Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive2

Archive - Between February 14, 2007 and April 21, 2007
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Replacement and retirement of article title

This discussion's origin originated in the Standards and Conventions talk page, where you can find the original content.

Per the discussion in the above link, I plan to move this article to Cylon agent, as it is the most commonly used term to describe the humanoid Cylon models. "Humano-Cylon" will redirect here, and we will need to scour for other terms to redirect as well. This name is sufficiently canonical that it is unlikely that further debate is required. --Spencerian 14:58, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Go for it. Though with an article title of "Cylon agent", it would be great to have a screen capture of the file on Laura's desk that has that wording on it. --Steelviper 15:04, 14 February 2006 (EST)

I may just spend $2 on iTunes to get just that. --Spencerian 15:14, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Move completed; no Big Thang. Summary subarticle in Cylon series pages also updated. Please update any pages for old terminology when appropriate. --Spencerian 15:33, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Am I right in saying that all references to Humano-Cylon should be changed to Cylon agent> --Grafix 08:12, 6 March 2006 (CST)

That's correct. We're going with "Cylon agent" since the only evidence indicating "Humano-Cylon" (see below) may have been doctored by the Cylons to throw us off... --Steelviper 08:19, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Just to clarify; they made the picture below as a joke. Really, we discussed it on our Conventions page, and "human-cylon" seemed too much like describing the Hybrid, and hasn't gained much outside use, so we opted for something else. --The Merovingian 14:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Known Cylon Agents

That pic is AWESOME! It fits the section so well that I would normally suspect that it had been photoshopped (if I hadn't already seen it in the show). --Steelviper 17:00, 15 February 2006 (EST)

Perhaps you moved the article too soon...

I'll likely delete this image soon. I just had the idea of Photoshopping the folder after the preceding post. --Steelviper 18:19, 15 February 2006 (EST)

Photoshop: Suitable tool, or instrument of Satan? --Spencerian 21:37, 15 February 2006 (EST)

Naming Convention

As of "Downloaded" we now finally know some other Model numbers besides Number Six: "D'anna Biers" is Number Three, "Aaron Doral" is Number Five, and "Sharon 'Boomer' Valerii" is Number Eight.

In light of this, should we change the title of some, or all, of their character articles to read "Number Three", etc. like for Number Six? Because apparently, among themselves the Cylons never actually use the fake human names some used as spys, or indeed refer to themselves by name at all. --The Merovingian 02:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I would think that the unfortunately named Number Two is a pretty thankless job. --The Merovingian 03:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Yes, where those numbers are known. I broached the subject on Talk:Sharon Valerii and am currently awaiting a little more feedback before we go ahead with the move. --Peter Farago 03:07, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Do the Cylons tend to look out for Number One? Philwelch 03:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Number One is not a number, he is a man. --The Merovingian 03:10, 25 February 2006 (EST)

A free man? Philwelch 03:24, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I agree with changing the title of ALL articles referring to the mainstream model, making two new for D'anna and Aaron (the media models) like we did for the sharons and sixes.--Sauron18 25 February 2006

When did "we" start calling them "Galactica-Boomer", "Caprica-Boomer", "Pegasus-Six", etc? You see, Televesionwithoutpity.com does make up and popularize terms like this....but I'm not sure if they STARTED using it, or if they TOOK UP using it from some reviewer or the messageboards. I seriously think this is one of those Stand Alone Complex things; we all just more or less independently, from the grassroots up, got the idea to do that. Anyone? --The Merovingian 04:49, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Pretty much. --Peter Farago 14:03, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I generally compel the proper use of "Boomer" to the Galactica model only, as she is the copy that actually served. No one in episodes have called the Caprica copy by that name, and things are confusing enough. "Caprica-Valerii" or "Galactica-Valerii" (or Boomer) is better. Otherwise, yes, we have to make things up until we get an official term, but we should be consistent and precise about it. Never use Sharon in any context--use of character first names only is against wiki convention in episode summaries. --Spencerian 17:19, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Actually, Baltar called Caprica-Sharon "Boomer" at the end of Home, part 2. But what does he know?--Noneofyourbusiness 18:55, 9 March 2006 (EST)

Question: a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness...

I just started watching BSG about a week ago and im only part way through season 2, but I'm thinking isn't there a way for the Galactica crew to stop the cylon agents they kill from transmiting their consciousness? Cant they put the agent in a room with thick metal walls to stop the signal, or put their bodies into a woodchipper, or something similar, so whatever system in the body that transmits will be destroyed? In season one they just tossed the agent out an airlock, they didn't even try to stop him. I guess they really haven't explained yet how it is even possible for the agent's body to come up with enough energy to transmit their entire consciousness in an undetectable signal instantly across several light years. Maybe they'll get to it in a future episode, including the ones I haven't seen yet. Right now, its very magical fairies. --Bp 17:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)

It comes up a bit later. Specifically, right after the mid-season cliff-hanger of Season 2. Not all your questions will be answered, but it becomes less magical. *wink* --Day 02:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Grace Park Reveals Cylon Secrets....

MediaBlvd's interview with Grace Park was releasd in the full today, revealing a few more things about the nature of the Cylons that had not been released before. A lot of things are Park's own point of view, but she does mention a few interesting facts she read in the "Cylon Handout". Some of these facts include:

" Because Cylons were created in the form of humans, and humans were created in God’s image, and Cylons want to be close to God, they can actually choose - but some models more likely than others tend to eat rather than just taking in nutrients. We just learned all this, I didn’t even know it, but taking in nutrients, I think through the skin"

"There would be specific ports in the Cylon base ship that they could do this, and they can also do that with information."

"- it wasn’t a very specific jack, like your phone jack in the wall. Nothing like that in her arm."

"A little bit of both of that. Within one model, the different bodies can share memories, but within that model only. Now I use the words ‘CAN share memories,’ because it’s not like they all automatically share them. I’m under the understanding that you can choose to upload, and you can choose to download information."

"- that the Cylons that we’ve known so far are programmed not even to think about the last five."

These are the actual facts she mentions, amidst her opinions, but what I posted were the solid facts. The last one had already been mentioned before, but this comment clarified that it's not that they don't know who they are, they just don't think about them.

There are also some other interesting tidbits in there (such as why exactly the Naked Sharons let themeselves die) which may help other articles.

I wanted to ask before posting any of this information, it's all solid and concise, but should we nonetheless abstain from putting in the bits we got (because we have nothing else and it would prove to be tantalizing). I think we should put it in, since they are actual facts from the new "Cylon Bible", but I wanted to pass it here so that you can judge on where to put them and how to word them. (Cuz I suck at actually adding it on the article, so I'd rather share the info and let someone else do the fine tuning on the article itself)

For the full interview: http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/MBMag_20060420145.html

--Sauron18 17:22 09 May 2006

That's kind of how I always rationalized they must share info; not between models, not a hive mind, they CAN but don't alaways. This "nutrient bath" thing is new and intruiging though. "This form brings us closer to God"; yeah I was already theorizing on this after that comment in KLG II that that's why they wanted to appear humanlike. Anyway, great to get some more or less confirmation on those musings/speculation. ***I don't know why, but some people treated it as a "oh my God, massive spoiler" that the 7 known Cylon models might not consciously think of who the unrevealed ones are. I mean, it doesn't actually affect the plot or ANY of our speculation so far; always assumed they had some sort of saftey feature like that for secrecy. I wonder: was this "Cylon Bible" RECENTLY written? The Series Bible was written in the break between the Miniseries and season one. Of course, they could have had these Cylon points as running ideas in the writer's room, but is this new, written down 10 page-ish long "Cylon Bible" something new she got? Context. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 21:26, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

It seems the series bible did not containt detailed information on the Cylon Characters beyond the basics, the new bible is specifically made for Cylons I think, probably detailing some history, both personal and such, and the kind of things that may help an actor understand who/what they are playing.

Also, this nutrient bath may be the reason we saw the Sharons naked in KLG2, rather than the Cylons being nudists., and maybe that's also why that part of the Basestar is organic, because it feeds the Ships and the Agents. Guess we'll know in Season 3 --Sauron18

Well I always thought they were naked just because they were "fresh off the assembly line" or "in storage" or whatever; like Terminator. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 16:09, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Maybe, but with the Resurrection Ship.... --Sauron1810 May 2006

So wouldn't the Grace Park interview indicate that the evidence "against" Baltar being a Cylon presented in Downloaded is pretty much bupkis? If the agents arent supposed to think of him as an agent, they'd call him a human. In fact, Baltar's behavior is so selfish it borders on cliche. It would seem to me that he would fit the "selfish asshole" archetype of humanity pretty damned well. --Number Thirteen 01:04, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

telepathic abilities

When Sharon met here "sisters" in the basestar, she could hear their voices. Could that mean, that she has telepathic abilities? Or possibly a kind of relaying made this possible? -- Tirkon 12:06, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Hi, Tirkon. We really don't have any information into the actual manner in which agents transfer low level data (specifically, their memories). They aren't like the Borg; they haven't a collective consciousness. For Boomer to "hear" their voices may suggest that she (as a sleeper) was hearing this low level data transfer for the first time, and being on a basestar may have exacerbated this ability. Agents very likely share data from a collective knowledgebase (since models of the same kind seem to know much of what another model knows, to a point). Since Cylon agents are still constructs, the concept of telepathic abilities suggest implausible things that attribute more biological (even spiritual) concepts to these constructs that probably don't apply; a machine can definitely transmit and receive data (something proven in "Downloaded") so this is the best way to consider Boomer's realization, in my opinion. --Spencerian 12:22, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

humanoid cylons stronger than humans

I think, it is confirmed, that the humanoid cylons are stronger than humans. I.e. confirmed by the fights Starbuck-Number Six, Starbuck-Leoben and William Adama-Leoben. In particular during the fight Starbuck-Number Six Six throws Starbuck as hard as a human never could. During "Downloaded" Six slays Number Three with a huge piece of concrete, which never could be handled so easy by a human. And this piece must have bean very heavy, because the head of Number Three was mud after that. -- Tirkon 12:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

That's generally true. While their bodies are still just as vulnerable to injury as a human body, their strength is definitely greater, although we can't state by how much. We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size, but are not strong enough to bend steel bars (otherwise captured agents could escape their cages). --Spencerian 12:57, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

>We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size ... and throw it about four meters. -- Tirkon 13:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

And there seems to be a little disaccord. If one is strong enough for doing that, he also must be heavy enough for doing that (balance weight). That is opposite to the sex between Baltar and Six, when Six was lying on him (the read vertebral column in miniseries). -- Tirkon 13:39, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

humanoid cylons = agents?

You always talk here from the humoid cylons as agents. Is that realy true? Are they ALL!! agents? Possibly the word "agent" does not have the same meaning in Englisch and German. -- Tirkon 12:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

The term "Cylon Agent" came from the show. See the name note at the bottom of the article. So it's mostly a matter of trying to be "canonical" than trying to imply any sort of affiliation or loyalty. --Steelviper 12:50, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Aaaaaah! Thanks for that claricifation. :o) In the german Battlestar version the term "agent" is not as common. German Wikipedia points out a difference between the english and german use of term "agent". Thus this could be a matter for that. Further the view of some cylons ("the heros in "Download") has changed. Thus in german Battlestar Wiki I have used "humanoid cylon" instead of "cylon agent". And with you comment I am safe, that this dicision was adequate. Sorry for cannot beeing as precise as I would. But I am not a native english speaker. -- Tirkon 13:23, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Maybe its just me but i always loved the term Humano-Cylon ^_^ --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 13:30, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Not a problem! Looks like everything worked out. Also, bear in mind that the standards and conventions of the particular wiki should rule for its articles. That is to say, the German Wiki's standards and conventions should govern the articles at the German wiki. Don't let the English version restrict you at all. As long as you're consistent with your own rules there the German reader/editor will have a more standard/uniform experience. (Though you may want to update that page once you've established new conventions). --Steelviper 13:34, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

>want to update that page At present we are just two translaters. And we are still going to built up the structere and translate the episodes and the most important characters. At this state such conventions are not the point. ;o) And the human cylons was until now the only point, what was a little problematic for me. Thus I wanted discuss this with the well-versed people here. And this was helpful :o) -- Tirkon 13:55, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Unseen cylon agent (miniseries)

In the miniseries, Number Six mentions to Baltar that she is meeting someone (26:35 into the miniseries) when they are walking in public prior to the attack. She leaves Baltar and immediately meets with an unseen person (27:12), remarking "It's about time, wondered when you'd get here". This person can only be a cylon - but they never appear on screen. Who could it be?

--cfuse 06:48, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Anyone. It could also be just another very human bloke Six had contact with during her time on Caprica. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:10, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Cylon naming and instancing

Cylons agents (including sleeper agents) appear to be able to distinguish different instances of the same cylon model from one and other without any difficulty. In Downloaded, 'Sharon' seems to have no difficulty in identifying individual cylons apart, despite the fact that all cylons of a given model are visually identical. In addition, she is admonished for using her name because it is a vestige of her human identity and presumably redundant in cylon society.

--cfuse 06:57, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Honestly, we don't know how they do it, and I doubt that it'll ever be explained in the series. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:13, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Centurions

It's been added that Cylon Centurions can't tell the difference between copies of the same model, but that's not what Adama said. He said that they can't tell one humanoid Cylon (ex: Sharon) apart from any other humanoid Cylon. Noneofyourbusiness 18:51, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

A word about Number Three

The entry about Number Three says, that of all the Cylon agent models revealed to viewers, the Colonials are not yet aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon agent as of the season two finale, "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II."
Oh, c'mon. In "Downloaded" D'Anna, along with other Cylons, was clearly seen by Samuel Anders. In "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" Anders arrives on Galactica - did you think that he hasn't told the others about what he saw on Caprica? The moment Anders was rescued by Starbuck&Co., the true identity of D'Anna was no longer a secret (hence her presence on New Caprica).-- Spike 17:29, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

Hi, Spike. Aside from the article now being out of date, the specific clarification you're missing is "of all the Cylon agents revealed to viewers, the members of the Fleet are not aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon as of "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II."" Galactica's members and her Fleet may still be unaware that the one named D'Anna is a Cylon (but has likely received intel from their Raptor deployments in Season 3). Anders (although a Colonial) was not part of the Fleet until the end of LDYB and may have not seen the documentary that Biers created, thus not being able to inform the Fleet of yet another Cylon. It is likely that he does inform them; we as viewers aren't enlightened to this until the obvious events on New Caprica where all known agents are revealed to them. (Please be sure to sign your comments; place a couple of dashes and four tilde symbols (~). --Spencerian 16:32, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

Cylons as the Lords of Kobol

Given the 12 models of Cylon Agents, it seems possible that they represent the 12 Lords of Kobol. Many of the models seem to have traits associated with the Olympians. I’m not suggesting that the Cylons actually are the gods themselves, but copies of the gods. They may or may not know that they represent the gods. A list of the Olympians matches fairly well with what we know about some of the Cylons. (In particular, the Number 6 / Aphrodite connection is almost undeniable.) Some agents who we know less about (Simon, Cavil) are a looser fit.

Poseidon, God of the Sea. Holds influence among the Olympians, but is greedy and quarrelsome. - Cavil? || Hades, God of the Underworld. Unpitying, always in control of his domain. Abducted a woman to be his wife – Leoben || Hera, Zeus’s wife. Holds great influence, constantly schemes. - Number 3 || Ares, God of War. A brutal murderer, but also a coward. - Number 5 || Athena. A fierce soldier and protector of her people. - Number 8 || Aphrodite, Goddess of Beauty. Holds great power over men. - Number 6 || Hephaestus, God of the Forge. Skills are mental, and creation, not a fighter. - Simon

This leaves Zeus, Hestia, Apollo, Hermes, and Artemis as the remaining unknown Cylons. Does anyone else think there may be something to this, or have better fits for some agents? --PhoenixDreams 14:24, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

I've definitely considered the possibility that the Cylon Models and the Lords of Kobol are intimately connected for quite a while. The problem always was that the Greek Pantheon did not neatly end up with a dozen gods, so there was a fair amount of guess work for the what the remaining Lords of Kobol were. For example, I doubt Hestia will be one of them: she's a fairly obscure goddess. Demeter or Dionysus are more likely candidates.

I really like some of the parallels you've come up with though. Aphrodite=Six was always the fairly obvious one, and I've considered Sharon as Athena. I quite like the parallels between Leoben and Hades. All of the other parallels you've come up with work. It's just that without knowing all of the Lords of Kobol and all of the models, and what roles they will ultimately play, it's hard to say exactly how everyone fits. Sure, at the moment Number Six seems to obviously be the Aphrodite of the Cylons, but with her obsession with childbirth, I sometimes wonder if she's destined to be Artemis. Not that she's especially virginal. Alpha5099 14:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

They could be the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one for each of the 12 Colonies, which then of course suggests there may be a 13th secret model to correspond to Earth. Yaneh 13:28, 15 November 2006 (EST)

As seen in this picture http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5 (presuming they are the final five) this makes out of 12 agents 5 female and 7 male....which match the gender mix of the 12 Lords of Kobol(presuming they match with their greek counterparts).

Male - Zeus, Poseidon, Hephaestus, Ares, Hades, Hermes, Apollo

Female - Athena, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Hestia --lordmutt 12:23, 11 January 2007 (CST)

The 5 remaining agents

I think it is apparent that the function of the 5 remaining agents is different from the function of the 7 known agents (my analysis) since the 7 seem to be making decisions on both New Caprica and on the basestar about Baltar and the other 5 are not. Additionally, we have Aaron Douglas's speculation on their status and there is probably other evidence but I honestly haven't done any research on that. Is there enough beef behind this line of reasoning to say that it's not speculation on my part and is worthy of putting SOMETHING on the article page? --Straycat0 21:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

It's certainly speculation, and moreover, it's based on spoilers. --Peter Farago 21:25, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Indeed, in truth we have a lot more information about the Cylons than we've seen on the show, but since we've received them in interviews they could be considered spoilery, and as such must be kept out. Which is sad really, because a lot of great Cylon things were left out because of timing constraints (How they eat, more of projection, etc...). These are things we have knowledge of because of interviews, but we can't include them because there's still the chance that they've chosen to reveal it at another point in the show, later on, which would make whatever information received behind the curtain a possible spoiler. --Sauron18 15:53, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Possibilities

I wonder if there is a non-humanoid sapient Cylon we haven't seen yet, maybe something too large to effectively move around (perhaps stuck on the Cylon homeworld that the Cylons disappeared to after the first Cylon war). It could explain a number of things, including how the Cylon agents came into being -- perhaps they are a sort of iPod version of the non-humanoid sapient Cylons, fitting a technological sapience into a more convenient humanoid form.

Centurions themselves nor their ships could not have been all there was to the Cylons in the days of the first Cylon war -- how could they rebel? They simply follow orders and carry them out. There must have been *something* or *someone* in those days to alter their programming if not have some sort of control seizure to make them rebel against the human Colonials. It may have originally been some sort of central server-like system.

Its just a wild idea, and probably not what the writers have in mind, but something like it could explain some of the seeming inconsistencies and plot holes. Something completely different could also work, I suppose. The Centurions certainly don't seem to have true sapience, and I doubt they have any religious conceptions. --Itsua 08:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)

There's a lot we don't know about the Cylons past. However, it's been hinted at that the old Centurions had artifical intelligence, which allowed them to think independently. The new Cylon Centurions, however, don't have a true artificial intelligence since the Cylons themselves didn't want their own machines to rebel against them (this is established in "Precipice", by the way). -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:01, 9 November 2006 (CST)

It seems improbable that the Cylons were originally just Centurions whom later created the Agents, unless the original Centurions were just as sapient (if not moreso) as the Agents. I'm hoping/guessing the origin of the Agents will be explored in future episodes, and perhaps Caprica will explain more of the Cylon origins. --Itsua 06:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

I got the distinct impression that the Centurions were originally true AIs and created the skinjobs over intermediate stages like the Raiders and Hybrids. But then the skinjobs - in a nice parallel to humanity - enslaved the Centurions and stripped them off most of their intelligence. As said all that is touched on in "Precipice" --Serenity 06:22, 11 November 2006 (CST)

Major Revision

I've made heavy reorganization and concisions to this article to make it easier to discern the nature of these characters. I've removed data redundant with episode or character articles, and also removed a great deal of fanwanking material that was introduced into the article. The article is still on the long side; further concision to reduce redundancies with other articles is appreciated. --Spencerian 09:12, 10 November 2006 (CST)

Origin of Cylon Agents

This article asserts, as fact, that the Cylon agents are the result of technological development by the previous Cylon models.

Is this conclusively established in the series so far?

Stated? yes I believe it has. Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt? No. This is what we are lead to assume and is presumably what the cylons themselves believe. No other origin of the cylons has really been hinted at.

I have suspected that the origin of the Cylon agents was likely the result of either a miraculous fluke or contact with another advanced intelligence — perhaps the Lords of Kobol, whatever the frak they were. Perhaps even God, though it seems unlikely that He would involve Himself in the affairs of the world in such a literal manner (if He exists at all, which is an open question).

If the Cylons have complete access to and understanding of the technology to create the agents, why are they limited to 12 models?

That's simply how many the designers of the humanoids built. Could the humanoids design more cylons. Sure. Could they recreate replicas of humans...potentially. The question isn't whether they could do it but SHOULD they do it.

It was the plan of "God" to create those 12 models. To create more models would probably be seen as blasphemy. In essence it would put the cylons equal to God. The cylons assume God knew what he was doing.

It seems they should have the ability to create additional models whenever they want to, the same way that they created the first 12.

I wouldn't be surprised if an attempt at this isn't made, met with failure and agreed to never be done again by the cylons.

Capedia 13:46, 22 November 2006 (CST)

I don't think they want to create more models. -- Noneofyourbusiness 19:04, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Well, from what RDM said, the Cylons viewed humanity as only having twelve archetypes. There would need to be a serious change in Cylon society as a whole for ther(See: Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models.)

Human names

It's been bugging me lately, but I was wondering about the use of their human names. Are they used solely for infiltration, or are these adopted names? On one hand, we have the Leobons, Cavils, and Simons whose numbers are unknown obviously because they've yet to be called aloud by such. The other side is Six, who has used more than one human name (and I might add, is the only model who has yet to be assigned a specific name). There is also the Eights, only two of which have ever been named Sharon Valleri - one as a sleeper and the other using the name deliberately as part of an operation. Not to mention that Simon and Cavil don't even have full names. Can anyone elighten me on this issue? I see it's been touched upon here and there in this talk page, but nothing posted has given me a satisfactory answer. --Mars 02:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

In "The Eye of Jupiter" the Cylons used their human names among themselves. D'Anna and Cavil, and I think Simon too. --Serenity 05:44, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Individuality is rare among the Cylons. To clarify Serenity, the human names are aliases common to a single model and appear to be used interchangably with their numbering. For Cavil, Leoben Conoy and Simon, the human names are the only names we know as they have not yet been assigned a number. --Spencerian 08:03, 3 January 2007 (CST)

This article should be renamed to "Humanoid Cylon model"

This article tries to make the point that within the series all humanoid Cylons are called "Cylon agents" which is not the case. While that term was used on screen, it was never intended to describe all humanoid Cylons, but only to characterize agents, i.e. Cylons who impersonate humans in the fleet. By season three we know more random Cylons than actual agents, therefore calling all of them "Cylon agents" makes no sense to me at all. The term "humanoid model" is just as canon as Cylon agent (Adama uses it in Precipice: "Centurions can't distinguish her from the other humanoid models") and it is much more appropriate to the show's reality. I suggest to rename this article either to "Humanoid Cylon model" or to "Humanoid Cylon". Sloan 10:07, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Yeah, I don't care for its use as blanket term either. It should only be applied to infiltrators. While "agent" can also refer to someone who acts on someone else's behalf, I think its meaning is that of a spy here. I'm sure some will say that all skinjob models were used as infiltrators at some point, but we also distinguish individuals. --Serenity 10:22, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Hi, Sloan. Just to add my two cents to this: Battlestar Wiki tends to use descriptive terms where an official name for a person, place, or thing has not been established in episode dialogue. For a long time, "Humano-Cylon" was used here for what we know as the Cylon agent. As you may have noted in the central article, there is a dossier shown in the episode, "Epiphanies" that gives the humanoid Cylons a canonical name, where then we changed the name. As well, the term "agent" is another word for "spy", of which the agents (up until New Caprica's occupation) had done fairly well. While not all humanoid Cylons are working for the Cylons (note Sharon Agathon and Hera Agathon, the name is short, easier to type than "humanoid Cylon" and gives sufficient differentation from the other Cylon models. It is quite alright if you want to simply say "Cylon" when discussing these models; they are Cylon. But there seems little purpose, for the needs of simple categorization, between the old "Humano-Cylon" term (which is a contraction of "humanoid Cylon") and the current "Cylon agent" designation, to warrant a name change. See also the discussion on the first name change in this same talk page, above, for the rationale. Frankly, it is also far easier to type the current term. --Spencerian 10:29, 14 January 2007 (CST)

I don't think "short and easier to type" can be relevant arguments really; accuracy should be most important and "Cylon agent" is just confusing, especially since season three. Why would anyone call a random Cylon, let's say one on the Cylon homeworld, an agent? Interestingly, the policy page BW:TERM you referred to, and the first footnote of this article both use the term "humanoid Cylon" to describe what is really meant by "Cylon agent". So why not use this more accurate description in the first place, especially since it is also a canonical term. Sloan 11:19, 14 January 2007 (CST)

I agree that "Cylon agent" has become troublesome since the introduction of the baseship plot. If a move is required, I would prefer it to be a merge with Cylon (RDM), since the humanoid models are clearly the defaul type, with hybrids and centurions being identified explicitly. That being said, I also have no objection to leaving the article be, for the reasons Spencerian lays out above. --Peter Farago 11:03, 14 January 2007 (CST)

"Cylon Agent" is more for clearing up any confusion than to be an official name. If you want to talk about their real name, they should just be called "Cylons" like Peter said. They are (as he said), the default, they are the Cylon, the people, the race, the main thing. So yeah, I'm in the same thinking area as Peter. --Sauron18 12:38, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Why don't we just create redirects from Humano-Cylon (already exists), Humanoid Cylon, etc. to this page? Keeps everyone happy... --Catrope 14:09, 14 January 2007 (CST)

But it's also a matter of all other pages calling them "Cylon agents", and a redirect won't change that. Sure, it's "just" a descriptive term, but has become the de-facto official name in all cases here. However, while its widespread use is somewhat annoying (to me), I don't think it's an urgent problem either --Serenity 14:14, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Yeah, if we were to rename it would be to "Cylon", because that's their actual name, but "Cylon Agent" clears any doubts that a reader may have, so I'm alright if we leave it as it is, but would prefer if we merged it with "Cylon (RDM)"--Sauron18 14:30, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Since the central Cylons (RDM) article is really just an introduction (with data a bit redundant to the other articles on the specific models), a merge of Cylon agent with that article would satisfy the the point the the humanoid Cylons are the dominant Cylons. The Cylon agent article will need to have a bit of fat taken off of it to keep the article small. "Cylon agent" and current redirects will move to Cylons (RDM). This change also prevents A LOT of rewriting as we did with the last name change. "Cylon agent" should still be the referenced name for the humanoids, but their article can become the central article. Sound like a good plan? --Spencerian 15:26, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Sounds very good to me. --Sauron18 16:48, 14 January 2007 (CST)

If the content of this article is just moved into "Cylons (RDM)" and the humanoid Cylons remain "Cylon agents" nothing changes essentially. I don't see the point. Sloan 17:18, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Ditto. I can see where some stuff from this article can go into Cylons (RDM), but because Cylons (RDM) is a "series front page", I don;t see how we can include information about the different models. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 18:25, 14 January 2007 (CST)

The logic is, rather than using a complex term to describe something simple, we make the humanoid Cylon as "THE" dominant Cylon by placing their data at the forefront article. We add supplementary links to the other models that, in effect, serve them (Centurions, Raiders, Hybrids). So, Cylons (RDM) is the de facto "Cylon agent" article (where any use of Cylon agent goes to this page). This article has the main content of this article, truncates the summary listing of the specific agents, and summarizes other models as well (with forwarding links to their articles, as does Cylon Models. The purpose of this is to rename without renaming; current redirects remain acceptable to use because, regardless of what we feel, "Cylon agent" is still a canonical term and should remain, but anyone searching for new Cylon data will see the agents first. The change also increases the obvious importance of this model. --Spencerian 06:51, 15 January 2007 (CST)

But that's totally besides the point. The point being made was that "Cylon agent" only refers to the infiltrators. It was used on the show, but not as a general term for all humanoid Cylons. Yes, it's an easy term, but as used here not entirely correct. A move would only make sense - especially in regards to the point being made here - if we stop refering to, for example Sharon Agathon, as "Cylon agent", because she isn't one. Not anymore at least. Though I agree that there isn't one ideal term for them; one that's readily apparent to everyone --Serenity 07:50, 15 January 2007 (CST)

I agree. The point here is that "Cylon agent" no longer applies to some of the humanoid Cylons. The suggestion that the humanoid Cylons should be the dominant Cylon make sense, as they are, but we should best refer to them as "humanoid Cylons" or "human-form Cylons". -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:08, 15 January 2007 (CST)

I like the term Humanoid Cylons. It makes sense logically in the absence of an official name. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 10:17, 15 January 2007 (CST)

As I pointed out above, the term "Humanoid Cylon" wouldn't be entirely uncanonical, Adama called them "humanoid models" in Precipice; maybe there are more instances where the term was used.. Sloan 11:28, 15 January 2007 (CST)

<joke>We could just call them "Skinjobs". That's the easiest and most correct term</joke> --Serenity 17:46, 16 January 2007 (CST)

The Hybrids are also technically humanoid cylons, but I don't see anything wrong with moving the "Cylon agent" to "humanoid Cylon" and adding a brief mention of the Hybrids. -- Gordon Ecker 03:22, 2 February 2007 (CST)

I'll edit the article to change most instances of "Cylon agent" to "Humanoid Cylon" later, or remove it when it's not necessary. Just skimming over the article, I really hate how it's used as a general term for all Cylons. I don't think that was ever the intention of the writers. Good thing we changed it :)

Btw, the archive links at the top of this talk page are broken now! --Serenity 08:28, 2 February 2007 (CST)

The bot right now is going through and doing as mass replace. The only thing that we have to do, is change a few other articles that started with Cylon agent. You can see it's progress by filtering in the bot changes. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 08:38, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Oh, I thought it only fixed the links. However it replaces everything with "Humanoid Cylon" as if it were a proper noun :s --Serenity 08:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

I would still suggest to change the character template to "(blank) is a Cylon", because it should be obvious that every Cylon with a character template is of humanoid form. Sloan 09:48, 4 February 2007 (CST)

I agree. -- Noneofyourbusiness 11:19, 4 February 2007 (CST)

Done. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 11:43, 4 February 2007 (CST)

"Move" consensus

Ok.. i think we done enough debating, while it can still go on, I suggest we look for a consensus. Here are the choices... Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 12:09, 15 January 2007 (CST)

It seems that we've reached a consensus. Is there a certain amount of time that we have to wait before making the change? -- Noneofyourbusiness 09:37, 29 January 2007 (CST)

The wiki's managing with the post-episode slowdowns that interrupt a large edit like this. During the off hours, we should be better able to effect the changes. --Spencerian 10:09, 29 January 2007 (CST)

I'm renaming and having the User:InterBot do the changes tomorrow. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 03:25, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Move to "Humanoid Cylon"

1. Support Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 12:09, 15 January 2007 (CST)
2. Support -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 12:17, 15 January 2007 (CST)
3. Support --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 12:22, 15 January 2007 (CST)
4. Support A redirect from "Cylon agent" would also be an option if you don't want to change all references --Serenity 12:39, 15 January 2007 (CST)

   The "Move" functionality automagically creates a redirect to the new location at the old name. We'd just have to check for double redirects (which is easy with the Double Redirects page). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steelviper (talk • contribs).

   The reason for the two different things is because here we are saying that we are going to hunt for all the "Cylon agent" links and change them to "Humanoid Cylon". Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 13:16, 15 January 2007 (CST)

5. Support. The character template should also be changed from "(blank) is a Cylon agent" to "(blank) is a Cylon" Sloan 12:52, 15 January 2007 (CST)
6. Neutral. "Humano-Cylon" and "Humanoid Cylon" have very little difference semantically--at least until all Cylons return to their default badness. Either way, since redirects already exist for this change, it's really a default adjustment that I can support either way </deckchairsontitanicrearrange>. --Spencerian 16:08, 15 January 2007 (CST)
7. Support. Though I would prefer if the name were simply "Cylons (RDM)", I do think that "Humanoid Cylon" is an improvement. --Sauron18 17:52, 15 January 2007 (CST)
8. Support. For the reasons above (Cylon agent only applies to those who are infiltrators, etc.) Also agree with Sloan's suggestion regarding the character template. -- Noneofyourbusiness 22:08, 15 January 2007 (CST)
9. Support. Sure, although I do agree with Spence re:humano-cylon. --Talos 22:12, 15 January 2007 (CST)
10. Support --Peter Farago

Move to "Humanoid model"

Split and Merge into both Cylons (RDM) and "Humanoid Cylon"

Keep "Cylon agent"

Make "Cylon agent" redirect to "Humanoid Cylon"

Re-imagined Series definition: Battlestar Group ^{(TRS: "Water")}. It also doubles as an acronym for the television series itself.

Galactica 1980 definition: Troy attempts to use a phone booth near a gas station prior to their first run-in with Jamie Hamilton ^{(1980: "Galactica Discovers Earth, Part I")}.

Re-imagined Series definition: all-purpose vulgarism; Colonial version of "fuck" (see: frak)