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Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5: Difference between revisions

Discussion page of Timeline (RDM)/Archive5
Latest comment: 14 years ago by Joe Beaudoin Jr. in topic Real-world events within the timeline?
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m Text replacement - "Primusphoto.jpg" to "Youngadamafamily.jpg"
 
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{{archive-header
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 01
| archivenumber = 1
| number = 1
| number = 1
| start = July 28th, 2005
| start = July 28th, 2005
| end = November 31st, 2005
| end = November 31st, 2005
| items =  {{archive-item|01|Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness}} {{archive-item|01|Home II}} {{archive-item|01|Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons}} {{archive-item|01|Untangling Season 2|end=y}}
| items =  {{archive-item|1|Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness}} {{archive-item|1|Home II}} {{archive-item|1|Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons}} {{archive-item|1|Untangling Season 2|end=y}}
|}} 
|}}  


{{archive-header
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 02
| archivenumber = 2
| number = 1
| number = 2
| start = January 7th, 2006
| start = January 7th, 2006
| end = March 22nd, 2006
| end = March 22nd, 2006
| items =  {{archive-item|02|6 months?}} {{archive-item|02|Duration of Home, Part I}} {{archive-item|02|Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies"}} {{archive-item|02|When is the Presidential Election?}} {{archive-item|02|Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes}} {{archive-item|02|The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded"}} {{archive-item|02|Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note}} {{archive-item|02|Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I"|end=y}}
| items =  {{archive-item|2|6 months?}} {{archive-item|2|Duration of Home, Part I}} {{archive-item|2|Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies"}} {{archive-item|2|When is the Presidential Election?}} {{archive-item|2|Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes}} {{archive-item|2|The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded"}} {{archive-item|2|Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note}} {{archive-item|2|Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I"|end=y}}
|}}
 
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 3
| number = 3
| start = March 22nd, 2006
| end = November 19th, 2006
| items =  {{archive-item|3|Timeline Image}} {{archive-item|3|Days v. Day}} {{archive-item|3|Dating "The Captain's Hand"}} {{archive-item|3|Future Events}} {{archive-item|3|"Circa:" the enemy of all anal historians|end=y}}
|}}
|}}


== Timeline Image ==
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 4
| number = 4
| start = November 19th, 2006
| end = February 27th, 2007
| items =  {{archive-item|3|Timeline Image}} {{archive-item|4|the Colonial calender}} {{archive-item|4|The Hero Continuity Discrepency}} {{archive-item|4|Unfinished Business}} {{archive-item|4|Justification of the change of the timeline}} {{archive-item|4|Episode timeline slight adjustment}} {{archive-item|4|Major Cleanup Needed}} {{archive-item|4| I propose to shift "Lay Down Your Burdens Parts I & II" over about 10 days.}} {{archive-item|4|Another Colonial Date in "Precipice"}} {{archive-item|4|Split Idea}} {{archive-item|4| Ancient history|end=y}}
|}}
 
== Adama meeting Saul ==
 
Adama and Saul have said on several occasions that they've known each other for 30 years. Why does this article say they met 20 years before the attacks? Shouldn't it be 30? {{unsigned|Zethon}}
:[[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques#Adama/Tigh Meeting|According to Bradley Thompson]] he is exaggerating, and it's closer to 23 years. Maybe a note about that would help. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:20, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
::Definitely note it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 16:35, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
:::[{{fullurl:Timeline (RDM)|diff=127013&oldid=118059}} Already did so] :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:42, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 
=="Hero" Timeline Issues, revisited==
The alterations to the established timeline made in "[[Hero]]" continue to be problematic, and have allowed portions of [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Felix Gaeta]]'s articles to be contaminated with what I consider to be fancruft.
 
'''To review:'''
All materials prior to "[[Hero]]", as well as [[Sources:Adama's Dossier|Adama's Dossier]] from that episode, indicate that Adama had served on ''Galactica'' for several years:
*Gaeta: "And may I also take this opportunity to say it's been both a pleasure and an honor to serve under you these past three years." ([[Miniseries]])
*Tyrol: "Sir, on behalf of Deck Crew Five I'd like to present a token of our esteem and appreciation for the many years you've served as commanding officer of this ship." ([[Miniseries]])
*Adama: "Chief Tyrol's been under my command for over five years" ([[Litmus]])
 
No indication is made that either Gaeta or Tyrol served under him on any other ship than ''Galactica''. In fact, when listing the ships he's served on in the past, Tyrol fails to mention ''Valkyrie'':
*Tyrol: I've served on battlestars since I was 18 years old. The Pegasus, Columbia,  Atlantia, Galactica-- ([[Resistance]]).
 
In real-world militaries, it would be quite remarkable for lower-ranked officers like Gaeta and NCOs like Tyrol to transfer from ship to ship with their commander. The long-running team of Tigh and Adama is remarkable as it is.
 
The timeline provided by [[Sources:Adama's Dossier|Adama's Dossier]] fits very well with the information above, placing his service on ''Valkyrie'' from -9 to -6 years BCH, and his service on Galactica from -6 to 0 years BCH. This is enough time for both Tyrol and Gaeta to have served with him for five and three years respectively, on ''Galactica'', and enough time that Tyol's comment about the "many years you've served as commanding officer of this ship" makes sense.
 
Problems ensue when we try to take the dialogue from "Hero" into account:
*Adama: "That's right. He's one of mine. Disappeared about three years ago. We think that he was captured."
*Novacek: "Well, sir, it's like this. The enemy had me locked in a cell for three years."
*Roslin: "About a year prior to the Cylon attack on the Colonies, you were on a mission with Admiral Adama. Is that correct?"
*Thrace: "Novacek was held on a baseship for three years[...]"
 
All this indicates that Adama was transferred to ''Galactica'' on -1 BCH, which demands that (a) Tyrol and Gaeta served with him on ''Valkyrie'' and transferred with him to ''Galactica'', and (b) completely invalidates Tyrol's statement from the Miniseries about Adama's lengthy command of ''Galactica''.
 
My preference here is to simply throw out the dialogue from "Hero", and put Bulldog's aborted mission at -6 BCH - "three years ago" should be changed to "eight years ago", and "about a year prior to the Cylon attack" should be changed to "about six years prior...". Where relevant, the contradiction should be footnoted.
 
The alternative, attempting to reconcile Gaeta and Tyrol's backstory with Adama's, is impossible, and should not be attempted. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 16:15, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
 
:I couldn't agree more. ''Finally'' someone points that out. Usually I don't take printed documents like that at face value, because there are small errors in a few them. But as you said, other evidence always indicated that Adama served on ''Galactica'' for a few years. Not just Tyrol's very explicit line, but also how others like Gaeta and Kelly act around him. "Hero" messed that up, but I always chose to see it as an error in dialogue. For me it makes more sense to place the Stealthstar mission at maybe 8 years or so before the series. Thinking that Tyrol ('''and''' Gaeta!) followed him from ''Valkyrie'' to ''Galactica'' just complicates things unnecessarily. It's beyond me why the more silly way was chosen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:23, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
::It's clearly a mistake by the writers, but I'm skeptical about us choosing new dates for events as opposed to those established (however misguidedly) onscreen, this seems like just another form of fancruft. As Mr. Farago states, it is impossible to reconcile without delving into fancruft territory, so how about we just "teach the controversy", adding short notes and linking to an article explaining the discontinuity. My personal opinion is that [[Adama's Dossier]], with its two seconds of screentime, was not intended to have been taken as seriously as we tend to do here, it having been just [[Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques/Archive8#Battlestar_Night_Flight.2F.28Era.29smus|produced quickly by the art department]], without significant guidance from the executive producers.[[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:43, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
::Frankly, the contradictions should be noted. I agree to "teaching the controversy", as OTW suggested, noting the discrepancies in the appropriate articles. "Hero" is a big error when looking at the overall picture, but one that we can't ignore by simply "throwing out the dialogue", which is like throwing out the baby with the used bathwater. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 19:55, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
:::I'd normally agree. It seems absurd to let a prop visible for two minutes overrule four lines of episode dialogue, and our continuity policy, which I personally promulgated, favors newer content over older in the face of conflicting evidence. I'm loathe to make an exception, since that leads to a slippery slope, but I feel like we can get away with it here for a couple reasons:
:::*In addition to the dossier, there are at least five episodes corroborating the earlier version, vs. just Hero in favor of the later version.
:::*The early version is integral to Tyrol's backstory and can't be reconciled with the later version.
:::*As a "one-off" not connected to the overall story arc, it seems unlikely that Novacek or the events of "Hero" will be referenced again.
:::In light of this, I feel comfortable making the Miniseries/Litmus/Resistance/Dossier (and, as I noted some time ago in [[Talk:Hero/Archive1#Possible_Discontinuity]], "Act of Contrition" and "The Farm") consensus the "official" version, and footnoting the "Hero" version. If necessary, a separate page explaining the particular continuity glitch and our policy to it could be drafted and linked. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 01:22, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::That seems about right, how about this compromise: In articles relating to [[Hero]] we use the "Hero version", footnoting the "official version" and then in the rest of the wiki do the opposite. If Battlestar Galactica isn't entirely self-consistent, Battestar wiki doesn't need to be either. We know that RDM values a lot of things above continuity. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 04:40, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::Sad, but true. That said, we have the opportunity to consistently document inconsistencies. While RDM is more bound to his muse and to storytelling, I say we throw in our lot with accuracy, consistency, and concision (anf if things occasionally get a little foot-notey we can live with it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 05:29, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::It's infinitely more absurd to assume that both Tyrol and Gaeta followed him to ''Galactica''. I cringe every time I read that somewhere. But it's not just about his dossier. Dialogue in the Miniseries heavily implied, if not established, that he served on ''Galactica'' for several years. Then there are several dates in other episodes. I really don't understand this rule that there can't possibly be an error in dialogue. This isn't the only case where things were bent around so that the dialogue can stay as it is. Yeah, the prop/art department has made some errors in the past, and ones that can easily be ignored, but this is a case were their stuff fits (though I agree that it's taken a bit too seriously now and then) and the writers contradicted their own work. Usually people throw up their arms at the slightest hint of fanwanking and then something like this gets approved by everyone...
::::As for the "[[Hero]]" page. We can leave the "three years" in the summary and then explain the error in Analysis. All other pages use "eight years" with a footnote for the explanation and maybe a link to that section. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:53, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::The pages [[Daniel Novacek]], [[Valkyrie]], [[Stealthstar]], [[Corman]] and [[Armistice Line]] currently are, and should remain, corresponding primarily to the 'hero timeline' as their information is almost entirely derived from ''Hero''. The question is, do articles such as [[William Adama]] assume his tenure on Valkyrie happened 6 BCH (which makes big assumptions about the state of the Cylons, and also means that the Stealthstar incident occurred '''before'''' humaniod cylons were violating the line) or kinda pretend it didn't happen at all? We could make the text deliberately vague about the actual timeline and then add: "There are conflicting sources on how long Adama spent on Galactica before the Cylon Holocaust, see [[Hero timeline discontinuity]]" or similar notes where relevant ''in the main text'' to make it clear. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 09:00, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::I don't see the problem in moving the date and footnoting it, explaining that we chose to ignore the date given in "Hero" in favor of a lot of other onscreen evidence. If we kept the "three years" in the main text, we'd need to make a footnote anyways to stay consistent. So there is not much of a difference either way. The ''Valkyrie'' page in particular needs to be changed because it says that Tyrol and Gaeta served there with Adama.
::::::Moreover, moving "Hero" a few years earlier actually gives Adama's doubts about his role in the conflict more weight. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:20, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::This sounds good to me, OTW. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 10:18, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Good to see someone bringing this up. I to have been cringing every time I read that Tyrol and Gaeta came with Adama from the Valkyrie as a way of reconcilling that. It just doesn't happen in the militaries that RDM and Co. use for inspiration. I like OTW's idea, that would work pretty well, as long as we cleary spell out the differences, maybe include a link to a section of the Hero or Timeline page that deals with it. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:30, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
 
=== Vote ===
 
Ok, there are several possibilities on how to address this. Maybe we should just vote instead of having a long discussion. There are two sections 1/2 and a/b which complement each other. One is ''what'' to write, the other is ''how''. So vote on 1 or 2 '''and''' a or b.
 
==== Option 1 ====
 
Leave the dates as they are and just note the discrepancy in a footnote and either option a or b.


I been working with a cool program that does a timeline bar. . I can even make it clickable if SVG files are enabled. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 12:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
==== Option 2 ====


:I doubt that the visual aid will benefit this article. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:40, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
Change the dates (except in the "[[Hero]]" summary) on pages like this one, [[William Adama]], [[Daniel Novacek]], [[Stealthstar]] and [[Valkyrie]] to 6BCH/"eight years ago" as per the dossier '''and''' earlier dialogue evidence, thus considering "Hero" dialogue an error. Then footnote that as per option a or b to explain that decision.


:: In it's very impomplete form. Just giving an idea. Once i figure out all the parmaters then I will post a more realisisc bar. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 12:43, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
*{{support}} As said, I don't think it's in any way logical to accept dialogue just because it came later even though it's clearly wrong. We don't just go by a 2-second prop, but by earlier dialogue as well. If you disagree, I think option 1 is a fair alternative that preserves some of the status quo. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:20, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Serenity said it all, don't have anything to add here but that I agree. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:35, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Just because the show is inconsistent doesn't mean that we he have to be. As long as we document our assumptions clearly (so that the reader knows exactly what info is coming from where) I don't think it's misleading or too presumptive. The alternative is a set of pages that says "A", a set of pages that says "not A", and then a bunch of footnotes pointing to the discrepancies. It reads smoother just to say "A" (or "not A") and then note the particular places that didn't jive. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 23:04, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} I agree with Steelviper that we should try to keep as much intra-article consistency as possible. Since there are two versions of the timeline, we mention the most logical one (6BCH) in the article body, while noting the alternative (1BCH) in a footnote. If we run into any new timeline discontinuities, we should act in the same way. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:10, 23 October 2007 (CDT)


<br clear="both">
==== Option a ====


== Days v. Day ==
Create an own page similar to [[Season two timeline discontinuity]] which contains an explanation with earlier dialogue evidence and can be linked to. This prevents lengthy and duplicate footnotes on every page.


I am very confused. I am working on the timeline image, and days are driving me nutz. Days are like 46 days. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 and so on... and day is a single day right? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 15:32, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
==== Option b ====


:There's not much meaningful difference, we switched from "46 Days" to "Day 46" about halfway through season one and never corrected the older entries. Side note - your timeline right not indicates that "33" spanned five days, but it really only took place over about three hours at the end of day 6. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:05, 24 April 2006 (CDT)
Put a section at the beginning of [[Hero#Analysis]] which can be linked to. Also prevents duplicate footnotes


==Dating "The Captain's Hand"==
*{{support}} I think this is the easiest solution. I'm against an own article as the issue is relatively small and can easily be explained in the episode article. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:20, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Agreed, this would be easiest and the least intrusive way of doing this. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:36, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Simpler is better. A discontinuity article is going to have very low visibility (in terms of being searched/accessed). A footnote in a higher visibility article gives the information a wider audience, and it is easier to find (so long as the footnote is located within a logical article). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:59, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
**{{comment}} I meant mainly where to store the overall information (in an own article or on the "Hero" page). I'd create a footnote behind every mention of the date. Like "While "Hero" places the date at 1 BCH, this conflicts with earlier dialogue. For a detailed analysis see..." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:49, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
*{{support}} Since this discontinuity isn't as big and doesn't span as many episodes as the S2 one does, it doesn't have to be in its own article. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 09:05, 23 October 2007 (CDT)


"Epiphanies" and the Cain Trilogy take place at Six Months after the Cylon attack.  It's stated that mining operations in "Scar" lasted one month.  It's stated that one month passes between "Sacrifice" and "The Captain's Hand".  It's stated that the next episode, "Downloaded", is 9 months post-attack.  Start at Six months, plus 1 for "Scar", plus 1 for stated gap between Sacrifice and Captain's Hand, Captain's Hand takes place at least 8 months post-attack.  *****Do we have any idea whatsoever how much time passes between Captain's Hand and Downloaded?  Because I'm going consider it just "0ver 8 months" I guess.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:47, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
:Nevermind, LDYB I firmly dates Captain's Hand as 1 month before it.  --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:57, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
::Yep. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:16, 11 July 2006 (CDT)


==Future Events==
== "Scattered" re-re-re-visted ==
Is it possible to delete the furute events that have a line through them? I really don't see the point of keeping them.--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:07, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:You know, I kind of like the 'timeline graveyard.'  It shows what issues arose and that the show is taking care of them in one way or another.  ...  Now, better organizing/displaying it is another matter.  That lineout stuff is none too pretty. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 14:33, 23 October 2006 (CDT)


== "Circa:" the enemy of all anal historians ==
Sorry to beat this dead horse again. Since we're now taking the dossier at face value, I've tried to change all dates to it. In  general it fits, but it places Adama's reinstatement into the Fleet at 23 BCH and his assignment to ''Atlantia'' at 17 BCH. For the Tigh/Adama meeting we go by the podcast note that the meeting took place 20 years ago. Is there anything that says we have to take this literally and can't place it at 23 BCH? And then assume that Adama re-joined the Fleet in the same year? In fact the 23-year date is used on [[Carolanne Adama]], so the timeline isn't consistent with our other articles.


Now that LDYB II and the beginning of season 3 has provided us some hard dates, I would really appreciate it if someone (Bart voice: "Not me!") rigorously checked the dates of the events of LDYB II and OccupationFrom there, it would be relatively easy to accurately sequence the webisodes and subsequent season 3 episodesI just sped through Occupation/Precipice/Exodus to get their timelines at least worked out, but we're in a bad place that pretty much everything after the Cylon arrival starts with "c. Day ###" - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 14:28, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
And what's the source for placing Tigh's reinstatement two years later? I know this is mentioned in the Tigh article, but it's not directly from the episode I think. Going by the [[Saul Tigh]] footnotes, it seems to come solely from the BSG magazine. Also, as it is now, it doesn't make sense that Adama got assigned to ''Atlantia'' with the rank of major 11 BCH. Because we know that he's a major when he gets Tigh back into the Fleet.
 
We could change it to this:
*23 BCH:
**Adama and Tigh meet
**Adama reinstated into the Fleet in the same year (so noted in dossier: 54-31=23)
*17 BCH:
**Adama assigned to ''Atlantia'' makes his thousands landing (AoC), gets promoted to major
**Gets Tigh back into the fleet.
The only point I'm unsure is the time between Adama's and Tigh's reinstatement and the quoted two years. The dossier says "Major: Battlestar Atlantia". Maybe that means he was a major on ''Atlantia'', not that he was promoted to the rank on it. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:21, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
:The document is unfortunately only a short list of Adama's accomplishments in the fleet.  It would seem to me, although I'm not certain, that the list is only comprehensive to the point of reassignments, not promotionsIn the Navy, it is equally common for an officer to be promoted aboard ship as well as with reassignment, although for higher level positions (such as Commander and Captain), it is increasingly more likely to recieve promotion with reassignment.  So I always assumed that Adama was recommissioned as a major, although there's not really any proof of that is there (which begs the question, what was he doing for those six years?)This episode is a continuity nightmare by the way.--[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 14:59, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
::He was recommissioned as captain and Viper pilot. That's said explicitly in a deleted scene from "Scattered". The dossier doesn't really contradict on screen information as such, as "Scattered" is pretty vague about dating. We have the "20 years" from the podcast, but that can easily be a rounded value. As said, the two years between Adama's and Tigh's reinstatement comes from the magazine I think, but we usually treat that as "valid until contradicted". So we could either extend that period to 6 years, or we could keep it as two years and assume that Adama got promoted earlier (at the moment I'm favoring that).
::This probably comes down to simple choice unless someone recalls some more information. So we could decide on one, and footnote the alternative. Probably the best way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:05, 25 October 2007 (CDT)


:I know circa is ugly, but we can't clean anything up. We know when Cylon occupation began relative to the settling of New Caprica, and we know when Season 3 opened relative to the occupation, but the settling of New Caprica itself is only known to have taken place in the vicinity of nine months after the fall of the colonies. Thus, we are stuck with the "circa". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)
:::My reading is that Adama serves on the tramp freighter from -37 BCH to some point prior to -23 BCH (per the dossier). He meets Tigh in -28 BCH (per "Torn", in which Adama calls Tigh "The man that I've known for the past thirty years"). He is recomissioned in -23 BCH, rank unknown. Tigh is recomissioned in -21 BCH (two years later, per the magazine), by which point Adama holds the rank of major (per the cut scene in "Scattered"). The dossier entry for -17 BCH indicates his transfer to Atlantia, not a promotion. His thousandth landing (on Atlantia, per "Act of Contrition") must take place shortly afterwards.
:::We can date Adama's marriage to Carolanne as follows: Zak dies in -2 BCH (Miniseries). He probably graduated from some kind of military academy, which would make his age at least 22 following the U.S. model. That puts his birth at roughly -24 BCH. From Adama's [[: Image:Youngadamafamily.jpg|photo]] with his two sons, Lee looks about two years older, putting his birth in -26 BCH.
:::So, I think everything makes perfect sense here. The flashbacks in "Scattered" span seven years from -28 BCH (Adama and Tigh's first meeting) to -21 BCH (Tigh's reinstatement). Adama's comment about meeting Tigh 30 years ago in Torn fits nicely. He probably married Carolanne in -26 BCH, at which point he would have quit his job on the freighter to start a family, and resumed military service three years later, when Zak was old enough to leave with one parent. The only date that has to be fudged is Moore's comment that the "Scattered" flashbacks take place 20 years ago, and this is both the most vague and least reliable piece of information that we have to consider. --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 18:55, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
::::That sounds good :) I agree that we shouldn't necessarily take behind-the-scenes info over on-screen evidence. Though it can be made fit either way.
::::Two comments though: First, Adama's rank is known from a deleted scene. He starts as captain as well. Second, Adama didn't quit his job with marriage. When he gets the news that he is reinstated, Tigh states "the new wife pulled through". And the two are still on the freighter. The Adamas married while he was a freight monkey and then he joined the Fleet rightaway. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:29, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::Nice analysis, all. If we take the "twenty years ago" as a vague statement that could also mean 23 years, Peter's reading fits pretty much perfectly (adjusting it for what Serenity pointed out above, of course). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 05:57, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::Well, right now we have the meeting at 28 years. We could also place it at 23 years and assume that Adama got recommissioned in the same year. Both versions work, but 28 years fits better with the line that they've known each other for 30 years. This part of the timeline isn't such a mess as some make it out to be. The only major reshuffling is the ''Valkyrie'' mission.
::::::Also regarding Tyrol's "ten years" comment. That might be a rounded value - people often think in 10, 15, 20 years - so I put that as "circa". --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:37, 26 October 2007 (CDT)


== the Colonial calender ==
== Ancient History ==


Since '''Hero''' has revealed how the Colonial calender counts it's years and the the "current" year is 21,356 the timeline should be updated.  ([[User:Alphaboi867|Alphaboi867]] 19:27, 19 November 2006 (CST))
*'''4,000 years BCH:''' The Thirteenth Tribe reportedly leaves the planet Kobol, later leaving a beacon in space and building the Temple of Five (The Eye of Jupiter)[1]. At some undated point, something travels from Earth to Kobol, passing on information about Earth, including a map of its night sky.  
: I disagree with the usage of these dates, particularly in lieu of [[:Image:Execution Order Signature.png|the document Baltar signed]] in "[[Precipice]]". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:53, 19 November 2006 (CST)
*Indeed, the document gives that particular day as "3454-91". -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)
::There's even a different (third) timekeeping system used on Adama's letter of resignation in "Hero". The Dossier is useful for pinning down relative dates, but I don't think we should read too much into the calendar system. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:25, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::There's also a not-so-clear chart on Laura Roslin in "Epiphanies", which was located at the foot of her sickbay bed. We see this briefly and it is blurry enough not to make out specific numbers, but said document appears to be using a different dating structure as well.  Also, given the [[Cimtar Peace Accords]] documents and [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]] in the mini-series, the documents should be treated with a healthy skepticism. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)


Another thought... in general, I have to say that we should probably avoid using in-universe dating, and go with keeping the dating system as simple as possible (using the Fall of the Colonies as a baseline). Since there is more than enough evidence thus far proving that the in-universe dating system is inconsistently applied, I believe using this would only lead to horrible inaccuracies, the bane of any reference's existence. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)
This would be clearer if these 3 items were seperated. The virus on the beacon is an exact match of a virus reported 3000 years ago. This is a major clue in the series and should be given more importance as opposed to being mentioned in passing the way its written here. Also it need to be specified that the Temple is *radio carbon* dated to 4000 years.


==The Hero Continuity Discrepency==
Quote Adama to Roslin "According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol"
Given the amount of discussion it has generated on other BSG websites I have been surprised to note that the enormous continuity errors in Hero haven't been discussed here. Namely the error that Adama was on board Valkyrie 1 year before the attacks and was given command of Galactica afterwards as a retirement posting, yet in You Can't Go Home Again he states that he has commanded Starbuck "On THIS ship," for more than 2 years. There's also the problem that he served with Tyrol for 5 years (and Tyrol listed all of the battlestars he served on in Resistance and Valkyrie wasn't one of them), Gaeta for 3 years prior to the attack, Boomer for 2 years and Captain Kelly for some time as well (didn't he say 2 years as well in the mini?). I can see Adama taking Tigh with him from Valkyrie to Galactica, but 5 other crewmen as well? And a fairly random selection at that (a flight operations officer, a bridge officer, a nugget, a pilot, a deckhand, assuming Tyrol was in a more junior post at that time)? Plus only Tigh and Adama knew Bulldog. Starbuck and Tyrol seemed to have no idea who he was.


To add to the chaos, Adama seems to genuinely believe that he could have sparked the Attack on the Colonies. This is impossible as Adama served with Boomer for 2 years prior to the Attack, thus the Cylons were infiltrating the Colonies 1 year before the Valkyrie mission and Adama knows this. By itself, this seems to indicate that the Valkyrie mission must take place considerably earlier than it is claimed.
Quote Tyrol to Adama "Our initial radio carbon dating suggests the temples at least 4000 years old which lines up with the exodus of the 13th tribe"


Possible solutions:
This is potentially confusing since the exodus of the 13th tribe is anything from 3000-4000 years ago (if 13th tribe and 13th colony are to taken as the same thing!). The virus itsself adds more confusion, since it was an exact match then the assumption is that its the same virus since a virus will mutate pretty fast but you would think that in space it is in suspended animation. Therefore its not entirely clear that this quote is saying the beacon is 3000 years old
1) Adama was in charge of Galactica and went to Valkyrie to do this one special mission, requesting that Bulldog and Tigh go with him. UNLIKELY: Tyrol, Starbuck and Athena should still have recognised Bulldog (they missed a trick by not having Bulldog bump into Athena, recognise her as a Cylon and freaking out btw). Bulldog definitely was not on Galactica before as he wanted to know what Adama was doing on such an old ship. This is still problematic as Boomer's presence would tell Adama that the Cylons were already infiltrating the Colonies, thus his mission had nothing to do with the Attack.


2) The producers forgot about the year on New Caprica, so the Valkyrie mission was actually 2 years before the Attack. However, this causes problems in that Adama had still served with Gaeta and Tyrol by that point. Moving it back to 3 years before the Attack (meaning the producers forgot about the year on New Caprica and nine months the series spanned before that as well, which seems ludicrous) only gives us Tyrol to worry about and that can be explained by Tyrol being on Valkyrie (and serving on the other flight pod to the one Bulldog used and being in a junior position, so he never worked with him) and going with the Old Man to Galactica (and forgetting to list Valkyrie among his previous posts). That seems to be fine. The only problem with this is that this means that Bulldog was a prisoner of the Cylons for SIX years, not three, a very considerable difference.
Since the "undated" fact is undated, it should be moved outside of the timeline but still within the Ancient History section or preferentially removed entirely since it borders speculation.


Solution: There isn't one. At least with the last big screw-up (Flight of the Phoenix) it was possible to come to a conclusion by saying that episode took place over two to three months. With this problem, it seems totally self-contradictory (I wonder if RDM didn't do a podcast for this episode simply because he realised how messed up the timeline was).
I would suggest that it reads as follows...


EDIT: I just found some discussion on the Hero episode page, which basically seems to reach the same conclusion I did: there isn't an explanation except the dialogue in this episode is plain wrong. Oh well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 16:24, 26 November 2006 (CST)
*'''4000 years BCH:''' The Temple of Five is built by the 13th tribe [1]
<br/><br/>
*'''4000 - 3000 years BCH:''' The 13th tribe/colony leaves Kobol [1] [2]
*If we're supposing that the current year is 21356 (based on Adama's 45 years in service beginning in 21311), this is the only explanation I've found that works in the timeline:
*'''After 3000 years BCH:''' The beacon is left behind by the 13th colony [2]


:*D6/21311 First commission: Battlestar Galactica fighter squadron
The [1], [2] points to the two quotes listed above.
...
:*C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
:*C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica
...
:*''21353 Commissioned for Valkyrie mission/Bulldog captured/Adama sent back to Galactica to retire (this wouldn't be on Adama's service record)''
:*''21354 Cylons attack the 12 Colonies''
:*''21356 Bulldog returns/Adama awarded medal of distinction.''


'''Further explanation:''' Since the time frame is fuzzy, it could be explained in retrospect that Adama had already fallen out of favor with the Admiralty and been stationed on Galactica for 5 years before they gave him one final chance to return to his old ship and crew. If he succeeded, he'd resume command of the Valkyrie; if he failed, he'd gracefully retire with Galactica. He failed, but this time took Tigh with him. Bulldog was asking Tigh how ''he'' ended up on Galactica, not specifically Adama. This fits the dialogue AND the timeline, and would not appear on the service record due to it being a black-ops mission. --[[User:Empire279|Empire279]] 19:56, 9 December 2006 (CST)
Its not exactly clear in which order these occured but it represents the facts as we know them. It is very important that this timeline is listed as clearly as possible since it may well be one of the most crucial bits of information in the show. Although it is commonly assumed that the 13th tribe left Kobol, left a beacon and then built the temple it is not clear from these 2 quotes that this is the correct order of events. You can create other orders based on these quotes so I think its important that preconceptions aren't written into the description of events and the ordering of these events is left up to the reader - as the show intended. --[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 16:21, 4 January 2008 (CST)


== Unfinished Business ==
:How crucial it is depends on one's preferences. Mine are entirely elsewhere. Anyways, that's what footnotes are for. It's true that it should be left somewhat open, and it's a topic that was always unclear, but it has to be put in ''some'' order for the purpose of the article. Footnotes can give the sources and some explanation, so that the reader can decide what to make of it. They can't be too long, but 1-3 sentences are usually enough to convey the information. I changed it to make the beacon date more ambiguous, but that's said in the footnote. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:59, 4 January 2008 (CST)
I just got done with this episode and it confused me a little over the timeline so I came here to try to clear it up, but I find I'm just further confused.


The events at the groundbreaking were 17 months before the episode and 8 months before the Cylon occupation of New Caprica. What confused me at first was since The Resistance covered the 4 months after the occupation, the exodus from New Caprica must have taken place 12 months after the groundbreaking, meaning the fleet has been traveliing again for 5 months. This didn't seem right to me, though I don't think there's anything essentially wrong with it - I just felt like it had been a shorter time.
12tribes leaving Kobol 2000 years ago is wrong...


But when I came here to try to clear it up I ran into this:
Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, o­n the order of approximately 2,000 years.
Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol.
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 19:54, 5 January 2008 (CST)
:There are many contradictory quotes on that one. There is a quote that says 2,000 years (you mentioned it), there is one that says 3,000 and one that says 4,000. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 03:57, 6 January 2008 (CST)


Day 660 (380th day since settlement): Cylon forces occupy New Caprica.  
Its only a contradiction if you make the assumption that the 13th tribe left only once  - also nobody has ever said that there was only ever 1 thirteeth colony. Although its never been stated, the modern day cylons themselves are obviously a 13th colony/tribe since they have their own homeworld.


If this happened a year after the order to settle New Caprica (as shown in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]), that would lead me to believe that the order was given on day 300. And that the grounbreaking was on day 420 (8 months before the occupation). But the timelime has these fixed at about Day 285 and Day 315 respectively.
Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial
estimates have it, uh, o­n the order of approximately 2,000 years.  
Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol.  


The date of the settlement order isn't that bad - a difference of 15 days from what I expected could easily be rounded off to 1 year. But the groundbreaking listed at day 315 doesn't make any sense to me given the jump of one year in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] and the fact that the groundbreaking was 8 months before the occupation ([[Unfinished Business]]).
Notice the use of the term "first", also 13 tribes left Kobol, they aren't neccessarily saying the the legendary "Thirteeth Tribe" was one of them.


Can anyone shed any light on this?
Adama: Why the Scroll of Pythia?  
Roslin: Pythia is supposed to have chronicled the original journey of the 13th Tribe o­n
its way to Earth.


[EDIT] I thought about this a bit more, and while I was a little surprised at the dates involved, I think the biggest problem is why the groundbreaking for the colony is a full four months after the order to settle on New Caprica - something that is simply a problem from the show itself, and not something a timeline can work around.
Notice the use of the term "original" - if there was only one journey then this term would have no meaning and therefore would be pointless to include it.


--[[User:Jp Corkery|Jp Corkery]] 06:16, 7 December 2006 (CST)
Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years
ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol"


:Was it the groundbreaking for the colony of New Caprica City itself (which was already being settled) or for some building or structure there? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 13 December 2006 (CST)
Chief: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years
old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 07:43, 6 January 2008 (CST)
:The 13th Tribe "'''first''' left Kobol" 2,000 years ago, but also left 3,000 and 4,000 years ago? Now ''that's'' a contradiction... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 08:06, 6 January 2008 (CST)
::Yep. There is a deliberate retcon or dialogue error somewhere; or both. It's possible to reconcile two of the three dates; for example by assuming that part of them left Kobol earlier to build the temple and that the rest left later with the other tribes. But the third will contradict each two you chose. Taking all the dialogue literally and reconciling all three dates is impossible without some serve mental contortions. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:31, 6 January 2008 (CST)


:I too assumed it was the groundbreaking of some random building. However, the (unofficial) transcript says:
They don't say the 13th tribe left 2000 years ago, they say 13 tribes left. Sorry to keep banging on about the same point and to a certain extent I am inclined to believe its an error of some kind, more likely the history of the colonies has been changed by the writers before season 3 but I don't believe its a script error since Boomer says the same thing...
:"(Baltar breaks ground o­n the settlement to the sound of applause and cheers; Jammer and Duck are there.)
:Baltar: Thank you. Let this day be remembered as the day we broke ground for our new tomorrow."
:I don't know. His rhetoric definitely sounds a bit grandiose for an administration building or a hospital (not to mention having the big party that was thrown). Troubling... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:45, 13 December 2006 (CST)


:I too believe it was for the settlement as a whole and not just a building, perhaps it was a little of both. The ground breaking could had been for the first '''''permanent''''' building for the settlement on [[New Caprica]] as opposed to mere tents and huts. At any rate, we are give hard dates in which to measure the passage of time and I agree that the non flashback events of [[Unfinished Business]] takes place five months after the events of [[Collaborators]], I think that was the last time we were given a hard and fast date before Unfinished Business ("three days after the Second Exodus"). Also, I don't think it was just two days after the events of [[Hero]] that the events of Unfinished Business happened. I don't think after the bad beating Adm. Adama got at the hands of Lt. Novacek he would climb into a boxing ring just two days later, I don't think Doctor Cottle would allow it. I feel at least a week if not two seems more reasonable. And for the record I think it was more than a few days between Unfinished business and [[The Passage]]. I think two weeks at least feels more comfortable for the Colonials to detect the problem and then conduct a search while the fleets previously processed non contaminated food supply that people had in their cubbards and refrigerators a chance to deplete. From the looks at when Lee Adama, Starbuck and company wolfed down their remaining food it was a considerable amount of time between finding the problem to near starvation. It must be noted no matter what, Galactica is on a different time flow than we are. After all there have been only about 8 episodes (treat [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]] & [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|II]], [[Occupation]] & [[Precipice]] and [[Exodus, Part I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]] as three two hour episodes each) between the events of [[Downloaded]] and the birth of [[Hera]] (aired May 2, 2006); and the events in [[The Eye of Jupiter]], when Athena learned that she was still alive (aired December 15, 2006). Only eight months have passed in our time but that is two years elapsed time in Galactica's timeline at least. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:57, 21 December 2006 (CST)
Boomer: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your god supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down o­nto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes.  


:When I watched I thought that it was the first permanent building as well, as opposed to provisional tents. And that they used that ocassion for a general celebration --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:04, 22 December 2006 (CST)
Even at that point in the series it was clear that the exodus of 13 tribes resulted in 12 colonies (on Kobol pre miniseries, later changed to 12 planets). So the writers knew that there were 12 colonies and yet twice they say 13 tribes left Kobol.
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 07:15, 7 January 2008 (CST)
:Well, with the first twelve populating the colonies, and the 13th going in their own direction. The (legendary) 13th tribe was one of the tribes. The only reason they're legendary (and not just a plain old tribe) is that they went in a different direction and the rest of the tribes (now colonies) lost track of them. The exodus of the 13 tribes would coincide with the exodus of the 13th tribe. It looks like the exodus was a single event... they just can't seem to keep their dates straight (whether it's 2, 3 or 4K years). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 7 January 2008 (CST)


==Justification of the change of the timeline==
RON MOORE COMMENTARY
8/26/2005 -- This notion of the constellations is something that I came up with. I wanted to connect it to our present day mythology of the Zodiac. The show is replete with symbols and references to Zodiacal things. Somehow, these names for these Colonies are not random, there is a connection, and here's the connection. That these people of the thirteenth tribe looked up into the sky and made up these constellations and assigned them to their brethren, the lost tribes. (source: The Home, Part II podcast)


I have just edited the time line from the benchmark Day 285 to 315 as outlined in the previous [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] timeline post. It is assumed by the previous person that posted it that the Colonials begin to land on New Caprica for permanent settlement in the thirty days between day 285 and day 315. I essentially split the difference and say they began to disembark civilians to the planet on day 300. That is day one of the settlement of New Caprica not when Baltar did the ground breaking ceremony, which I calculate to be approximately four months later or approximately day 420; that is Day 300 + 120 days=420. Now I derived this because the first flash back of [[Unfinished Business]] gave the dates "17 months ago, 8 months before the Occupation" or words to that effect. At the end of '''Lay Down your Burdens Part II''' a Doral unit said they spotted the light of Gina's nuclear blast that left the Fleet the year before. Now the Cylons may be derived from machines, computers, but they have not demonstrated that they are as exacting in speech and time measurement as the android Lt. Commander Data was or the Vulcans Spock, T'Pol, Tuvok were, or the former Borg "7 of 9" was in the various '''Star Trek''' series, so they estimate like humans. On the other hand also like humans I don't think they would round off eight months into a year. A full four months or 120 days is being chopped off doing that, so I believe when Doral said they noticed the blast of light that came from the vicinity of New Caprica a year ago (from the Colonial's perspective), I believe he means just about a year, give a week or two less or more than a year, not a full four months less than a chronological year. Also, I don't think it took four months for the Cylons to figure out where the blast came from. Just follow the flash of light and make a bee line for the source. From that, if the Cylons landed almost exactly a year later, then that ground breaking ceremony was four months after the first settlers landed on New Caprica since the occupation was stated to be eight months (240 days) in the future. From there, we know that the occupation lasted only four months (120 days) before the Exodus. That places the Exodus almost exactly one year after the ground breaking by Baltar on New Caprica. So you have 12 total months (385-365 days) of settlement in freedom on NC, then four months of occupation for a total of approximately 16 months or approximately 420 days.
You can't read much into Adama's 3000 year quote since he says "over 3000" years and he is talking about a virus, not exactly the beacon and since its unknown how the virus behaves in space, how long it takes to mutate into something different and even how long it took for the 13th tribe to get to the LionHeads nebula you can't really say anything for sure about how this fits into the timeline.
   
   
In '''Unfinished Business''' it was stated that the events of '''Unfinished Business''' happened 17 months-about 510 days-after the ground breaking and eight months-240 days-before the occupation. Combine that with the total length of the occupation, four months or 120 days, that would mean that from the point of the ground breaking to the Exodus it is almost exactly 1 year or 12 months or 360-365 days in time.
You also agree that at some point "someone" travelled from Earth to Kobol therefore the most obvious solution, which assumes no script errors is as follows
 
Now you have approximately 17 months (approximately 510 days) from the ground breaking on New Caprica to '''Unfinished Business'''; minus approximately 12 months (365 days) from that groundbreaking to the events in [[Collaborators]] (which was three days after the Exodus); which equals approximately five months or 145-150 days left. That means that five months since the Exodus has elapsed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. Now some of the dates are not exact given that some of them are estimates, especially the two week window the previous time line gave for the settlement of NC given previously: "Between c. Day 285 and c. Day 315". I as noted settled on day 300 that the settlement started allowing for the Galactica crew to do a two week survey of the location of New Caprica City.But the start of the settlement process could had started as much as two weeks later and still be plausible to meet Doral's "we noticed the nuclear blast in the time it took for light from it to reach us" explanation. However, given the hard dates we are given. It can be safely derived that five months have passed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''.  
4000 years: Exodus of 13th tribe who then built the Temple
 
# Got to Earth
# Named the constellations after their "lost" brothers
# Went back to Kobol, with information on the Temple and the constellation map
 
2000 years: The "reunited" 13 tribes left Kobol to form 12 colonies
 
Surely this is the correct way to read the storyline. It makes no assumptions, requires no errors in the script, has no contradictions and interpets the quotes *exactly* as written.
 
Your just getting confused with "13th tribe" which reference one tribe, and "13 tribes" which references all 13.
 
--[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 07:37, 7 January 2008 (CST)
:Except that if it happened that way, then the knowledge of where the 13th tribe went would be with the twelve colonies (since people who had been to earth would be among the twelve colonies). The tribes always have seemed to correspond to the colonies, so having a thirteenth in the mix would upset the pattern. What's really affecting my thinking (and likely the thinking of others) is the way the exodus pattern unfolded in TOS. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:24, 7 January 2008 (CST)
 
The knowledge IS with the 12 colonies, the constellation map, the knowledge of the Temple, the chronicle of the original journey also bear in mind that when the 13th colony got to Earth, the other 12 tribes were (according to RON MOORE) considered "lost" --[[User:Swozie|Swozie]] 08:29, 7 January 2008 (CST)
:This timeline seems to make sense. Maybe we should try asking Brad or MrsRon whether this timeline is correct and there were actually 2 exoduses. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 08:58, 7 January 2008 (CST)
 
== "Lost Time", and other notes... ==
 
I think we should really note that there are various "lost time" events (i.e. "Flight of the Phoenix", "Downloaded", and even those inferred by "He That Believeth In Me") that we should note. Further, I think it would be wise to point out that there might be inaccuracies in this timeline that can never be rectified due to the lack of definitive information. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 22:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
:I thought "Downloaded" was cleared up on the DVD release? --[[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] 03:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 
==BCE occurences==
 
[http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=BCE&go=Go This search] gives 10 occurences of the BCE style, all of them in infoboxes on characters making it to Earth.
 
Sure the series ends with the note that all these events are supposed to be in the distant past from our perspective, culminating in the long-past settlement of our planet.
 
However, shouldn't at least the infoboxes if not the articles alltogether remain within the confines of the series chronology, i.e. use BCH?
 
Also, there is a spoiler problem. By adding BCE to all these infoboxes, all these articles give away that Galactica cannot be finding our contemporary earth.
 
Finally, the date in question - and note it's the same date on every page is purely an estimation. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 
: We should not be using BCE at all, since there is nothing that states that the Colonial Calendar lines up exactly with the Earth calendar. Please remember that the Earth calendar has been revised several times in human history, so we've never had a consistent calendar to begin with anyway. As there is no direct correlation between an Earth year being the same as a Colonial year, and as such we should keep all times in BCH (Before Colonial Holocaust) or ACH (After Colonial Holocaust). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 14:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
::Well, there is a link between the two systems as the ending of the series is .... years before our present. But that is revealed only in the last few moments of the show and should not form the basis for dates given here. It does make more sense to say Lee Adama died x years after the Cylon holocaust.  
::That the Earth calendar (actually is not one Earth calendar) has been revised is of no consequence however, as a) it makes little no differences to the years, b) BC is merely our present Gregorian calendar calculated backwards. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 15:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
:::That is the only link. There is nothing that supports a direct correlation between how the Colonial calendar works and the Earth calendar (i.e. a Colonial year could be 380 days or more, as seems to be supported by Caprica occuring only ''50'' years before the Fall and not the 52-53 needed, if we're going by the 4,571 days that the First Cylon War took). And yes, the calendar has been modified since its inception as we learn more about the rotation of our planet and other factors, and there are vast differences between the two calendars that cause discrepancies. Just look at the Julian calendar versus the Gregorian calendar. Since we do not know what the discrepancy is between the Colonial calendar and the Second Earth (our real-life) calendar, we should just do away with the whole BCE thing in terms of the BSG universe, since it adds a level of error and complication we do not need. This is something that I honestly do not believe that RDM will ever explain, since that's not how RDM really works at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
::::We are basically on the same side on the actual issue: do away with BCE.
::::We only disagree about little things you said or rather about their relevance to this issue. As I said, there is no "the Calendar" on earth. Earth rotation only commands the day and that has been pretty much stable.
::::I agree that is probably a discrepancy between year-lengths and day-length if directly compared to ours. TOS was certainly more "realistic" on that account.
::::Back to the issue: can you suggest a ACH wording to replace the current BCE one. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::I'll go even further.... There's no reason to note they died at all, since that's really a given and there were no special circumstances to their death. There really is no reason to use "died sometime after XXX ACH" in the infobox at all, since you would have to do that to '''every''' infobox for '''every''' character who survived up to the arrived at the new Earth. We should really leave the death section of infoboxes for confirmed deaths, not assumed. However, that's a topic for another talk page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 22:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::Actually you are right. After all, the whole Wiki variously works under the "state as of the last episode" mode, talking about deceased characters - but from the perspective of 150,000 years later all would be deceased. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 08:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Absolutely. The only definitive evidence of anyone actually dying is [[Hera Agathon]]! All the other deaths should be logically assumed, barring some extremely odd and supernatural event. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 
:These are supposed to be 150,000 Earth years, aren't they? That's the time given in the article Ron is reading. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
::So this is how the 148,000 BC numberes originates: 150,000 years minus 2,000 years.
::'''My proposal is change the current text to ''"died after the settlement of New Earth in ... ACH"''.
::How many years after the Cylon Holocaust does the series end? Our season timelines (which actually are not timelines at all) do not help in this. The best estimation I have is based on a comment during the mutinty, which talks about "fighting the Cylons for four years" - that this fits with the four seasons is probably no coincidence.
::So how about  '''''"died after the settlement of New Earth in 4 ACH?"'''''
::[[User:Str1977|Str1977]] 09:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
:::The BSG timeline is wonky and wrought with various contradictions; Tom Zarek made a reference for "five years" in Season 4, there's that one year gaffe in "Hero", and "Caprica" (along with "Razor") introduces some delightfully fun inconsistencies of their own. As I said earlier, I'm not fond of noting deaths in infoboxes unless absolutely confirmed. We can assume that every one of the 38,000+ survivors (or, indeed, anyone else in the series) is well dead, buried and rotted to nothing after the 150,000 jump. This being the case, we can either make a carte blanche note that everyone died sometime after the discovery of the Second Earth (which is easy enough to do directly in the infobox's syntax itself), or simply leave the field blank in the infobox. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


Incidentally I do disagree with the closeness of events in episodes as outlined after '''Collaborators'''. It seems that the original person who did it thinks the episodes happen within two or three days of one another. I don't think that is the case. As I just shown there is a five moth gap of time between '''Collaborators''' and [[Unfinished Business]], plenty of room to spread out the three episodes in between-[[Torn]], [[A Measure of Salvation]] and [[Hero]]. I think there is a need for a gap particularly between '''Hero''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. I don't think Adama would climb into a ring two days after being beaten so badly by Lt. Novacek. A gap of at the very least of a week should be there; more like two weeks. Even more so, I also think that there is a wide gap between '''Unfinished Business''' and [[The Passage]]. I don't think the Fleet would reach starvation levels within a month of the discovery of the contamination. They would need time to find a suitable planet as well. However, I did leave the two day gaps between episodes since I don't have any alternative time line regarding that, just common sense. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 10:13, 21 December 2006 (CST)
== Real-world events within the timeline? ==


:I'm sorry, I can't stand by this. The Day 385 date was better in the asbsence of any knowledge to the contrary, and "Unfinished Business" does not supply that. The groundbreaking was explicitly not for the colony, which Dualla even remarked had existed for at least a month prior. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:22, 23 December 2006 (CST)
Since RDM has clearly stated on more than one occasion that the events of ''BSG'' lead to us in the real world, how do we handle real-life history within the confines of the timeline? For example, Admiral Adama scattered the survivors throughout the world at the end of "[[Daybreak, Part II]]." Real-life science and archaeology shows us that humans did ''not'' originate in or settle in any of those areas (except for the African area, where the survivors landed) 150,000 years ago. As such, should we make it clear in the articles that these survivors died out very quickly? Keeping with real-world history, that's precisely what would have taken place. (And their remains must've been rapidly devoured and scattered to bits by the local fauna!)


::I happen to agree with you that New Caprica was being settled long before Baltar stuck his shovel in the ground. I thought I made that clear before, but I didn't so I am re-editing my previous post (the one you are answering). And while '''Unfinished Business''' doesn't supply an exact date as to when the first settlers landed, I think the Doral unit who answered Baltar when the Cylons arrived gave us a good idea. In '''Lay Down Your Burdens Part II''' A Doral said that they noticed the light of Gina's Nuclear blast just about then, which is why it took them a year to show up at New Caprica, given the speed of light. In other words the Cylons were about a light year away when Cloud 9 blew up. Since it is almost certain the settlement of New Caprica started soon after (the civilians were just itching to get out of the "boxes" that were the spaceships), and by settlement I mean putting up the first tents and huts with civilians living in them, that means the settlement started a year before the Cylon invasion. It took a year for the light of Gina's explosion to reach the Cylons. The ground breaking took place eight months before the Cylons came or roughly four months after the first settlers arrived. Again, I speculate that the ground breaking was for a '''''permanent''''' building in New Caprica City, perhaps the Administration/Detention Center? Maybe its original purpose was to be the New Caprica City city hall? [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:29, 25 December 2006 (CST)
The same applies with Hera being described as Mitochondrial Eve, the MRCA. This is factually incorrect, as the MRCA existed much more recently than 150k years ago (more like between 10k and 50k years ago). Also, Mitochondrial Eve would be the most recent common matrilineal ancestor, anyway, not the MRCA. They're two different things.


== Episode timeline slight adjustment ==
I ask this because with any other science fiction series, it's all within an ''internal'' timeline, not connected to the real world. However, as I said, RDM has stated that the point of the show was to connect with the real world.


I spread out the episode incidences between day 800 of [[Collaborators]] and day 950 of [[Unfinished Business]]. I left the small time gap between [[Torn]] and [[A Measure of Salvation]] sincethe latter does occur very shortly after the former. In fact, I narrowed the gap between them to only one day. Again, I am trying to use common sense to get a feel as to when the episodes happened. From this I believe there was a gap of about two weeks between [[Hero]] and Unfinished Business because it would take about two weeks for Admiral Adama to recover from the beating Lt. Novacek gave him, but I think that beating gave Adama the idea of a boxing match to get the bile out of the system of the crew, seeing how "therapeutic" it was for both Saul and Novacek. Conversely I think only a day would be needed between the events of "Torn" and "A Measure of Salvation" to access the Cylons and formulate and execute a plan to recon the disabled Baseship. They don't want to wait too long less the Cylons come back.  [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 13:08, 22 December 2006 (CST)
So...how should this be handled? I hope I made sense. Thanks in advance for your input... -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 01:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:Good in principle, but I generally don't like guessing dates when we have nothing to go on. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:18, 23 December 2006 (CST)


::I understand what your concerns are, but I think it is better than stacking them back to back to back. That is even more unrealistic IMHO. Having them back to back etc. is no more realistic a representation of when those events happened than spreading them out, in fact less so. At least some thought goes into it using common sense like my idea of not having Adama climb into a boxing ring in "Unfinished Business" allegedly two days after getting a beating from Novacek in "Hero". At least put a two weeks of daylight between the episodes to give the 60-odd year old Adm. Adama time to recover. And the five month gap between "Collaborators" and "Unfinished Business" is much more than guess work, it is using the on screen data available. Three episodes to spread out over five months leaves a lot of room (especially for those who write Battlestar Galactica novels) and if my guesstimate dates are wrong they can be moved when canon information is available. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 19:19, 24 December 2006 (CST)
:Hmm. It's obviously not '''exactly''' like the real world. I think things where we don't know exactly what happened don't need mentioning. However likely something like "this settlement died out" may be, it's still speculative. There's no pressing need to fill in the part of the timeline between the penultimate and final scenes of Daybreak. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


:::I wasn't responsible for any of the proposed dates for the third season content, so please don't read me as defending whatever was there before you made your contributions. My only concern is that it be clear to viewers that the third season dates are complete guesswork, as opposed to some of the second season dates which can at least be inferred from dialogue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:28, 26 December 2006 (CST)
: Concur with Noneofyourbusiness. I do think that noting the facts that Liquidcross pointed out in the "notes" section or as references would suffice. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:25, 30 December 2023

Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness, Home II, Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons, Untangling Season 2


6 months?, Duration of Home, Part I, Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies", When is the Presidential Election?, Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes, The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded", Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note, Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I"


Timeline Image, Days v. Day, Dating "The Captain's Hand", Future Events, "Circa:" the enemy of all anal historians


Timeline Image, the Colonial calender, The Hero Continuity Discrepency, Unfinished Business, Justification of the change of the timeline, Episode timeline slight adjustment, Major Cleanup Needed, I propose to shift "Lay Down Your Burdens Parts I & II" over about 10 days., Another Colonial Date in "Precipice", Split Idea, Ancient history


Adama meeting Saul[edit]

Adama and Saul have said on several occasions that they've known each other for 30 years. Why does this article say they met 20 years before the attacks? Shouldn't it be 30? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zethon (talk • contribs).

According to Bradley Thompson he is exaggerating, and it's closer to 23 years. Maybe a note about that would help. --Serenity 05:20, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
Definitely note it. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New 16:35, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
Already did so :) --Serenity 16:42, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

"Hero" Timeline Issues, revisited[edit]

The alterations to the established timeline made in "Hero" continue to be problematic, and have allowed portions of Galen Tyrol and Felix Gaeta's articles to be contaminated with what I consider to be fancruft.

To review: All materials prior to "Hero", as well as Adama's Dossier from that episode, indicate that Adama had served on Galactica for several years:

  • Gaeta: "And may I also take this opportunity to say it's been both a pleasure and an honor to serve under you these past three years." (Miniseries)
  • Tyrol: "Sir, on behalf of Deck Crew Five I'd like to present a token of our esteem and appreciation for the many years you've served as commanding officer of this ship." (Miniseries)
  • Adama: "Chief Tyrol's been under my command for over five years" (Litmus)

No indication is made that either Gaeta or Tyrol served under him on any other ship than Galactica. In fact, when listing the ships he's served on in the past, Tyrol fails to mention Valkyrie:

  • Tyrol: I've served on battlestars since I was 18 years old. The Pegasus, Columbia, Atlantia, Galactica-- (Resistance).

In real-world militaries, it would be quite remarkable for lower-ranked officers like Gaeta and NCOs like Tyrol to transfer from ship to ship with their commander. The long-running team of Tigh and Adama is remarkable as it is.

The timeline provided by Adama's Dossier fits very well with the information above, placing his service on Valkyrie from -9 to -6 years BCH, and his service on Galactica from -6 to 0 years BCH. This is enough time for both Tyrol and Gaeta to have served with him for five and three years respectively, on Galactica, and enough time that Tyol's comment about the "many years you've served as commanding officer of this ship" makes sense.

Problems ensue when we try to take the dialogue from "Hero" into account:

  • Adama: "That's right. He's one of mine. Disappeared about three years ago. We think that he was captured."
  • Novacek: "Well, sir, it's like this. The enemy had me locked in a cell for three years."
  • Roslin: "About a year prior to the Cylon attack on the Colonies, you were on a mission with Admiral Adama. Is that correct?"
  • Thrace: "Novacek was held on a baseship for three years[...]"

All this indicates that Adama was transferred to Galactica on -1 BCH, which demands that (a) Tyrol and Gaeta served with him on Valkyrie and transferred with him to Galactica, and (b) completely invalidates Tyrol's statement from the Miniseries about Adama's lengthy command of Galactica.

My preference here is to simply throw out the dialogue from "Hero", and put Bulldog's aborted mission at -6 BCH - "three years ago" should be changed to "eight years ago", and "about a year prior to the Cylon attack" should be changed to "about six years prior...". Where relevant, the contradiction should be footnoted.

The alternative, attempting to reconcile Gaeta and Tyrol's backstory with Adama's, is impossible, and should not be attempted. --April Arcus 16:15, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

I couldn't agree more. Finally someone points that out. Usually I don't take printed documents like that at face value, because there are small errors in a few them. But as you said, other evidence always indicated that Adama served on Galactica for a few years. Not just Tyrol's very explicit line, but also how others like Gaeta and Kelly act around him. "Hero" messed that up, but I always chose to see it as an error in dialogue. For me it makes more sense to place the Stealthstar mission at maybe 8 years or so before the series. Thinking that Tyrol (and Gaeta!) followed him from Valkyrie to Galactica just complicates things unnecessarily. It's beyond me why the more silly way was chosen. --Serenity 16:23, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
It's clearly a mistake by the writers, but I'm skeptical about us choosing new dates for events as opposed to those established (however misguidedly) onscreen, this seems like just another form of fancruft. As Mr. Farago states, it is impossible to reconcile without delving into fancruft territory, so how about we just "teach the controversy", adding short notes and linking to an article explaining the discontinuity. My personal opinion is that Adama's Dossier, with its two seconds of screentime, was not intended to have been taken as seriously as we tend to do here, it having been just produced quickly by the art department, without significant guidance from the executive producers.OTW 18:43, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
Frankly, the contradictions should be noted. I agree to "teaching the controversy", as OTW suggested, noting the discrepancies in the appropriate articles. "Hero" is a big error when looking at the overall picture, but one that we can't ignore by simply "throwing out the dialogue", which is like throwing out the baby with the used bathwater. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New 19:55, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
I'd normally agree. It seems absurd to let a prop visible for two minutes overrule four lines of episode dialogue, and our continuity policy, which I personally promulgated, favors newer content over older in the face of conflicting evidence. I'm loathe to make an exception, since that leads to a slippery slope, but I feel like we can get away with it here for a couple reasons:
  • In addition to the dossier, there are at least five episodes corroborating the earlier version, vs. just Hero in favor of the later version.
  • The early version is integral to Tyrol's backstory and can't be reconciled with the later version.
  • As a "one-off" not connected to the overall story arc, it seems unlikely that Novacek or the events of "Hero" will be referenced again.
In light of this, I feel comfortable making the Miniseries/Litmus/Resistance/Dossier (and, as I noted some time ago in Talk:Hero/Archive1#Possible_Discontinuity, "Act of Contrition" and "The Farm") consensus the "official" version, and footnoting the "Hero" version. If necessary, a separate page explaining the particular continuity glitch and our policy to it could be drafted and linked. --April Arcus 01:22, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
That seems about right, how about this compromise: In articles relating to Hero we use the "Hero version", footnoting the "official version" and then in the rest of the wiki do the opposite. If Battlestar Galactica isn't entirely self-consistent, Battestar wiki doesn't need to be either. We know that RDM values a lot of things above continuity. OTW 04:40, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
Sad, but true. That said, we have the opportunity to consistently document inconsistencies. While RDM is more bound to his muse and to storytelling, I say we throw in our lot with accuracy, consistency, and concision (anf if things occasionally get a little foot-notey we can live with it). --Steelviper 05:29, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
It's infinitely more absurd to assume that both Tyrol and Gaeta followed him to Galactica. I cringe every time I read that somewhere. But it's not just about his dossier. Dialogue in the Miniseries heavily implied, if not established, that he served on Galactica for several years. Then there are several dates in other episodes. I really don't understand this rule that there can't possibly be an error in dialogue. This isn't the only case where things were bent around so that the dialogue can stay as it is. Yeah, the prop/art department has made some errors in the past, and ones that can easily be ignored, but this is a case were their stuff fits (though I agree that it's taken a bit too seriously now and then) and the writers contradicted their own work. Usually people throw up their arms at the slightest hint of fanwanking and then something like this gets approved by everyone...
As for the "Hero" page. We can leave the "three years" in the summary and then explain the error in Analysis. All other pages use "eight years" with a footnote for the explanation and maybe a link to that section. --Serenity 05:53, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
The pages Daniel Novacek, Valkyrie, Stealthstar, Corman and Armistice Line currently are, and should remain, corresponding primarily to the 'hero timeline' as their information is almost entirely derived from Hero. The question is, do articles such as William Adama assume his tenure on Valkyrie happened 6 BCH (which makes big assumptions about the state of the Cylons, and also means that the Stealthstar incident occurred before' humaniod cylons were violating the line) or kinda pretend it didn't happen at all? We could make the text deliberately vague about the actual timeline and then add: "There are conflicting sources on how long Adama spent on Galactica before the Cylon Holocaust, see Hero timeline discontinuity" or similar notes where relevant in the main text to make it clear. OTW 09:00, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
I don't see the problem in moving the date and footnoting it, explaining that we chose to ignore the date given in "Hero" in favor of a lot of other onscreen evidence. If we kept the "three years" in the main text, we'd need to make a footnote anyways to stay consistent. So there is not much of a difference either way. The Valkyrie page in particular needs to be changed because it says that Tyrol and Gaeta served there with Adama.
Moreover, moving "Hero" a few years earlier actually gives Adama's doubts about his role in the conflict more weight. --Serenity 09:20, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
This sounds good to me, OTW. --April Arcus 10:18, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
Good to see someone bringing this up. I to have been cringing every time I read that Tyrol and Gaeta came with Adama from the Valkyrie as a way of reconcilling that. It just doesn't happen in the militaries that RDM and Co. use for inspiration. I like OTW's idea, that would work pretty well, as long as we cleary spell out the differences, maybe include a link to a section of the Hero or Timeline page that deals with it. --Talos 13:30, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Vote[edit]

Ok, there are several possibilities on how to address this. Maybe we should just vote instead of having a long discussion. There are two sections 1/2 and a/b which complement each other. One is what to write, the other is how. So vote on 1 or 2 and a or b.

Option 1[edit]

Leave the dates as they are and just note the discrepancy in a footnote and either option a or b.

Option 2[edit]

Change the dates (except in the "Hero" summary) on pages like this one, William Adama, Daniel Novacek, Stealthstar and Valkyrie to 6BCH/"eight years ago" as per the dossier and earlier dialogue evidence, thus considering "Hero" dialogue an error. Then footnote that as per option a or b to explain that decision.

  • Support As said, I don't think it's in any way logical to accept dialogue just because it came later even though it's clearly wrong. We don't just go by a 2-second prop, but by earlier dialogue as well. If you disagree, I think option 1 is a fair alternative that preserves some of the status quo. --Serenity 16:20, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
  • Support Serenity said it all, don't have anything to add here but that I agree. --Talos 16:35, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
  • Support Just because the show is inconsistent doesn't mean that we he have to be. As long as we document our assumptions clearly (so that the reader knows exactly what info is coming from where) I don't think it's misleading or too presumptive. The alternative is a set of pages that says "A", a set of pages that says "not A", and then a bunch of footnotes pointing to the discrepancies. It reads smoother just to say "A" (or "not A") and then note the particular places that didn't jive. --Steelviper 23:04, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
  • Support I agree with Steelviper that we should try to keep as much intra-article consistency as possible. Since there are two versions of the timeline, we mention the most logical one (6BCH) in the article body, while noting the alternative (1BCH) in a footnote. If we run into any new timeline discontinuities, we should act in the same way. --Catrope(Talk to me or e-mail me) 09:10, 23 October 2007 (CDT)

Option a[edit]

Create an own page similar to Season two timeline discontinuity which contains an explanation with earlier dialogue evidence and can be linked to. This prevents lengthy and duplicate footnotes on every page.

Option b[edit]

Put a section at the beginning of Hero#Analysis which can be linked to. Also prevents duplicate footnotes

  • Support I think this is the easiest solution. I'm against an own article as the issue is relatively small and can easily be explained in the episode article. --Serenity 16:20, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
  • Support Agreed, this would be easiest and the least intrusive way of doing this. --Talos 16:36, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
  • Support Simpler is better. A discontinuity article is going to have very low visibility (in terms of being searched/accessed). A footnote in a higher visibility article gives the information a wider audience, and it is easier to find (so long as the footnote is located within a logical article). --Steelviper 22:59, 22 October 2007 (CDT)
    • Comment I meant mainly where to store the overall information (in an own article or on the "Hero" page). I'd create a footnote behind every mention of the date. Like "While "Hero" places the date at 1 BCH, this conflicts with earlier dialogue. For a detailed analysis see..." --Serenity 06:49, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
  • Support Since this discontinuity isn't as big and doesn't span as many episodes as the S2 one does, it doesn't have to be in its own article. --Catrope(Talk to me or e-mail me) 09:05, 23 October 2007 (CDT)


"Scattered" re-re-re-visted[edit]

Sorry to beat this dead horse again. Since we're now taking the dossier at face value, I've tried to change all dates to it. In general it fits, but it places Adama's reinstatement into the Fleet at 23 BCH and his assignment to Atlantia at 17 BCH. For the Tigh/Adama meeting we go by the podcast note that the meeting took place 20 years ago. Is there anything that says we have to take this literally and can't place it at 23 BCH? And then assume that Adama re-joined the Fleet in the same year? In fact the 23-year date is used on Carolanne Adama, so the timeline isn't consistent with our other articles.

And what's the source for placing Tigh's reinstatement two years later? I know this is mentioned in the Tigh article, but it's not directly from the episode I think. Going by the Saul Tigh footnotes, it seems to come solely from the BSG magazine. Also, as it is now, it doesn't make sense that Adama got assigned to Atlantia with the rank of major 11 BCH. Because we know that he's a major when he gets Tigh back into the Fleet.

We could change it to this:

  • 23 BCH:
    • Adama and Tigh meet
    • Adama reinstated into the Fleet in the same year (so noted in dossier: 54-31=23)
  • 17 BCH:
    • Adama assigned to Atlantia makes his thousands landing (AoC), gets promoted to major
    • Gets Tigh back into the fleet.

The only point I'm unsure is the time between Adama's and Tigh's reinstatement and the quoted two years. The dossier says "Major: Battlestar Atlantia". Maybe that means he was a major on Atlantia, not that he was promoted to the rank on it. --Serenity 09:21, 25 October 2007 (CDT)

The document is unfortunately only a short list of Adama's accomplishments in the fleet. It would seem to me, although I'm not certain, that the list is only comprehensive to the point of reassignments, not promotions. In the Navy, it is equally common for an officer to be promoted aboard ship as well as with reassignment, although for higher level positions (such as Commander and Captain), it is increasingly more likely to recieve promotion with reassignment. So I always assumed that Adama was recommissioned as a major, although there's not really any proof of that is there (which begs the question, what was he doing for those six years?). This episode is a continuity nightmare by the way.--OrionFour 14:59, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
He was recommissioned as captain and Viper pilot. That's said explicitly in a deleted scene from "Scattered". The dossier doesn't really contradict on screen information as such, as "Scattered" is pretty vague about dating. We have the "20 years" from the podcast, but that can easily be a rounded value. As said, the two years between Adama's and Tigh's reinstatement comes from the magazine I think, but we usually treat that as "valid until contradicted". So we could either extend that period to 6 years, or we could keep it as two years and assume that Adama got promoted earlier (at the moment I'm favoring that).
This probably comes down to simple choice unless someone recalls some more information. So we could decide on one, and footnote the alternative. Probably the best way. --Serenity 16:05, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
My reading is that Adama serves on the tramp freighter from -37 BCH to some point prior to -23 BCH (per the dossier). He meets Tigh in -28 BCH (per "Torn", in which Adama calls Tigh "The man that I've known for the past thirty years"). He is recomissioned in -23 BCH, rank unknown. Tigh is recomissioned in -21 BCH (two years later, per the magazine), by which point Adama holds the rank of major (per the cut scene in "Scattered"). The dossier entry for -17 BCH indicates his transfer to Atlantia, not a promotion. His thousandth landing (on Atlantia, per "Act of Contrition") must take place shortly afterwards.
We can date Adama's marriage to Carolanne as follows: Zak dies in -2 BCH (Miniseries). He probably graduated from some kind of military academy, which would make his age at least 22 following the U.S. model. That puts his birth at roughly -24 BCH. From Adama's photo with his two sons, Lee looks about two years older, putting his birth in -26 BCH.
So, I think everything makes perfect sense here. The flashbacks in "Scattered" span seven years from -28 BCH (Adama and Tigh's first meeting) to -21 BCH (Tigh's reinstatement). Adama's comment about meeting Tigh 30 years ago in Torn fits nicely. He probably married Carolanne in -26 BCH, at which point he would have quit his job on the freighter to start a family, and resumed military service three years later, when Zak was old enough to leave with one parent. The only date that has to be fudged is Moore's comment that the "Scattered" flashbacks take place 20 years ago, and this is both the most vague and least reliable piece of information that we have to consider. --April Arcus 18:55, 25 October 2007 (CDT)
That sounds good :) I agree that we shouldn't necessarily take behind-the-scenes info over on-screen evidence. Though it can be made fit either way.
Two comments though: First, Adama's rank is known from a deleted scene. He starts as captain as well. Second, Adama didn't quit his job with marriage. When he gets the news that he is reinstated, Tigh states "the new wife pulled through". And the two are still on the freighter. The Adamas married while he was a freight monkey and then he joined the Fleet rightaway. --Serenity 01:29, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
Nice analysis, all. If we take the "twenty years ago" as a vague statement that could also mean 23 years, Peter's reading fits pretty much perfectly (adjusting it for what Serenity pointed out above, of course). --Catrope(Talk to me or e-mail me) 05:57, 26 October 2007 (CDT)
Well, right now we have the meeting at 28 years. We could also place it at 23 years and assume that Adama got recommissioned in the same year. Both versions work, but 28 years fits better with the line that they've known each other for 30 years. This part of the timeline isn't such a mess as some make it out to be. The only major reshuffling is the Valkyrie mission.
Also regarding Tyrol's "ten years" comment. That might be a rounded value - people often think in 10, 15, 20 years - so I put that as "circa". --Serenity 06:37, 26 October 2007 (CDT)

Ancient History[edit]

  • 4,000 years BCH: The Thirteenth Tribe reportedly leaves the planet Kobol, later leaving a beacon in space and building the Temple of Five (The Eye of Jupiter)[1]. At some undated point, something travels from Earth to Kobol, passing on information about Earth, including a map of its night sky.

This would be clearer if these 3 items were seperated. The virus on the beacon is an exact match of a virus reported 3000 years ago. This is a major clue in the series and should be given more importance as opposed to being mentioned in passing the way its written here. Also it need to be specified that the Temple is *radio carbon* dated to 4000 years.

Quote Adama to Roslin "According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol"

Quote Tyrol to Adama "Our initial radio carbon dating suggests the temples at least 4000 years old which lines up with the exodus of the 13th tribe"

This is potentially confusing since the exodus of the 13th tribe is anything from 3000-4000 years ago (if 13th tribe and 13th colony are to taken as the same thing!). The virus itsself adds more confusion, since it was an exact match then the assumption is that its the same virus since a virus will mutate pretty fast but you would think that in space it is in suspended animation. Therefore its not entirely clear that this quote is saying the beacon is 3000 years old

Since the "undated" fact is undated, it should be moved outside of the timeline but still within the Ancient History section or preferentially removed entirely since it borders speculation.

I would suggest that it reads as follows...

  • 4000 years BCH: The Temple of Five is built by the 13th tribe [1]
  • 4000 - 3000 years BCH: The 13th tribe/colony leaves Kobol [1] [2]
  • After 3000 years BCH: The beacon is left behind by the 13th colony [2]

The [1], [2] points to the two quotes listed above.

Its not exactly clear in which order these occured but it represents the facts as we know them. It is very important that this timeline is listed as clearly as possible since it may well be one of the most crucial bits of information in the show. Although it is commonly assumed that the 13th tribe left Kobol, left a beacon and then built the temple it is not clear from these 2 quotes that this is the correct order of events. You can create other orders based on these quotes so I think its important that preconceptions aren't written into the description of events and the ordering of these events is left up to the reader - as the show intended. --Swozie 16:21, 4 January 2008 (CST)

How crucial it is depends on one's preferences. Mine are entirely elsewhere. Anyways, that's what footnotes are for. It's true that it should be left somewhat open, and it's a topic that was always unclear, but it has to be put in some order for the purpose of the article. Footnotes can give the sources and some explanation, so that the reader can decide what to make of it. They can't be too long, but 1-3 sentences are usually enough to convey the information. I changed it to make the beacon date more ambiguous, but that's said in the footnote. --Serenity 18:59, 4 January 2008 (CST)

12tribes leaving Kobol 2000 years ago is wrong...

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, o­n the order of approximately 2,000 years. Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol. --Swozie 19:54, 5 January 2008 (CST)

There are many contradictory quotes on that one. There is a quote that says 2,000 years (you mentioned it), there is one that says 3,000 and one that says 4,000. --Catrope(Talk to me or e-mail me) 03:57, 6 January 2008 (CST)

Its only a contradiction if you make the assumption that the 13th tribe left only once - also nobody has ever said that there was only ever 1 thirteeth colony. Although its never been stated, the modern day cylons themselves are obviously a 13th colony/tribe since they have their own homeworld.

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, o­n the order of approximately 2,000 years. Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol.

Notice the use of the term "first", also 13 tribes left Kobol, they aren't neccessarily saying the the legendary "Thirteeth Tribe" was one of them.

Adama: Why the Scroll of Pythia? Roslin: Pythia is supposed to have chronicled the original journey of the 13th Tribe o­n its way to Earth.

Notice the use of the term "original" - if there was only one journey then this term would have no meaning and therefore would be pointless to include it.

Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol"

Chief: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe. --Swozie 07:43, 6 January 2008 (CST)

The 13th Tribe "first left Kobol" 2,000 years ago, but also left 3,000 and 4,000 years ago? Now that's a contradiction... --Catrope(Talk to me or e-mail me) 08:06, 6 January 2008 (CST)
Yep. There is a deliberate retcon or dialogue error somewhere; or both. It's possible to reconcile two of the three dates; for example by assuming that part of them left Kobol earlier to build the temple and that the rest left later with the other tribes. But the third will contradict each two you chose. Taking all the dialogue literally and reconciling all three dates is impossible without some serve mental contortions. --Serenity 08:31, 6 January 2008 (CST)

They don't say the 13th tribe left 2000 years ago, they say 13 tribes left. Sorry to keep banging on about the same point and to a certain extent I am inclined to believe its an error of some kind, more likely the history of the colonies has been changed by the writers before season 3 but I don't believe its a script error since Boomer says the same thing...

Boomer: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your god supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down o­nto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes.

Even at that point in the series it was clear that the exodus of 13 tribes resulted in 12 colonies (on Kobol pre miniseries, later changed to 12 planets). So the writers knew that there were 12 colonies and yet twice they say 13 tribes left Kobol. --Swozie 07:15, 7 January 2008 (CST)

Well, with the first twelve populating the colonies, and the 13th going in their own direction. The (legendary) 13th tribe was one of the tribes. The only reason they're legendary (and not just a plain old tribe) is that they went in a different direction and the rest of the tribes (now colonies) lost track of them. The exodus of the 13 tribes would coincide with the exodus of the 13th tribe. It looks like the exodus was a single event... they just can't seem to keep their dates straight (whether it's 2, 3 or 4K years). --Steelviper 07:31, 7 January 2008 (CST)

RON MOORE COMMENTARY 8/26/2005 -- This notion of the constellations is something that I came up with. I wanted to connect it to our present day mythology of the Zodiac. The show is replete with symbols and references to Zodiacal things. Somehow, these names for these Colonies are not random, there is a connection, and here's the connection. That these people of the thirteenth tribe looked up into the sky and made up these constellations and assigned them to their brethren, the lost tribes. (source: The Home, Part II podcast)

You can't read much into Adama's 3000 year quote since he says "over 3000" years and he is talking about a virus, not exactly the beacon and since its unknown how the virus behaves in space, how long it takes to mutate into something different and even how long it took for the 13th tribe to get to the LionHeads nebula you can't really say anything for sure about how this fits into the timeline.

You also agree that at some point "someone" travelled from Earth to Kobol therefore the most obvious solution, which assumes no script errors is as follows

4000 years: Exodus of 13th tribe who then built the Temple

  1. Got to Earth
  2. Named the constellations after their "lost" brothers
  3. Went back to Kobol, with information on the Temple and the constellation map

2000 years: The "reunited" 13 tribes left Kobol to form 12 colonies

Surely this is the correct way to read the storyline. It makes no assumptions, requires no errors in the script, has no contradictions and interpets the quotes *exactly* as written.

Your just getting confused with "13th tribe" which reference one tribe, and "13 tribes" which references all 13.

--Swozie 07:37, 7 January 2008 (CST)

Except that if it happened that way, then the knowledge of where the 13th tribe went would be with the twelve colonies (since people who had been to earth would be among the twelve colonies). The tribes always have seemed to correspond to the colonies, so having a thirteenth in the mix would upset the pattern. What's really affecting my thinking (and likely the thinking of others) is the way the exodus pattern unfolded in TOS. --Steelviper 08:24, 7 January 2008 (CST)

The knowledge IS with the 12 colonies, the constellation map, the knowledge of the Temple, the chronicle of the original journey also bear in mind that when the 13th colony got to Earth, the other 12 tribes were (according to RON MOORE) considered "lost" --Swozie 08:29, 7 January 2008 (CST)

This timeline seems to make sense. Maybe we should try asking Brad or MrsRon whether this timeline is correct and there were actually 2 exoduses. --Catrope(Talk to me or e-mail me) 08:58, 7 January 2008 (CST)

"Lost Time", and other notes...[edit]

I think we should really note that there are various "lost time" events (i.e. "Flight of the Phoenix", "Downloaded", and even those inferred by "He That Believeth In Me") that we should note. Further, I think it would be wise to point out that there might be inaccuracies in this timeline that can never be rectified due to the lack of definitive information. Thoughts? -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 22:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

I thought "Downloaded" was cleared up on the DVD release? --April Arcus 03:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

BCE occurences[edit]

This search gives 10 occurences of the BCE style, all of them in infoboxes on characters making it to Earth.

Sure the series ends with the note that all these events are supposed to be in the distant past from our perspective, culminating in the long-past settlement of our planet.

However, shouldn't at least the infoboxes if not the articles alltogether remain within the confines of the series chronology, i.e. use BCH?

Also, there is a spoiler problem. By adding BCE to all these infoboxes, all these articles give away that Galactica cannot be finding our contemporary earth.

Finally, the date in question - and note it's the same date on every page is purely an estimation. Str1977 09:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

We should not be using BCE at all, since there is nothing that states that the Colonial Calendar lines up exactly with the Earth calendar. Please remember that the Earth calendar has been revised several times in human history, so we've never had a consistent calendar to begin with anyway. As there is no direct correlation between an Earth year being the same as a Colonial year, and as such we should keep all times in BCH (Before Colonial Holocaust) or ACH (After Colonial Holocaust). -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 14:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
Well, there is a link between the two systems as the ending of the series is .... years before our present. But that is revealed only in the last few moments of the show and should not form the basis for dates given here. It does make more sense to say Lee Adama died x years after the Cylon holocaust.
That the Earth calendar (actually is not one Earth calendar) has been revised is of no consequence however, as a) it makes little no differences to the years, b) BC is merely our present Gregorian calendar calculated backwards. Str1977 15:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
That is the only link. There is nothing that supports a direct correlation between how the Colonial calendar works and the Earth calendar (i.e. a Colonial year could be 380 days or more, as seems to be supported by Caprica occuring only 50 years before the Fall and not the 52-53 needed, if we're going by the 4,571 days that the First Cylon War took). And yes, the calendar has been modified since its inception as we learn more about the rotation of our planet and other factors, and there are vast differences between the two calendars that cause discrepancies. Just look at the Julian calendar versus the Gregorian calendar. Since we do not know what the discrepancy is between the Colonial calendar and the Second Earth (our real-life) calendar, we should just do away with the whole BCE thing in terms of the BSG universe, since it adds a level of error and complication we do not need. This is something that I honestly do not believe that RDM will ever explain, since that's not how RDM really works at all. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 18:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
We are basically on the same side on the actual issue: do away with BCE.
We only disagree about little things you said or rather about their relevance to this issue. As I said, there is no "the Calendar" on earth. Earth rotation only commands the day and that has been pretty much stable.
I agree that is probably a discrepancy between year-lengths and day-length if directly compared to ours. TOS was certainly more "realistic" on that account.
Back to the issue: can you suggest a ACH wording to replace the current BCE one. Str1977 09:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
I'll go even further.... There's no reason to note they died at all, since that's really a given and there were no special circumstances to their death. There really is no reason to use "died sometime after XXX ACH" in the infobox at all, since you would have to do that to every infobox for every character who survived up to the arrived at the new Earth. We should really leave the death section of infoboxes for confirmed deaths, not assumed. However, that's a topic for another talk page. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 22:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
Actually you are right. After all, the whole Wiki variously works under the "state as of the last episode" mode, talking about deceased characters - but from the perspective of 150,000 years later all would be deceased. Str1977 08:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
Absolutely. The only definitive evidence of anyone actually dying is Hera Agathon! All the other deaths should be logically assumed, barring some extremely odd and supernatural event. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 20:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
These are supposed to be 150,000 Earth years, aren't they? That's the time given in the article Ron is reading. -- Noneofyourbusiness 17:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
So this is how the 148,000 BC numberes originates: 150,000 years minus 2,000 years.
My proposal is change the current text to "died after the settlement of New Earth in ... ACH".
How many years after the Cylon Holocaust does the series end? Our season timelines (which actually are not timelines at all) do not help in this. The best estimation I have is based on a comment during the mutinty, which talks about "fighting the Cylons for four years" - that this fits with the four seasons is probably no coincidence.
So how about "died after the settlement of New Earth in 4 ACH?"
Str1977 09:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
The BSG timeline is wonky and wrought with various contradictions; Tom Zarek made a reference for "five years" in Season 4, there's that one year gaffe in "Hero", and "Caprica" (along with "Razor") introduces some delightfully fun inconsistencies of their own. As I said earlier, I'm not fond of noting deaths in infoboxes unless absolutely confirmed. We can assume that every one of the 38,000+ survivors (or, indeed, anyone else in the series) is well dead, buried and rotted to nothing after the 150,000 jump. This being the case, we can either make a carte blanche note that everyone died sometime after the discovery of the Second Earth (which is easy enough to do directly in the infobox's syntax itself), or simply leave the field blank in the infobox. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 20:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Real-world events within the timeline?[edit]

Since RDM has clearly stated on more than one occasion that the events of BSG lead to us in the real world, how do we handle real-life history within the confines of the timeline? For example, Admiral Adama scattered the survivors throughout the world at the end of "Daybreak, Part II." Real-life science and archaeology shows us that humans did not originate in or settle in any of those areas (except for the African area, where the survivors landed) 150,000 years ago. As such, should we make it clear in the articles that these survivors died out very quickly? Keeping with real-world history, that's precisely what would have taken place. (And their remains must've been rapidly devoured and scattered to bits by the local fauna!)

The same applies with Hera being described as Mitochondrial Eve, the MRCA. This is factually incorrect, as the MRCA existed much more recently than 150k years ago (more like between 10k and 50k years ago). Also, Mitochondrial Eve would be the most recent common matrilineal ancestor, anyway, not the MRCA. They're two different things.

I ask this because with any other science fiction series, it's all within an internal timeline, not connected to the real world. However, as I said, RDM has stated that the point of the show was to connect with the real world.

So...how should this be handled? I hope I made sense. Thanks in advance for your input... -- Liquidcross 01:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hmm. It's obviously not exactly like the real world. I think things where we don't know exactly what happened don't need mentioning. However likely something like "this settlement died out" may be, it's still speculative. There's no pressing need to fill in the part of the timeline between the penultimate and final scenes of Daybreak. -- Noneofyourbusiness 14:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Concur with Noneofyourbusiness. I do think that noting the facts that Liquidcross pointed out in the "notes" section or as references would suffice. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 16:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply