Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: Galactica Station. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)

Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. Spencerian 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a cure for cancer under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --April Arcus 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- Joe Beaudoin 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --Wingsandsword 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...Joemc72 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --Durandal 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--Shane 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --Bane Grievver 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run? Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --BlueResistance 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing. My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain. Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally. Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid. But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood. Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs. Now they have him curing cancer. --straycat0 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science. It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role. He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected. We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio. And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. Drumstick 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --April Arcus 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something. What did she say? Was it "You're the father."? I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment! (May they rot in hell!) --Axminster 23 January 2006

I wondered about that myself, so when it replayed again later that night, I muted it and let the closed caption run. All she said was "Dr. Baltar?". It could be wrong, though. --Jasonbondshow 25 January 2006

Starbuck's Viper[edit]

Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified Viper 8737. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --April Arcus 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --Talos 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

And By the Way[edit]

I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode really sucked? --April Arcus 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape. --Ricimer 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, April Arcus. The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board. --BlueResistance 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

It certainly had some bad plot points, all of which have been stated. And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one. But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks. Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway. Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence? Certainly not. But I don't know if it sucked. Drumstick 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

THANK YOU! Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ever. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --Watcher 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left. However, yes, this episode was a downer. It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of Epiphanies again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- Joe Beaudoin 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I had to go one step further and detail why the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too (Resistance)). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually bought this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --Spencerian 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

LOL! Oh the pain! --Watcher 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually started in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad. Good points though Farago. I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that I am a genetics major, and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc. More to follow. --Ricimer 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure". As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently. I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance). Curiouser and curiouser... --Sgtpayne 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)

While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --April Arcus 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality. I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises. Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk. Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far. It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies. --StrayCat0 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --Talos 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes? I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --Bane Grievver 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.StrayCat0 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

Cancer Therapy[edit]

I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
- Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
- The body also maintains a set of Cytotoxic T cells. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit Apoptosis

Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing Transplant rejection.
- It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
- Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
- However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
- Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--April Arcus 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Do add your knowledge to the renamed Science in the Re-imagined Series page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --Spencerian 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I have to finish the podcast for Epiphanies. However, RDM states at point point that the finished episode is edited down to just say "the baby's blood", but the scenes they cut clearly explain he's using it's fetal blood STEM CELLS, and then gives a SCIENTIFIC explanation of what this will actually do (I haven't heard the whole thing). However, he thought something like the audience wouldn't understand it, he's afraid of what SOUNDS like technobabble (even when it's entirely accurate; remember how Star Trek: Voyager became obsessed with giving really accurate, but really longwinded science explanations?), and they were running low on time, etc. etc. I hope this info is still "canonical". I need to check on this. --Ricimer 18:30, 25 January 2006 (EST)

He says they contemplated it in the writer's room, but the idea didn't survive to filming. In any case, it still makes just as little sense. --April Arcus 18:46, 25 January 2006 (EST)

It's nice to hear that he may have been thinking of a plausable explanation, but we really can only go by what's on screen. We can't be sure something is cannon unless we see it, right? Drumstick 19:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

As to stem cells and cancer and debate:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021216070733.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060301093335.htm

Use of human embrionic stem cells and cancer treatement:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051012084443.htm

Further, breast cancer cells have stem cell like qualities:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/02/030225070441.htm

The above citations indicate that stem cells can be used to treat cancer, and that breast cancer cells exhibit stem cell like qualities.

While real cancer treatments using stem cells are still experimental, and the episode does not fully expound any science (fictional or otherwise) to justify its course of action, there is evidence that the treatments depicted in the screenplay may work.

The science indicates that there are several approaches to using stem cells (either embrionic or adult) as a cancer treatment. For a made up cylon phyisology, one could choose any of the above referenced articles as a possible justification regarding efficacy.

-- pmau

Just to mention: Yes cancer is like Stem Cells, both are unDifferentiated, and have telomerase and thus can divide indefinately, etc. etc. --The Merovingian 21:26, 5 March 2006 (CST)

As I am going back through the episodes, the my main guide was to make them "look" the same. Hence my edit to Roslin's cancer cure. Since it was discussed in the similar detail elsewhere, I just condensed it into a point and linked it. Revert if necessary, even I will probably add back some of the points. However, I feel like continuity errors and goofs, the "meat" of this type of analysis is distracting for the average user, and really hurts the "look" of the article if it is extensive, and best moved elsewhere after a retrospective look at an episode. Just my 2 cubits. --FrankieG 19:32, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

Guest Stars[edit]

I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --April Arcus 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article. It's what they said on screen. I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut. Happens all the time. --Ricimer 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Bomb Use Spoiler[edit]

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --Spencerian 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- rexpop 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Just a thought on the question of the Nuclear Warhead vs. the Radiological Detection devices. In the Episode "33" the Radiological Alarm isn't raised until the Olympic Carrier starts her suicide run at Galactica. One can infer from this that the Nukes used in the series don't eminate signifigant amounts of radition to set off the alarms until the warhead is actually armed... One should also note that we have never seen Baltar (or anyone else for that matter) wearing any sort of protective clothing for dealing with Radioactive Materials. One would think if the warhead in question where indeed leaking rad's left and right that this precaution would have been taken. Since it doesn't appear to have been neccessary , its somewhat plausible that the radiation is well shielded until the weapon is armed. Given the Colonials ability to travel at Faster Than Light Speeds...and use of the material Tillium as fuel...that their "Nukes" are of signifigantly more advanced design than our own current arsenal. We don't really know what the fissial material is...and the one device we have seen is certainly much smaller than conventional Nukes. just my 2 cents.--Strato

A)I agree entirely with your reasoning about why they wouldn't be able to detect it because we've seen bombs go undetected before (or at least presumed undetected in "Flesh and Bone"), they could just not be armed yet, and they could be shielded. I've listed all of this off myself at one time or another. B) Actually, we know exactly what their fissionable material is: in "Bastille Day" they stated that it is Plutonium. --Ricimer 15:23, 30 January 2006 (EST)

Just to note, there was never a nuke in "Flesh and Bone", which explains why they never found one. --April Arcus 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)

Well my point was, they didn't know there wasn't one: if they can just flick a switch and scan the ENTIRE Fleet at once, they would have done so and said "nope, no bomb"; instead they were searching for hours. This demonstrates that they don't have a comprehensive, all-encompassing radiation-scan system. --Ricimer 19:37, 30 January 2006 (EST)

Strato, I see where you're coming from, but I think if you'll stop to think about how a nuclear device is constructed, and how a geiger counter works, you'll see that it makes no sense - "arming" a nuke wouldn't change its radiation profile in any way, since the fissile material (uraniun or plutonium) and the fusion trigger (tritium, if present) are constantly emitting radiation in a passive manner. --April Arcus 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)

Again...I was infering that the design of the weapon itself might allow for more radition leakage once the warhead is armed (say for example, opening up a rad shielded compartment) based on the assuption that the "Nukes" in BSG aren' t designed the same way as most modern nuclear weapons . This same line of thinking can be applied to the "Radioligical Alarms" in "33" vs conventional Gieiger Counters. We can assume physical laws still apply...but a Civiliatzation that can fold space as casually as the Colonials do has probably come up with some interesting variant solutions to problems than we have at our disposal. A better question to me, instead of asking why the Rad Alarms didn't go off when Jahee leaves with the Nuke (odds are they don't have the devices installed in the landing bay since this isn't a commercial Airport under the U.S. D.O.H.S./TSA)...the better question is, why is it that if Jahee didn't show up with a suitcase, that the Marines escorting him didn't notice or seem to care that he suddenly had a HUGE suitcase upon leaving Galactica? -- Stratohead

I'm sorry, that still makes no sense. The entire purpose of using nukes in the series is that they are something from the real world, and thus, scary — as such, they must obey the laws of the real world from which they are borrowed. BSG is a show which strives for realism, and I am unwilling to make excuses for it by inventing nonsensical "arming" procedures which have no plausible basis. --April Arcus 19:28, 6 February 2006 (EST)

What about the "Rad Buffers" Chief Tyrol mentions in the Mini-Series? When Commander(now Admiral) Adama sends Starbuck down to the Starboard Flight Pod to prep the Viper MkII's for flight... Starbuck asks Tyrol if "these things will fly" and Tyrol tells her that "The Reactors are still hot, we just need to pull the Rad Buffers" etc. That implies to me that they have the ability to contain radition to some degree. I don't see why if you buy that the Colonials "Radiological Alarms" can pick up free radiation from small missle nuclear warheads like the one that hit the Port Flight Pod in the miniseries THAT Quickly from THAT long a range (never mind any other technical aspect of the show) that suspending ones disbelief in this case should be an issue.-- Stratohead

OK, getting the warhead off of Galactica and onto Cloud 9 in the first place is one thing, but it gets more absurd yet. One of the fleet's few remaining warheads is, out of necessity, entrusted to the care of a guy whom nobody trusts, he turns around and gives it as a gift to a Cylon broad he wants to frak, and nobody even notices that it's missing until it goes "boom" many months later. Apparently, nobody ever bothers to check, even occassionally, that it's still where it's supposed to be. Isn't this far more ludicrous than the fact that it was smuggled in the first place? Capedia 12:55, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Roslin as a Cylon[edit]

Gmusser wrote:

True, it wasn't precisely the same scene, but nonetheless it was very close in time and location. We need to consider that Roslin was the person whom Six met in the miniseries and add her to the list of Humano-Cylon Speculated Infiltrators.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than by noting that I find this line of speculation completely absurd. Many things in the universe are possible, but not all of them deserve a line on the episode guide. --April Arcus 19:19, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Agreed. Anyone in a population of billions could have been meeting with Six, and this guy just jumps to saying "we have to face the real possibility that it was Roslin"?? Shot in the dark. --Ricimer 20:29, 28 January 2006 (EST)

It wasn't Rosalin. Were she a Humano-Cylon she wouldn't have had breast cancer in the first place.-- Stratohead

Cylon blood vs. human blood[edit]

If Cylon blood is different from human blood in the ways described in this episode, why is it so godsdamned hard to build a reliable Cylon detector?

Roslin saw Baltar - analysis criticism[edit]

The analysis says: It is completely plausible that Roslin could have done all the things shown on the same day of the attack. However, she could not have seen Six and Baltar together because they were both at his home during the time of the attack.

I disagree and think this should be removed. Who said Roslin saw them while the attack was happening? She saw them before. Anyone with me? --Cyborg 09:26, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Roslin saw them a long time before the attacks. She was on Galactica/Colonial Heavy, I cant remember, and Baltar was watching TV. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 09:30, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Cylons conspired to make the Sacred Scrolls come true[edit]

I removed my analysis for now from the article. Here it is:

Cylons may have conspired to make the Sacred Scrolls come true. In a flashback of Roslin before the attack, Number Six seems to look directly at her. Combining with the repeating flashbacks of Roslin being informed about her cancer, it might imply that the Cylons caused Roslin's cancer.^{[citation needed]} By doing so they have created "the dying leader". Moreover, Cylons (Sharon Valerii) helped Roslin find the way to Earth. There is no proof yet that Cylons planned that the fetus blood of a chimera (Cylon-human baby) would cure Roslin, but we know that the baby is important for them.

I removed it because I got this:

Citation needed
- Hi, Cyborg. You added an addition to the analysis for Epiphanies that suggests that the Cylons are manipulating events to coordinate with information in the Sacred Scrolls. There appears to be plenty of aired information that contradicts this, such as the human virus that threatens to annihilate the Cylon altogether (Torn). Do you have a source that backs up the notion that someone can get cancer just from being looked at in the series? It sounds really overly speculative. For now, I marked the item for you to cite your facts from other shows to back up the item, but I will have to remove this by the end of the day if you cannot cite your deduction. --Spencerian 10:15, 6 February 2007 (CST)
Speculation can be nice, but this sounds extremely far-fetched and goes beyond logical deduction IMO. --Serenity 10:29, 6 February 2007 (CST)

And because I haven't watched all the series yet.