Talk:Anastasia Dualla/Archive 1

XO of Pegasus

The relevant info from Podcast:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II (Act 6, yet to be transcribed):
Eick: Now we never talked about this, but is she the XO here? Do we think she's become the Tigh of the Pegasus?
Moore: I think she has. I think that's something that happened in the year off and I think that essentially so many people left Galactica and Pegasus that they really are on skeleton crews and, y'know, somebody like Dualla that went to Pegasus to be with Lee, presumably, and we'll deal more with— we have episodes that deal more with the circumstances of that in season three, and how that happened and why, but the idea was she essentially went over there and more people kept leaving and leaving, and Lee made her the XO.

I think this is pretty clear, given the source, so we can probably get rid of "presumed" from the succession box. I do want to point out that she'd pretty much have to be a captain or higher to be in the XO position (Captain Aaron Kelly filled in as XO while Tigh was in command). For Dualla to go from PO2 (E-5) to Captain (O-4) in a year would demand both a very fast series of promotions, and a very high rate of attrition within the officer ranks. I don't think it's completely implausible, but it's hard to imagine that Pegasus didn't have a single officer left with any command competence. It's also probably not good military practice to have one's significant other in a directly subordinate position, but Dualla's strong willed enough (c.f. Home, Part I) that it's probably not a huge problem. --April Arcus 16:56, 24 March 2006 (CST)

Yeah. That is pretty clear that we can get rid of presumed. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 17:21, 24 March 2006 (CST)

If normal military protocol were still being strictly followed, you'd be right about the promotions and the relationship issues. However, this is no longer a remotely normal situation. One of the interesting differences between Original Series protocol and RDM Series protocol is that the Original Series treated battlestars like fiefdoms, and it was perfectly normal for Adama and Cain to have their children serving with them; like a feudal lord, Adama was both a military and a civilian leader (he was on the Quorom at the same time as being Commander of Galactica). At the outset, the RDM Series was modeling Colonial military protocol on US protocol -- strict separation of military and civilian concerns, and civilian control of the military, even in extremis. That disciplined, constitutional and republican (small 'r' deliberate) approach now appears to be breaking down because it's increasingly impractical to enforce.--Uncle Mikey 11:35, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Still, isn't it odd that Bill Adama had at least two officers serving under him (Tigh and Helo) while Lee had to promote an enlisted crewman to be his XO? I would think the most appropriate way to distribute personnel would have been for Bill to loan Helo to Lee. --April Arcus 12:25, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Alot can happen in a year. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 12:32, 25 March 2006 (CST)

I haven't seen the eps yet (insert usual excuses here) but my impression was that Tigh went planetside. Really, of the people we know are officers, there aren't very many left (except on the technicality that all pilots, however green, are officers). Which is one of the things that's going to make S3 interesting -- all the old relationships are really totally jumbled up, now, and a lot of the people Adama had come to depend upon are no longer available to him. Setting aside the rest of the fleet for the moment, Adama has taken Galactica out to sea (as it were) without his senior CPO, who was also the best mechanic and manager of mechanics available (Tyrol), along with at least some of the flight deck crew; without trusted bridge officers like Tigh and Gaeta; and without trusted pilots like Thrace and his son (albeit the latter for different reasons). Unless there was some degree of conscription/coercion involved (not my impression), he's left with a purely voluntary corps who are still on board not because of their skills or specialties, but because of their scepticism in the viability of New Caprica and/or their dedication to the idea that New Caprica still needs a defence.--Uncle Mikey 12:43, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Tigh only went planetside during the scenes we saw, so he was with the fleet for a full year before then. I'm not trying to have an argument about the merits of the writing, which I don't think are in question; I'm just pointing out that it's a little bit weird. --April Arcus 12:47, 25 March 2006 (CST

OK, then I agree, it's a little odd. Since we're apparently going to get at least some of the gaps filled in, hopefully we'll get to see the thought process behind the staffing decisions.--Uncle Mikey 12:51, 25 March 2006 (CST)

I think that given the evidence yes, Dualla is the "highest ranking officer under Apollo on Pegasus" and, thus, "technically" the XO, but I mean, she's the XO of a "skeleton crew"...I mean on Star Trek TNG, Doctor Crusher commanded the ship during "Descent, Part II" when there was a skeleton crew on board. --->For practical matters, in terms of the XO of Pegasus link bar at the bottom, yeaaaaaahh it's fuzzy, but, mulling it over, technically yeah she is the XO even though it's not such a big deal. But yeah. I'm all for leaving her in the XO succession link bar. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 22:16, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Not trying to be combative, but using Trek as an example or counter-example of anything regarding military protocol is a bad idea. Considering that the production staff could not itself agree whether Starfleet was or was not a military organisation in the first place (Roddenberry was adamant that it was not), Trek's grasp of how real militaries historically have worked was extremely slippery. It could get away with a lot simply by saying, "This is the shiny happy future. Things change!" Galactica can get away with some similar slipperyness because this isn't "our" culture, but enough effort has been made to make it cognate with our culture that there are limits to what they can do and not have "bullshit" called. That said, having Dee as XO, even if merely by default, doesn't exceed those limits, but only because of the deliberate one-year gap that leaves room for all sorts of explanations.--Uncle Mikey 08:07, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Well yeah; sorry about that; Starfleet is more of an exploratory corps...but I digress. My point was just that it's not a big shocker that she's the XO when it's a skeleton crew...but yeah I guess that would make her the XO. Doesn't matter. Ok. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 20:03, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Someone transcribed a Cult TV interview with Kandyse onto livejournal here, confirming that she is the XO. NOthing much else drastically new. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 09:49, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

I think it's interesting that in the flashbacks of Unfinished Business she's already promoted to some Officer rank. That episode's flashbacks occurred before the mass exodus of military personnel from Galactica and Pegasus, showing that her promotion wasn't necessitated by an officer shortage and wasn't necessarily nepotism b/c she wasn't yet married to Lee. Perhaps she completed some sort of undergraduate degree and was then able to be commissioned..?

Also: does anyone know if she's taken the Adama name? Lee seems to assume that Starbuck would take the Anders name; at best we can probably assume that it's a common practice for the Colonials as it is for us (albeit more infrequently these days)?--Rocky8311 18:49, 4 December 2006 (CST)

Rank

Merv, what was your source when you updated her rank to "Lieutenant"? --April Arcus 14:26, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

She's wearing an officer's uniform. In retrospect, yes, I'm not sure if she's a Lieutenant (or Lieutenant Junior Grade) or the rarely used Ensign rank. We need to see a closeup of her rank insignia. However, Lieutenant seemed the most probable, and it is Gaeta's rank when he does a similar job. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:46, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

Well, if you're not sure, we should just remove the Lieutenant reference until we get confirmation, don't you think? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 15:06, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

Wait, I checked the Galactiastation transcript:

"Dualla: Commander.
Apollo: Wait. Yeah, lieutenant. What is it?
Dualla: I'm not sure. Picking up something on dradis."

So yeah, they called her lieutenant. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 15:10, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

Cool. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 15:12, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

Excellent. Thanks for the source. --April Arcus 16:59, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

Her rank insignia both in the wikipage photo and during Exodus II is "Lieutenant Junior Grade." As for her being addressed as "Lieutenant," that term is used both in Galactica and in the US regardless of whether addressing a full or junior-grade lieutenant--ref. Boomer (?) in Mini & season 1. Similarly, no one called Cain "Rear Admiral" except Adama when specifically discussing her promotion from Commander. I've changed Dee's infobox - Keithustus 08:48, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

First Paragraph

Shouldn't someone rewrite the first paragraph of this article, since she no longer serves on Galactica, and is no longer the comms officer? --BklynBruzer 09:33, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Dualla to die by episode 3?

As with my speculation on Laura Roslin buying the farm in season 3 (per a David Eick TV Guide interview that a "very central character" will die by that time), it's logical that Dualla may be that character. For one, her existance conflicts with the Apollo/Starbuck arc. Two, her position on Pegasus (which can't possibly stick around through all of season 3) invites her to a greater chance of death. It is less likely that Lee Adama will die if Dualla is feeling self-sacrificial for her love. Battlestars don't drive themselves, you know. Just a thought. --Spencerian 10:52, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

I thought this was a spoiler. Speculation (especially reasoned speculation), is an entirely different matter. As for her buying it... I think they'd need to build up some goodwill for her first. I think if they killed her right now (pre-season 3) there'd be more celebrations than lamentation. Casting her in a more postive light, then killing her, would be more effective. (If it were to be done at all.) They love the actress (at least the Podcast commentary seems that way), but that hasn't stopped them from offing people (Crashdown, Billy) when they had other opportunities. --Steelviper 10:59, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

To perfectly honest, I am amazed at the restraint that has been shown so far about spoilers. I am a spoiler 'ho from way back (B5 Spoiler Junkies Also, check out the synopses on the site where you are there) and the amount of information not being displayed here is tremendous. --FrankieG 11:16, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

It's fanservice for us. Eick loves to tease, but he's not giving up anymore data than what's already been said. --Spencerian 11:18, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

Cleanup

Todo:

• Headings
• Season 3 Info

--Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 10:56, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

I've updated the headings, so the only thing needed to be done is Season 3 info. -- Spike 05:13, 22 November 2006 (CST)

Season 3 info is also up to date, at least for now. I think it's time to remove the cleanup mark. --Spike 00:03, 30 January 2007 (CST)

I have marked the Recent developments section for cleanup for the reasons below:

• It is debatable whether it should be a new section in the first place. In character articles, we only create new sections to indicate major changes in a person's life. Nothing that major happened between "Taking a Break" and "The Woman King".
• It's way too lengthy and contains information not relevant to this article:
  • The fact that 51 Saggitarons were brought to Dogsville.
  • The Saggitarons' religious standpoints
  • Dr. Robert's prejudice issues.
  • Information about the nature of Mellorak infection
  • The fact that she had issues with her father
    • That "The Woman King" provides an explanation for these issues is OK to mention, but retelling the fact that she has issues is unnecessary.

Currently, it reads more like an episode summary for "The Woman King" than anything else. --Catrope 14:42, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Agreed. It's not necessary to recap the whole episode. That's what the episode article is for. The part should stay in relation to the rest of the character article. The prejudice issue can be mentioned as it related to her being a Saggitaron. Same with her not sharing the normal Saggitaron believes. But both can be done in one sentence each. The thing with her father is mentioned at the start of the article already.

The tense is also wrong. Articles are written in present tense. --Serenity 15:27, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Answering Catrope: I will endeavor to cut it down more; however, most of the information pertaining to her is relevant and should be included in the article about her. Let me justify it point by point:

• The fact that 51 Sagittarons were brought to Dogsville.
  • These are her people. Her being a Sagittaron was highlighted during the episode was it not? Ironically I left out her tirade against her own people due to space but that scene in Joe's makes the fact of some of her people being brought aboard a development in her life. In the Teaser she was the one to help reassure them when Dr. Robert wanted to examine them also makes it relevant to mention in her biography.
• The Saggitarons' religious standpoints.
  • Again, this is relevant to Dee since these are her people and it is very likely that her lack of religious faith helped caused the rift between she and her father and not merely a general distrust of the military. The Woman King sheds light on her background and her relationship with her father and gives details as to Dee's people's belief system, a religon her father very likely shared. You understand better from where Dee is coming from and the problem she faced with her parents.
• Dr. Robert's prejudice issues.
  • Her people were being killed by him and her life was in potential danger due to those prejudices. That was what the entire last act of "The Woman King" was about. Was she being killed because she was a Sagittaron despite her renouncing their beliefs? Why Dr. Roberts have these prejudices is germane as to why Dee's life was endangered. Sure at the very end we learn that Dr. Roberts didn't try to kill her, but why not? Again the reasons for that is an important detail.
• Information about the nature of Mellorak infection.
  • I really give just the name of the affliction and the reason why they won't take the cure, but it is relevant to why their lives where in danger from both the sickness and the doctor. Their lives where in danger in part because of their religious beliefs despite a cure and demonstrates why Dualla would say the things she said about her own people.
• The fact that she had issues with her father.
  • Review second answer. This is a bio article about Dee isn't it? as I say in the second answer point I think her issues with her father is directly relevant to the beliefs of her people is it not? I think it is a reasonable assumption to think that her problems with her father is directly related to the belief system most Sagittarons have and he most likely had and therefore worth mention in Dee's article. Otherwise you will be leaving out the context of their relationship.
• That "The Woman King" provides an explanation for these issues is OK to mention, but retelling the fact that she has issues is unnecessary.
  • Again, this is an biography article about Dualla, so some recapitulation is necessary and appropriate. Yes this is not a summary of "The Woman King", but it is also not merely a bare bones dry fact by fact summary of Dee's life either, or at least it shouldn't be. This is a biography. Why not go into some detail about an important aspect of her life namely the estrangement from not only her father but her people? "The Woman King" provides substance to that. The fact that her people were on board and what happens to them relates to her as well as what actually happened to her. You will need some background info without making the reader go to another page. I would say the same thing if Tom Zarak, who is Sagittaron, played a significant role in the episode. He didn't and subsequently "The Woman King" would and should get barely a mention in his biography outside of his dire warning about Baltar's trial. Another relevant thing regarding Dee is that her life was potentially in danger because of her ethnicity and it would be relevant to tell the reader why. To do that you need detail and again you will have to get into detail about the episode. On a seperate issue Dee's tirade and emphatic dislike of Dr. Cottle is also worthy of mention since it is a new development in her personal story.
  • Now I now I am a little wordy when I write and I will strive to do better and to be more concise, but at times going into detail is not only reasonable but critical. Dee's people coming on board Galactica and her and her crewmates reaction to them and her coming down with the illness with a doctor who could had killed her because of what she was is relevant to the life of Anastasia Dualla and should be mentioned in some detail in a biography about her. Yes, this is not summary of "The Woman King". I didn't "recap the whole episode" as Serenity wildly claims and the fact I left 70% of it out proves that. I didn't mention the meeting of C-Six and Athena did I? No, not relevant. I didn't mention the meeting between Tom Zarak and Roslin did I? No, not relevant. I didn't even mention Mrs. King's fight for her son, nor details of Helo's investigation, neither was very relevant, nor was the department head meetings with Admiral Adama and Helo's confession, so I think it is grossly unfair to characterize my providing relevant detail concerning Dee as a summary of the episode.
  • I recognize the need to be concise but if that is all you are going to shoot for in an article you will loose more in the end. Yes sometimes "Less is more" but sometimes less is just....less. Hunter2005 20:13, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Cleanup Attempt by Steelviper

Here's a stab at some cleanup, with some notes that I'll make as I make the changes below:

Dualla contracts Mellorak Sickness from contact with some of the refugees of the Threa Sita. Among them are 51 of her fellow Sagittarons. Most of the Sagittarons refuse to be treated, allowing the disease to spread and further fueling the prejudice against them. (A prejudice that Dualla herself claims to understand, as she does not appear to share all of the beliefs of her fellow colonists.) The civilian doctor, though ostensibly treating them, surreptitiously kills a few via lethal injection to prevent them from depleting scare resources. Captain Karl Agathon, discovers the doctor's plot and attempts to rescue Dualla. However, it turns out that the doctor has actually treated her, believing her to be an exception due to her military service. Dualla chose to be treated by the civilian doctor as she appears to have some issues with Doc Cottle (The Woman King).

• Present tense for episodic events.
• Killed mention of her recovery as it will be mentioned again later.
• Exact number of all the refugees not terribly important.
• I'm not sure if it's precisely established whether they brought it aboard themselves, already had it, etc. Best not to even mention it here.
• The specifics of the drug, needed to treat it, etc., aren't as important here, but we can link to it.
• Made the prejudice discussion tighter.
• Tightened up the doctor part.
• Tightened up rescue.
• Moved renunciation up higher.
• Pulled parental issue speculation.
• Episode citation inside of period.
• Pulled Cottle issues into paragraph.

That's my first cut at "concising" it. I agree that sometimes the "Concision Fairies" can go too far, but redundancy, in general, should be avoided. Let the articles that you link to do the detail work. --Steelviper 22:13, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Again, let me attack this point by point:

• Present tense for episodic events.
  • I don't know if this is appropriate for a biography of a character who I believe should be treated like a real person. People's lives in real life is not constructed in such a matter why should the lives of the characters of the show should be treated as if time hasn't past?
• Killed mention of her recovery as it will be mentioned again later.
  • I guess I agree with that and have myself removed the second reference.
• Exact number of all the refugees not terribly important.
  • I partly agree and removed the 300 figure for the mass of the refugees, but kept the 51 figure.
• I'm not sure if it's precisely established whether they brought it aboard themselves, already had it, etc. Best not to even mention it here.
  • Yes it was established. Roberts and Helo's comments at the end of the teaser strongly suggest this. It was also indicated in Act 1 with Adama's meeting with his department heads. No mention of the illness was mentioned prior to either scene. It was only after the refugees were disembarking from the Threa Sita and they were being sorted out and Roberts were attempting to treat them was it ever mentioned. This very strongly suggest the refugees brought it over with them. Is this beyond a total doubt? No, but I think it is beyond a reasonable one.
• The specifics of the drug, needed to treat it, etc., aren't as important here, but we can link to it.
  • Well, I think the fact that the lives of some of the refugees were endangered despite an obvious cure is relevant. In contrast to her people, Dee was prepared to take it, again showing the rift between her people and perhaps between her and her parents views.
• Made the prejudice discussion tighter.
  • Okay.
• Tightened up the doctor part.
  • Okay, but not too tight since there was the question of Dee's life being in danger due to the doctor and his views.
• Tightened up rescue.
  • Okay.
• Moved renunciation up higher.
  • Maybe.
• Pulled parental issue speculation.
  • Again I think this is the heart of the episode concerning Dee. I think it is perfectly legitimate to speculate on how the views of her people and Dee's views may shed some light as to why she and her father became estranged since Dee likely represents everything her father was against. I didn't say for certain this is true, but it is worth mentioning. The Sagittaron refugees brings about this issue.
• Pulled Cottle issues into paragraph.
  • Perhaps that is okay but I do think it is a separate issue mostly since she obviously doesn't have an issue with modern medicine but seem to have a personal approbation against him. Her animosity toward Cottle does come into play regarding the Sagittaron issue in that it put her in the clutches of a serial killer that believes her people should be wiped out save but a few "good" ones.
  • I guess the basic issue is whether how do you see the role of the biographical articles about the characters. Do you construct it strictly only by episode in a strict recital of facts and never refer back to previous episode points, constructing the article like individual components in isolation with each other or do you have it flow like a real biography of a real person? I guess my view is more of the latter. As I said above I treat the characters of BSG as real persons who experiences are not in isolation from each other. I think real life biographies of real persons are constructed like that. Their college "episode" may have an affect on their politics "episode" which has an effect on there family "episode" or visa versa, shedding light on previous events and not in isolation. I think if you read a biography about Abe Lincoln it would probably refer to an incident he had as say a young corporate lawyer that had an affect on his political views and his Presidency. BSG is a very character driven show and "The Woman King" happens to be a particularly character driven episode. What happens to a character in one episode may give insight on what happened to that character or what we learned from him/her in another previous one. In this case I don't think it is so out of bounds to speculate that the beliefs of her father were in conflict with the beliefs of the daughter as we found out in "Final Cut" in light of what we found out about her people's beliefs and her attitude toward her people in "The Woman King". Should we just report these facts without comment or do we delve into how these new revelations may shed light on her relationship with her parents? I believe the latter. I understand the more regimental structure of the episode summaries, but for the character bios I think a more nuanced less sterile "Lego block" construction of them is desirable. Hunter2005 04:37, 25 February 2007 (CST)

Steelviper's cleanup attempt looks good to me. In my initial post I made myself a little unclear; I didn't mean for all those references to disappear, but merely to be shortened. Present tense in biographies is just a convention here. The father issue is good analysis, though; it has been established most Saggitarons are pacifists, providing a good reason for the estrangement between Dualla and her father. I also agree that things like the Saggitarons' beliefs are relevant, but they can be told in a few words, rather than a few sentences. I hope you and Steelviper can reach a compromise. --Catrope 06:13, 25 February 2007 (CST)

I'd change the wording a bit for style so it sounds better, but content-wise it's generally ok. I'd briefly mention why they don't want to be treated though. Just saying "religious taboos" and linking to the religion article is fine. And no need to use words like "appear" here. She does not share Sagittaron believes and she does hate Cottle.

Putting the issue between her and her father in context can be done at the very start of the article, where it's mentioned first. We learned that it existed in "Final Cut" and another 1 or 2 sentences can explain the reason. And I agree that it is relevant.

So I agree Catrope, that we don't need to drop all those points. It's just unnecessary to tell everything in such detail. --Serenity 06:22, 25 February 2007 (CST)

Role

I think that changing Dee's role and stating that she is now the former Communications Officer came much too early. All we know is that she's delegated to surface mission (as is Starbuck, Tyrol or Apollo) - after collecting all necessary resources she'll most probably be back in CIC. There's no indication that Dee is not the Communications Officer anymore, Apollo is not the CAG & so on. -- Spike 04:13, 18 December 2006 (CST)

I think I'm happy with the way someone titled here as a "CIC officer" in the box. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I don't believe she's been at the Communications Center anytime after Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II. She is usually manning the Tactical Station in Season 3 so far. I believe Adama has rightfully put his excess of Pegasus crew to good use. Instead of having Gaeta running between Tactical and the FTL and every other station, he's placed Hoshi at Communiucations, Dualla at Tactical (using her experience as XO), and Gaeta near the FTL but still overseeing all. They are also likely able to cover each others roles, so it's difficult to really define her role at this time i believe. --EnsignXI 08:22, 26 December 2006 (CST)

That's a very good assumption. Hoshi is definately at Communications and not Dualla. Geata's and Dualla's roles are a bit undefined and alternate somewhat. But it makes sense to say that Gaeta is "Officer of the Deck" or something and oversees the operations of several people while Dualla is at tactical. But if needed Gaeta can help her there --Serenity 08:32, 26 December 2006 (CST)

I disagree. Dualla was clearly communicating with Starbuck and Kat during the Raider chase in Hero. Who says that both Hoshi and Dualla cannot be communications officers aboard ship, merely on different watches? -Madbrood 16:36, 30 December 2006 (CST)

Exactly. Also in A Measure of Salvation we can see Dualla wearing her headset (headphone & microphone) in CIC. -- Spike 06:09, 6 January 2007 (CST)

Death

Seeing as she is now deceased, shouldn't this article be in the past tense? -- Moo 04:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)