories as a argument against that ordering scheme for the main characters, so, no, I would not like that. --CalculatinAvatar^(C-T) 03:06, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

As with every other series out there, the credits are sorted by the importance of the actor and not the importance of the character. Therefore, I find the argument that the credits are sorted by the character's importance to be extremely weak at best. Secondly, alphabetical order makes sense, seeing as that how lists are typically sorted barring any other additional criteria that can be sorted. After all this template is named "Characters in the Current Series", not "Characters in the Current Series sorted by importance". Keeping that in mind, I concur with those who believe that alphabetically sorting this template will make the template make more sense out there. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 08:07, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

It's also not called "Characters in the Current Series sorted alphabetically". Clearly they must be sorted somehow; whether they are sorted logically or symbolically is a separate question. Philwelch 03:06, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

Also, I need to make another point that just came to mind. Since LDYB, we have may spot changes. Take for instance Laura Roslin who is no longer president. Based off the "leaders first, military second and Cylons last" ordering scheme supported by Philwelch, Roslin would be moved immediately before the Cylons. Actually, the list of just the main characters would look very much like this: Gaius Baltar (Commander and Chief, President), William Adama (Admiral), Lee Adama (Commander), Kara Thrace (civvy), Laura Roslin (civvy), Number 6, and Number 8. Food for thought, eh? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Yes, except Roslin quickly assumes something resembling her former role in the resistance while Baltar is still a Cylon collaborator, so it works out. Besides, we're back to the fleet (and the general status quo) within the first ten episodes anyway, just like Season Two. Philwelch 03:06, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

Terminology issue

Okay, something is bothering me slightly, and I want someone's opinion on it before I shake the apple tree. The template is "Characters in the Reimagined Series", but we have a section that refers to "Recurring Guests". I should point out that the actors are the recurring guests, the characters are always there, even if they're not in the focus of a particular episode. I'm suggesting we drop the "guests" part off there. A minor nitpick, but one that has meaning within.--み使い Mitsukai 15:35, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Thanks! You are indeed correct and I've gone ahead and fixed the error. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 16:42, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Adding Simon, Shortening Kat

Personally, I find it very odd that Simon isn't in the Character Template. Admittedly, he's one of the least frequently appearing of the Cylon characters, but he seems important enough to me that he should be included in the recurring characters.

This raises the issue of space in the template. I don't think anyone there deserves to be taken out. However, perhaps we could shorten the link for Kat. I don't see any real reason why we have her full name there. It's virtually never mentioned; she's pretty much universally referred to as Kat. At least with Lee and Kara, they are referred to as their given names and call signs with about equal frequency. Truncating Kat's link to merely "Kat" wouldn't confuse anyone looking for her, it would keep it in line with the links for "Hotdog" and "Racetrack," and it would afford Simon some space.

I didn't want to make any changes without hearing what others thought? Does listing her as 'Louanne "Kat" Katraine' really add anything to the template? And is there any particular reason to keep Simon on the list?-- Alpha5099 15:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

No one responded to my proposal, so I was so bold as to go ahead and include Simon. If the decision is a poor one, it isn't permanent.

I also noticed that in the other columns, the Cylons had been put at the end of the list, regardless of alphabetical order. I've done the same thing with the recurring category, so now Conoy, Doral, and Simon are at the end. -- Alpha5099 21:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

Actually, they were in alphabetical order by last name with ties broken based on alphabetical order by first name (or the word "Number"). "Valeri" comes last, explaining her place. The rest of the Cylons that were last ended up that way because they have no last name. --CalculatinAvatar^(C-T) 00:07, 17 November 2006 (CST)

Could anobody tell me why Cavil is considered Supporting Character while Kat is considered Recurring? Cavil appeared in five episodes or so and Kat appeared in about fifteen... -- Spike 21:57, 16 November 2006 (CST)

Billy & Ellen

I say we should remove Billy and Ellen, because they're dead. --BklynBruzer 20:37, 26 November 2006 (CST)

No, because they are important to the overall story. Both were major recurring characters during the first two seasons, whose influence lingers. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 20:49, 26 November 2006 (CST)

I pulled them into a "deceased" category with Kat and Crashdown. --Peter Farago 03:36, 12 December 2006 (CST)

I think this is a great idea and I can't understand why you reverted your edits. --BklynBruzer 08:33, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Because I hate this template and any edit that makes it bigger makes me want to stab my eyes out. --Peter Farago 05:30, 23 December 2006 (CST)

The template isn't that bad. If anything, we could use the show/hide function to reduce the initial size of the template. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 19:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)

Moving Cavil in Recurring

There was no reason for Cavil to be smack in the middle of the Recurring characters. The cylons without last names go at the end of the list. So Cavil should be right in front of Simon. Unless people think "Cavil" is a last name. In which case Cavil should have been before Leoben and Hotdog. Either way, Cavil was in the wrong place. Alpha5099 02:02, 11 February 2007 (CST)

I guess that's fine, although it all appears to be nothing more than reorganizing chairs on the R.M.S. Titanic to me... -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:07, 11 February 2007 (CST)

Chuckles...?

I've gone ahead and removed Chuckles from the deceased template, since he's not that important of a character; he's not Kat, Billy, or Jammer. Unless someone disagrees, of course, then we can discuss the issue. :-) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 20:46, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Kendra Shaw?

Does Kendra belong here? Granted, she is the main drive behind "Razor", but she's not referenced otherwise. For that matter, if we were to go with Kendra, why not list Fisk as well? Fisk had a lot more screen time than Kendra between "Razor" and the Season 2 arc. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 17:37, 29 November 2007 (CST)

The template is already somewhat cluttered. I'd leave it as it is. --Serenity 17:58, 29 November 2007 (CST)

To clarify, would "as is" be before or after the Kendra addition? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 19:38, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Without. Yeah, I like the character, but she appears only in one episode. Cain is borderline too for me. She has some significance, but I think the ones listed here should have (had) some more interaction with other characters. --Serenity 16:17, 5 December 2007 (CST)

I'd put Fisk and Kendra in, personally. --BklynBruzer 16:12, 5 December 2007 (CST)

I think we need to trim it down and maybe start some other templates. "Pegasus Crew" "Galacitica Crew". That would clean up this template real quick. :) The original purposes of this template was for main characters that have recurring interactions in the series. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 23:37, 5 December 2007 (CST)

Hmm... Not that keen on the idea. A lotta clutter, if you ask me. Best to keep this template with characters who are significant to the overall series... neither Kendra nor Fisk really fit. Cain does, but that's because her influence is felt throughout the series. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 23:41, 5 December 2007 (CST)