Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive1

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Archive - Between April 2, 2005 and January 23, 2006
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE. Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary. (See Battlestar Wiki:How to archive a talk page.) Please add new archives to Archive 2. Thank you. Shane (T - C - E) 18:00, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

12 Cylon or 12 Humano-Cylon models?

At the end of the miniseries, Adama discovers a note in his quarters. The note clearly reads, "THERE ARE ONLY 12 CYLON MODELS". I believe this settles the issue. Philwelch 01:34, 2 Apr 2005 (EST)

However, I believe (though I have no links) that RDM has said something to the effect that the comment referred to merely 12 humanoid Cylon models, not all Cylons. It wouldn't be the first time they changed something from the miniseries for the show (for example, Helo or the Cylon Raiders switch form missiles to guns). Plus, if you add up all the different Cylons seen so far, I think it's already over 12. Kuralyov 13:39, 19 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Are we debating where the note in Adama's quarters, and 6's statements to Baltar about there being "12 Cylon Models" refers to 12 Humano-Cylon body types, in which case we have confirmed sightings of 4.

If we include ALL Cylons, this would add Cylon Warrior, Cylon Raider, Transports, and Cylon Basestar, this brings the total up to 8.

If we include Cogitators and Cylon Centurion from the first war, that brings us up to 10.

Grimlock 21:21, 19 Jun 2005 (EDT)

PS How do I include a link, as I've done here, but with different text? And while I'm at it, what is a good way to find the link I'm looking for?

Do it like this (but without the spaces between the brackets): [ [Adama, William|Commander Adama] ]

And I think it'd be more than ten; there are:

  1. Cylon Centurian (seen in miniseries museum)
  2. Original Basestar (seen in miniseries museum)
  3. Original Raider
  4. New Raider
  5. New Basestar
  6. Warrior
  7. Transport
  8. Number Six
  9. Conoy
  10. Doral
  11. Boomer

So, going by the reasoning that there are twelve total models of Cylons including all the different Humanoid variants, that means there's a grand total of one more Cylon to be revealed. And since in press releases RDM has said that Season Two will introduce "one or two new Cylons" that's clearly not true. Kuralyov 23:45, 19 Jun 2005 (EDT)

You're assuming that the original basestar, raider, and centurian are current models. Perhaps they're old models that have been replaced, and do not count against the twelve—after all, you don't say "there are twelve models of Mercedes-Benz" and then count every model they've manufactured since 1965. Staying with current models leaves us with:
  1. Basestar
  2. Centurion
  3. Raider
  4. Heavy Raider
  5. Boomer
  6. Six
  7. Doral
  8. Leoben Conoy
leaving four more to be revealed. Five if you don't count the Basestar, and seven if you don't count the Raiders. (One of the new Cylons in Season 2, by the way, is another avatar of Number Six, and not a new model). Another thing—if you're going to throw out the miniseries in order to eliminate the note left in Adama's quarters, then that cuts against the only appearance of the original Cylon Centurion, etc. Furthermore, if their intent is to deceive humans, then they can replace old models—there only has to be twelve models at one time. Philwelch 16:53, 7 Aug 2005 (EDT)
Not to mention that the Heavy Raider and Raider might be variants of the same model, and not separate models in and of themselves. Philwelch 17:02, 7 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Unless those sneaky Cylons lied about the 12 thing just to mess with the cast's head... Random thought: Six specified that she is Model 6 of 12. I know "model" heavily implies something physical, but have any of they Cylons specified that "model" refers to their bodies?

I guess where I'm going with this is that could "model" by like a "personality model?" That said, certain personality models might have an affinity for a certain body type. Like Conoy #2 might have woken up as a Cylon Warrior or as a #6 because another Conoy body wasn't available at the time.

Or not. I'm a little zorched Grimlock 06:56, 26 Jun 2005 (EDT)

That is an interesting theory; however, I don't think there's any evidence either way to prove it. I eman, so far, all the 6s have acted like 6s, all the Dorals have acted like Doral, etc. But the way they explain their 'regeneration' makes it seem like they could easily move to another type of Cylon body. But then again, I don't imagine that they'd have a problem with spare bodies, or maybe their consciousness cna just be stored until a new body becomes available.Kuralyov 11:17, 26 Jun 2005 (EDT)

So if 12 models just means Humano-Cylon models, who are the remaining 8? So far we have

  1. Number Six
  2. Conoy
  3. Doral
  4. Boomer

I've read Lucy Lawless will be one of the 2 revealed this season, so that'd be 5. I've heard discussions of Col Tigh's wife, Lt Gaeta, Lee Adama, and I had suspicions about Petty Officer Dualla reinforced when the Cylons boarded the ship but she was found alone and alive surrounded by dead crewmembers. I also had suspicions of Commander Adama just because he acts so strangely. For example, he received that clue about only 12 models, but never mentioned it to anyone, and continued on like it was nothing. Maybe Boomer tried to kill him because she knows he's a Cylon and the human emotion part of her overcame her cylon side for a split second... Anyways, does anyone have any serious intel about this? Does another number 6 called Gina (albeit brunette, but same model) count as one of the two new cylons revealed this season?

One more thing. One common thread with the female cylons is that they REALLY enjoy frakking (Sharon with Helo, Sharon with the chief, 6 with Baltar, 6 flirting with Adama), so are Starbuck, Dualla, and Ellen Tigh just healthy horny women, or are they cylons too?EagleDriver 2:23, 30 Jul 2005 (CDT)

Dualla's horny? The only moderately horny thing she ever did was kiss Billy in the miniseries, and I chalk that up to just needing a kiss because of all the destruction and loss that was going on. There's also not THAT much to indicate that Cylon women are that horny, other than Six, who's designed for that purpose. Sharon seems pretty normal in terms of sex drive, and is for the most part monagamous, unlike, say, Starbuck. Ellen Tigh uses sex as a weapon if anything and hasn't shown any signs of having a hyperactive sex drive. Philwelch 20:00, 11 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Same, yet Different?

Taking off from the above section, along with the comments mentioned on the front article from RDM, I'm curious as to everyone's take on this idea:

If the "12 Models" are to be reflections of 12 different archetypes of humanity, what do the Cylon models represent?

My current theory on this would be each model represents a facet of human society, being personified through a physical form. Allow me to elaborate:

  1. Number Six: Faith. Through the Miniseries, as well as through the first 33 episodes, a key aspect of Six has been her profession of Faith (through the correctness of her God, and supposed idolotry of the Colonials). In Kobol's Last Gleaming, she mentioned in the opera house how God chose Gaius Baltar to do his work.
  2. Boomer: Love. As seen through her two separate relationships, the message has been clear. Love will transcend any progamming.
  3. D'anna Biers: Truth. As a reporter (Final Cut), her goal was to get to the heart of the matter, regardless of emotion.
  4. Leoben Conoy: Deception. We've seen this one only twice, and in both instances he has only provided confusion, fear, and anarchy. This can't be exemplified than in Flesh and Bone, where he had just about everyone spinning.
  5. Aaron Doral: History. As a people, we often turn to our past to define ourselves, whether or not we change. We also do what we can to capture moments through the actions we do. Doral, as a PR guy, explained Galactica's purpose historically, and arranged events to capture moments in time (Miniseries). During the observation of Helo on Caprica, mentioned how "children need to go into their own" when their parents die (Water).
  6. Simon: Life. Based on the relatively limited information we have (The Farm), my initial guess is that he was designed to examine life. His interest in procreating Humano-Cylons would lead in to that.

Keep in mind that there are still two other Humano-Cylons in the Fleet, as well as four that have yet to be seen. As the series progresses, I hope to be able to add to this list, and get a better picture of this ideal.

This information current as of 1/7/06. --Sgtpayne

There are 8 Cylons left in the Fleet, not 2. We only know one of them: D'anna Biers. And the humans don't know she's a Cylon.

I might have been unclear about that statement; of the eight cylons that were mentioned, two more have yet to be discovered. --Sgtpayne 00:47, 9 January 2006 (EST)
No. There are eight Cylons in the fleet. One is D'anna biers, the remaining seven are of unknown models. Those seven could include one of each of the remaining six models to be discovered, or copies of the ones we already know, or any combination thereof. --April Arcus 01:12, 9 January 2006 (EST)

I really don't think your breakdown works at all; for starters I don't think that they're "archetypes" are one-word concepts necessarily, for example I don't think Doral represents history, he more represents "the type of officeworker person that values order and coordination" or sometihng. Most importantly, Leoben represents "Faith". Actually, we've heard rumors that there is one model that is the dedicated Priest/Friar/religious model, so in that case Leoben would be deception. Still, Number Six represents Lust more than Faith. And I don't know if we could pin down Sharon as representing "Love" necessarily; she represents a lot of things. -->At any rate, I don't think we'll really be able to sit down and assign these things until AFTER all 12 (original? at this point) models are revealed (I feel/hope that they Cylons will eventually (season 6-7?) break their own religious rules or whatever limiting them to 12, in their desire to destroy the humans at any cost). --Ricimer 19:10, 8 January 2006 (EST)

For the 'one-word concept', I was trying to see up to this point if it could be done, using what information we had available from the 30 odd episodes. I didn't figure that this was 'complete' by any stretch, I'm sure to update it as we see more Humano-Cylon models (hence the date). For all I know, there are other aspects of humanity that haven't been considered (such as Lust, which thinking about it, does make sense for Number Six). Appreciate the input though, and I look forward to further discussions about this. --Sgtpayne 00:47, 9 January 2006 (EST)

Six could also be Passion, given her capacity to anger and violence as well as sensuality. Philwelch 16:15, 9 January 2006 (EST)

Origin of the Term "Humano-Cylon"?

We use the term here often, of course, to describe these mechanisms. However, I've never heard it used in any dialogue or in any official information from Ron D. Moore or other creative staff. Can someone note a source for this term, or was it originally created here to give a suitable name for our encyclopaedia? I'm not petitioning to change the name--far from it. But if this name is contrived for our local use, we should make a note of it on the page. Spencerian 10:07, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

It more or less means "humanoid Cylon". Obviously, it's a term coined by one or more of our Wikipedians, and should probably be noted as such. -- 20:25, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT) (a.k.a. Joe)
Done. Spencerian 14:00, 12 September 2005 (EDT)
Boomer referred to them as "the human models" in "Flesh and Bone" (see Cylons for the full quote). --April Arcus 17:12, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

Hybrids/Sharon's daughter article?

I realize that Sharon's daughter is only a 7-8 weel old fetus at this point, but should we make a character article for her now? (Hey, against my initial protests about spoilers Admiral Nelena Cain got an article, and she hasn't even appeared yet).

Separate from that article, should we have a new article or subsection on the hybrids? What do we even *call* the bybrids? Just "the Hybrids?" or what? I got the impression that the Human-Cylon Hybrids were going to be as different from the humanoid-Cylons as the humanoid-Cylons were from Humans (as well as the older Cylons). ***Is it "Human-Cylon Hybrid" or "Cylon-Human Hybrid" for that matter? Should we use a dash or a foward slash, i.e. "Human-Cylon Hybrid" or "Human/Cylon Hybrid"?

Should they get a subsection on the humanoid Cylon article, or a stub there and an entirely new page for themselves? I think if they are radically different from both Humans and Cylons (as I said) that would seem justified.

How are they different? How are they the "Children of God"? What makes them different from Humans if humanoid Cylons are already almost indestinguishable from Humans? How are they still Cylons? Heck, we're still not sure what makes a humanoid Cylon a Cylon ("Silica Relays" remains ill-defined).

Back to Sharon's daughter (she said in "Home, Part II" that it would be a girl), I wonder what her name will be, etc. ---Ricimer, 11 Sept, 2005

Since, as you've pointed out, we don't actually know all that much about Humano-Cylons, let alone hybrids, I would suggest commenting on the hybrids in a sectino of the Humano-Cylon article. Let's try to keep the amount of speculation manageable until we know more. I've heard that we'll be getting some more details on Sharon's child at around episode 13 of this season. --April Arcus 13:36, 11 September 2005 (EDT)

Order of Models

Shouldn't Number 6 be the sixth model listed? Quantum jim 10:41, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

Since we don't have any numbers to the other models, the order really doesn't matter. -- Joe Beaudoin 11:22, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

Re: Adama and Gaeta being ruled out as "Humano-Cylons"

Moved from article by Joe Beaudoin at 14:50, 16 October 2005 (EDT). Reason: This does not belong in the article text, as it is structured like a conversation.

Note that both William Adama and Felix Gaeta were unaffected by the storms of Ragnar Anchorage (Mini-Series). This makes it very unlikely that either is a Humano-Cylon. The only ways around this are if the Cylons developed a way of shielding some models from the storms, or replaced the real Adama or Gaeta with a Cylon copy after Galactica visited Ragnar. This also rules out most of the crew of Galactica--it seems reasonable that all future Humano-Cylons to be revealed will be newly arrived or from the civilian ships accompanying Galactica. -- Added by Vasi.

  • It was stated that it actually takes hours for the radiation from Ragnar to visibly affect a humanoid Cylon. Tigh asked Baltar why Doral wasn't visibly sick yet, and Baltar (making it up spur of the moment but actually correct nonetheless) pointed out that Conoy was there for hours before he was visibly affected by the radiation. When they dump Doral at Ragnar right before they leave, he still appears fine; it was only after hours of waiting on the station that he began to fall ill. Also, Boomer would have been given away as a Cylon if they had stayed around long enough for Cylons in the Fleet to start being affected. -- Added by Ricimer.

Ellen Tigh

" RDM, in an inteview with Star Trek: Deep Space Nine veteran Chase Masterson on "The Chase Show" on an audio webcast on on October 24, 2005, puts Ellen's possibility as a Cylon to rest:

Chase: ...I was actually wondering if she was a Cylon. Ron: Yeah, I played with that motion myself for awhile, then I thought--I figured it was a big enough coincidence that she was alive. That's like the one 'bye' I was willing to go. OK, Colonel Tigh's wife, out of all the billions that are dead, we've going to say that she is found alive. And I thought it was pushing it one step too far to say, 'and she's a Cylon.' Chase: Yeah, I hear ya. No, I completely hear ya... Unless TPTB change their minds, the likelihood of Ellen being a Cylon is now officially next to moot. "

--> No, I believe that what he meant by the above statement was that saying that she was a Cylon in the same episode she first appeared in would be pushing it, but that he ENTIRELY left the door open on that one. Maybe they're reveal it later. It really looks like he meant "saying she's a Cylon in that episode" and I do not feel that the subject of Ellen Tigh was really in any way expanded by this episode; it's just statements which he has actually made before. Therefore, I have moved this here. --Ricimer 19:12, 12 November 2005 (EST)

Cylon Series Revision

Notice of intent: I will be merging substantial content from here into the new article Cylon Models, and splitting off the speculative portions into a new article. --April Arcus 14:32, 30 December 2005 (EST)

If anyone's up to getting one, the new Cylon Models article could stand a provocative screenshot of a bioCylon, perhaps one in combat. The Starbuck/Six fight would make a good one from Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II. --Spencerian 14:42, 30 December 2005 (EST)

Anti-Atheist Opinions

I just removed anti-atheist comments added to the cavil entry. just because he's an atheist doesn't make him automatically immoral and worse than his religious counterparts. Nor has cavil shown anything that one couldn't find in his religious counterparts, he's just obtuse. Azselendor 13:49, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Did Boomer really know the count of infiltrators?

When under duress, the copy of Sharon Valerii known as "Boomer" on Galactica was able to tell Gaius Baltar the number of remaining humano-Cylon agents in the fleet, information that would be impossible to gather without a collective knowledgebase.

She was very convincing when she blurted out the number, but hey, couldn't she have just made up a number to satisfy Baltar?

Of course. My impression was that Baltar was assuming that her answer would be right, whether she knew it or not, just as "God" guided his hand to the correct target on the Tylium asteroid in "The Hand of God". We should make it clearer that she could have been dissembling, though. --April Arcus 20:44, 17 January 2006 (EST)
Not only that, but now her number is moot. How many were hiding aboard Pegasus when she showed up? How many of those have managed to sneak off the ship and join the civilian portion of The Fleet? I anticipate that Adama will offer anyone drafted into service aboard Pegasus from her abandoned civilian fleet the chance to return to civilian status. If I'm right, this would offer yet another opportunity for cylons on Pegasus to lose themselves within The Fleet. So eight seems to me to be more of a possible minimum number. --Day 23:47, 17 January 2006 (EST)

List of people who are ruled out as Cylons?

Should we make a separate subheading of people who are definately not Cylons?---> Adama (RDM stated that he wasn't, plus people have known him for years and Cylons aren't copies of pre-existing people, and he's a veteran of the first Cylon War), Tigh (Adama has known him for 20 years, and he was a veteran of the first Cylon War), Roslin (I think it was just implied that Cylons can't get cancer), Starbuck (they tried to farm her to create a hybrid, and they can only make cylon hybrids with humans), Helo (has fathered a child with a known Cylon, plus Cylons talking amongst themselves (case in point, "Litmus") have stated that he is a human. --Ricimer 15:40, 23 January 2006 (EST)

Since Commander Adama has been directly accused by other characters in the series as a Cylon suspect, I think it's worthiness deserves retention for that reason alone, nevermind the likelihood. Same for Ellen Tigh or any other character where accusations are given, even in jest. Technically, Helo could be added here, although that brings up the "Cylons can't mate with each other" argument, a matter fully killed by the Cylon's interest in his breeding with Valerii. Others, with the possible exception of Gaius Baltar because of the level of chatter or and against between the wikipedians here (our bet notwithstanding), can be a keep-or-purge entry unless more evidence is gathered. Since Jammer and Bell, for instance, are probably very limited or one-shot characters, I'm in favor of moving their minor arguments to their respective character pages, leaving the major accusations here. This may have been discussed before as I remember Peter giving a similar response as mine now. --Spencerian 17:29, 23 January 2006 (EST)