Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

The Cliffhanger

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the Demand Peace movement makes its way to Pegasus and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow Galactica (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that Pegasus brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, Pegasus may end up doing a "Commander Cain charge" at the start of Season 3. --Spencerian 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--The Merovingian 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --Peter Farago 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- Joe Beaudoin 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--Quig 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think the Pegasus is going anywhere... I do wonder what the rescue operation will look like though. I haven't quit anything this week... except maybe worrying. --Aggie 09:58, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. numbertwelve

You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --The Merovingian 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --Peter Farago 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own guesses/fanfic ideas without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --The Merovingian 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)

I believe that the info is coming from BIG SPOILERS. Don't know the validity of it though.

Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--Uncle Mikey 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from here. --Watcher 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --LeobenConoy 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--Uncle Mikey 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Well, actually, numbertwelve was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --Nyiz 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

The Peace Proposal

I haven't actually seen "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--Uncle Mikey 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Speechless

Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. Rocky8311 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)

Joe McCullough 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring Boxey back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--??D Mitsukai 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)

I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --Sgtpayne 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)

You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- Joe Beaudoin 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P Philwelch 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)

I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --Sgtpayne 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

That was totally awesome. --Peter Farago 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)

I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --Shane 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Well Then...

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --Michael 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)

I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --Frankie Gouge 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

"Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection

I don't think that the analysis section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "The Farm" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".

Anyone agree or disagree? -- Joe Beaudoin 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

To expand my point further, Conoy believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the Cylons share his belief. -- Joe Beaudoin 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--The Merovingian 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- Joe Beaudoin 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --Sgtpayne 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--Strato

DubyaBaltar

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. Remember, Remember the Fifth of November.--The Merovingian 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- Joe Beaudoin 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)

I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --Redwall 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Well, Adar said that first. --The Merovingian 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --Sgtpayne 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)

See the dialogue section of Six Degrees of Separation for your answer Sgtpayne. -- Joe Beaudoin 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --Sgtpayne 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)

It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". Philwelch 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)

I don't think that they are trying to Bush bash... If they were then Baltar would have been the one stealing the election. (I don't believe that Bush stole the election, but it is a common belief among Bush bashers.) Perhaps they are trying to comment on American elections in general and there are similarities, but I think the purpose is literary, not political. Oh, and definitely not article material- there is no way this could be unbiased. --Aggie 10:10, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone remember...

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- Joe Beaudoin 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)

You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an All in the Family episode guide. --The Merovingian 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- Joe Beaudoin 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Got it. On a side note, there are lots of really sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --JohnH 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)

None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --The Merovingian 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, here. Because I certainly had that thought enter my mind, and you can't possibly know what the writers were thinking...--Uncle Mikey 11:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Source?

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--The Merovingian 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

This is confirmed. --Sgtpayne 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--The Merovingian 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is "naturalistic" science fiction, after all. --Sgtpayne 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Gina's Scars

We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on Pegasus in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --Peter Farago 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --The Merovingian 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Playa

At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw "Miss Exclusive", though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --Redwall 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)

She's not in the credits. --The Merovingian 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Survivor count

There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "The Captain's Hand". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of Part 1 would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "Downloaded" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --The Merovingian 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- Joe Beaudoin 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --The Merovingian 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- Joe Beaudoin 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "The Captain's Hand" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--GreenDalek 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about thought, not fact. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- Joe Beaudoin 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --The Merovingian 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--GreenDalek 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- Joe Beaudoin 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Cloud Nine bodycount.

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.

• How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
  • The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
    • Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet. Or am I completely loosing my mind Durandal 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)

• No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --BlueResistance 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).

I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:

The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see The Fleet (RDM), but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --Kraetos 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Where should this error go?

When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, Colonial One was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but paint chips? --BlueResistance 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)

Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --Antagonist 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)

I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --Peter Farago 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)

'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said might have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not nesscearily one. --Antagonist 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Fanwank. It's my new favorite word. --Peter Farago 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on Colonial One? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just unhealthy obsession. -- Joe Beaudoin 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)

6's credits voiceover

Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- Frankie Gouge 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)

That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --Redwall 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Firefly connection

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --FIDS 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --The Merovingian 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

We'll Be Back

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast. --TomP 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. Philwelch 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --Bahamut 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Caprica Six or Gina?

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?

• Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in Downloaded, I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. Ausir 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

• Gina was direclty proximate to a thermonuclear explosion, and there's no Resurrection Ship currently afloat. Chances are that Gina's instance of Number Six will not be back.--Uncle Mikey 10:13, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Questions Section

It seems like we have a problem with the "Questions" section of the episode guides. Modeled after the Lurker's Guide to B5 (a resource that I STILL use, whenever I rewatch the series on DVD), the "Questions" seems to be modeled after the "Unanswered Questions" on the Lurker's guide. Now, we're not bound to that by any means, and the episode summary information that we provide is great. However, the "Questions" section seems to become more of a "Questions and Answers" or a "Questions and Speculation", or sometimes a "Questions and Terse Verbal Combat". Ideally I'd like to see some sort of a standard upheld to the questions section so that they would have uniform quality.

One possible suggestion (following the "Oppose, propose" principle), would be moving confirmed, canonical answers to the analysis or notes section. A question with an answer in a subsequent episode might remain, with a link to the episode that answers it. What I'm mainly referring removing to are questions that were answered with information from within that episode (or a prior episode, or the podcast). If the question has already been answered, it's not really an "unanswered question" for that episode.

I just hate seeing the animosity that can be generated from the Q&A process marring the main article space (rather than discussing it in the talk pages, or on a messageboard). Also, it's not that I want to stifle all speculation. I know that our "encyclopedic" standard for most articles can feel pretty restrictive to some. However I do want it to be clear to a new reader what sections are encyclopedic, and which sections may contain speculation. I'm not trying to single anybody out. I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the section, and see what everybody feels. --Steelviper 11:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Lurker's Guide has always rocked my world, too!

As to your points: as I recall, the B5LG's 'Unanswered Questions' section actually never changed once it was written (well, OK, maybe it got added to, but not subtracted from). The idea behind the section was, "These are the questions this episode raises and does not answer by itself." In a tight arc story like B5, it's useful to have a record of those even when the answers eventually show up in later episodes.

My feelings run something like this:

1. If a question is raised and not answered in the episode, it belongs in the Questions section on the encylopedic page.
2. If a question is raised and someone else realises it's actually answered in the episode, it might make sense to add the answer after the question, but it probably makes more sense to move both the question and the answer to the Talk page.
3. If a question is answered in a later episode, the analysis for that episode should note that the event hearkens back to an earlier open plot point, and perhaps the original page should be edited to point forward to the answer, but the answer itself should not be edited into the page for the episode that posed the question.
4. Debates and discussion have no place on the encylopedic pages; only on the talk pages. So if there's any dispute, the whole thing should be moved over.

I'm a fanboy, and I like occasionally delving into speculation as much as any other fanboy, but it belongs on the talk pages, not the encylopedic ones, IMO.

--Uncle Mikey 12:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)