Talk:Callandra Tyrol/Archive 1

I just thought of this: in going with the Classical-themed names, maybe her full/real name's Calliope. Kuralyov 20:43, 28 Apr 2005 (EDT)

New Look

The last page was mostly garbage, opinion and things unverified. The new page has information that came directly from the episodes, and is accurate.

But this picture is horrible...much too dark. I'll see if I cna find a better one. Kuralyov 17:39, 26 Jun 2005 (EDT)

I added a picture. Actually, I had uploaded it, but forgot to add it to the article the first time around. Let me know your thoughts and concerns about it. -- Joe Beaudoin 11:32, 27 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Looks good to me. Kuralyov 17:39, 27 Jun 2005 (EDT)

I think it needs a better picture, one of the ones of her smiling on the flight deck. This is the one of her looking sad during Adama's speech. ---Ricimer, 25 Aug 2005

First Name

According to the novelization of the miniseries, her first name is "Jane". --Peter Farago 19:35, 29 December 2005 (EST)

I noticed this myself, but I didn't put it up because I don't know if that is canonical. I mean according to the novelization she was also in a relationship with Prosna; I think a lot of this is just "made up" by the writer and not associated with RDM in any shape or form. I need to get around to making a full write-up of the novelization. Updates as I get them. 5x5. --Ricimer 20:35, 29 December 2005 (EST)

Possibly a nod to B7

Since "Number Six" may be a nod to Prisoner, it may be that "Cally" is a nod to the eponymous telepath on "Blake's Seven," another tough-edged science fiction series. Below 16:26, 2 February 2006 (EST)

No. I was unaware that Cally was a character name on Blake's 7, but Ron D. Moore stated in the DVD commentary for "Bastille Day" that he picked the names of Cally, Socinus, and Prosna from an internet "Random ancient name generator". I actually had that in my transcript of the DVD commentary. Someone saw fit to remove it. I thought that was okay, but I guess I'll look at the history page and restore it now. --Ricimer 16:37, 2 February 2006 (EST)

I doubt that this is a nod to B7... Unless Avon and Vila show up with Servalan at their heels. :-) -- Joe Beaudoin 22:05, 2 February 2006 (EST)

Time for a Cally romance

She's been in the background for too long. I enjoyed her early development, but it's slacked off to where she just seemed bitter. Cally was a perky upbeat person with a creative streak, and the attack (as did all characters) changed her. Not that I want Cally to become the Whore of the Battlestar, but it would be fun for, say, her and Gaeta to strike a rapport (if not romantic as Gaeta can be a bigger stickler of regs, even with the need to make babies). There's plenty of enlisted; perhaps even she and the chief, Laird...others from Pegasus. I don't want her to become a lost character as Billy K had become. --Spencerian 13:41, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Be careful what you wish for. All the people who were asking, "Where's Billy?" probably didn't like the answer they got in Sacrifice... --Steelviper 13:46, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Spencerian, as I dutifully selected representative of the cult-following that Nicki "Cally" Clyne has amassed (me and some of the other regulars on the messageboard are obsessed with her: Solium and Nibblerfan made the fanart and run things, while I wrote up our "thesis" of why Cally is great (read it on the site); basically because I think she's the "Anti-Seven of Nine" and embodies many of the character traits postulated by Naturalistic science fiction, and in short, just like after so much Voyager and Enterprise, there was a backlash with the fans and we all left for BSG, after so much Seven of Nine and T'Pol, there was a backlash in favor of Cally. So it turned into a craze, and they kind of realized how popular she was, gave her more to do in season 2, etc.) Anyway, when you say "she's in the backround"...that's just these past few episodes. *****Watch the spoiler pics for "Lay Down Your Burdens", she's going to have ***BIG*** things happening, not to meantion, the Tyrol-Cally- Galactcia-Boomer triangle taking place. No, she does not "just seem bitter", I don't know what you're talking about. She was cool in FotP and Pegasus.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem that you've been obsessing over her for as long and in depth as much as we have; Gaeta is just a random name to say; rather, we've narrowed it down to two possible relationships: 1) Chief Tyrol 2) Seelix: Cally saved her life, so it would be really logical for her to be friends with Cally. Heck, like Cally, Racetrack, Helo, etc. Seelix was supposed to be a one-shot character (without even a name) but they liked her so they brought her back for FotP.

Further, this is totally incomparable to Billy. I already thought of Billy as an underused character by the early episodes of season 2, and I didn't really like him, while CALLY was just great!

Cally is not underused. Dualla is more underused than Cally. I like Cally more than Dualla, she's gotten more meaningful development, I think Apollo/Dualla is the most poorly executed storyline the show has ever produced, and frankly, everyone posting on the messageboards has generally been saying "wow....Dualla is not well developed and annoying....and I wish they were talking about Cally"

Things may have focused on other characters for the middle of Season 2.5, but I assure you Spencerian, this post is unwarranted, from the spoilers I've seen for the season finale; "all is proceeding according to PLAN!...."--The Merovingian 16:43, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Well, it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Out of respect, of course, I presume you're disagreeing with my comments and not the right to post. My post is quite warranted--I want to see more Cally. Anywho...Hopefully the "big" things at season's end don't involve her shooting anyone or getting shot. Dualla is getting a bit more screen time, but seems more like a damsel, which is a shame. I would like BSG to have an episode like Babylon 5's "A View from the Gallery," where we see some day-to-day events with our lesser but pet favorite characters, like Cally, Seelix, Tyrol, Gaeta, Kat, Hot Dog, and especially Racetrack (don't know what she does to me, but she does). And what's with the lazy talk formatting of your comments? Do I have to call the Mop Boy to come clean up again...? --Spencerian 18:53, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Several points:

1) By not means; of course I wasn't attacking your right to post this etc., I'm just debating the comments, etc.

2)....You refer to him as "The Boy", now?

3)That's a better way of putting my Dualla complaints: she has little characterization on her own; first she was defined mostly by her relationship with Billy, and now she's kind of just devolving into the "prize" of Apollo. I don't like where her character is degenerating. That said, I like the actress and she is more than capable of good stuff, I just think that Dualla's handling, case in point the Apollo/Dualla Dualla is meant as a reward for him thing, was one of the few wrong this with the show; it was kind of good in theory (when RDM talked about it in the Resistance and FotP podcasts, etc.), but the way it just sprung up now was just so poorly executed. I mean, just walking up to him in "Black Market" and going "hey, so we have a relationship, right?" (shudder); Sacrifice was better, but she was mostly damsel in distress, and further, her opennign dialog with Apollo "weren't that great" ("wow, that moment was...electric", etc. and "I can't quite figure You out Apollo"), again, my whole thing just being "wow, they never had a relationship before. This came about completely randomly, and they're acting as if it was some longstanding thing. The actors make a good job of it as best they can, but I really just want them to drop this relationship in season three"., etc.

4)Yes, I've alwas wanted another "View from the Gallery"/"Lower Decks" episode. Oh, Flight of the Phoenix was KIND OF like that, but I'd like more of it. Racetrack is also cool too. The reason I like Racetrack and also Duck is because they're such downers and pessimistic/pragmatic, i.e. like normal people. Sort of, you notice how on Star Trek often times even in really bad situations everyone tends to still be cheerful and optimistic? Well, logically, more of the pilots and civilians and regular people should be a little distraught at their situation. None too happy or perky, like Dr. Cottle, etc. Racetrack is indeed cool. I wish we'd finally have Helo in a Raptor again, paired with Racetrack etc.; not enough Raptor team stuff lately. But my pet project, "wishlist" episode, is like, TNG had "Data's Day" so why not "Cally's Day" or "Tyrol's Day", which focus entirely on like Tyrol (in which case Cally would be a main character), etc. etc. etc.

5) Giving Cally armor and Katanas etc. doesn't really work. The point of why Cally is cool (the Anti-Seven of Nine) is that she's not some cliche scifi female warrior, kick-ass Lara Croft type She has to use a rifle in early season 2, she's totally inexperienced, distraught and out of her element. Shooting Galactica-Boomer did really seem in character and GREAT though, as she cares about the Chief and would hate her for hurting him. I must say, it was one of those PERFECT tv moments where you go "I had NO IDEA that was going to happen....yet it was entirely logical, and I SHOULD HAVE seen it coming"....like when Cardassia joined the Dominion in Deep Space Nine, I was totally shocked, but realized that it was so logical, I should have seen it coming but didn't. --The Merovingian 19:14, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Uh. Hello, suh. I'll just be gettin' to work, then. *mops Merv's face* Bit of a mess in here, it is. *mops Spence's face* --Day 07:24, 15 February 2006 (EST)

Cally Tyrol?

Since Cally's now Tryol's wife, should we concider giving her his last name in the article, or just wait and see until its confirmed on screen or in dialouge? -- Kahran 01:41, 12 March 2006 (CST)

In the novelization, Cally is her surname. --Peter Farago 01:58, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Oh, now that's interesting. -- Kahran 04:22, 12 March 2006 (CST)

We also don't know for sure that Tyrol and Cally are married (or even that Tyrol is the father of her child). --Redwall 08:35, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Given that they were building up the Cally/Tyrol relationship in Act 1, I think it's obviously implied to be his. As for "married", well he's a really religious man (a Gemenon, son of a priest, etc.) I mean, if he is having a baby with Cally, you think they wouldn't be married but our lovable morons Anders and Starbuck are?--~

The implication is strong, but it's not crystal clear enough to note here without a hedge. I'm pretty sure we'll get a real confirmation in October. --Peter Farago 13:19, 12 March 2006 (CST)

I agree with the implication of them being married. However, that doesn't mean Cally will be taking Galen Tyrol's last name unless they say so. There are a lot of married couples nowadays that don't follow the "Western" tradition of the wife taking the husband's last name. You can't assume that the colonials all follow the same tradition. Will Starbuck be called Kara Anders? Probably for the continuouty of the show, probably not. -- Straycat0 09:41, 15 March 2006 (MST)

With confirmation that Cally is married, we face a little problem in that this article uses the character's first name throughout, instead of the last name per convention. I'm OK on it because of the limited data we had to date, but we should consider the need to conventionize this article. --Spencerian 11:17, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Actually, the issue I have right now is which last name to use. For instance, it's never been explicitly stated that Cally took on Tyrol's last name, unless I've missed something? Frak, never mind. She did take Tyrol as her last name. {{duncehat}} -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 12:26, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Based on Bradley's info, we should go ahead and conventionize the article. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 12:29, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Don't feel too bad. I did the same thing. Where's the proof! Oh. There it is. Yeah, let's go ahead and conventionize (even though Cally Tyrol still sounds like you're talking about two different characters). --Steelviper 12:49, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

S.S.D.Article. If we keep the Tighs and Adamas on track, we can make Cally work. --Spencerian 16:50, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

I agree that the two are almost certainly married. However, that doesn't justify moving the article to anything giving the surname Tyrol. a) For a good part of the series they are not married, b) to my knowledge Cally is never referred to as Mrs Tyrol, Specialist Tyrol etc. Str1977 08:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Conventionized

The article now fits with our standards and conventions. Like the name popularity of Helo, I won't be put off if the convention is occasionally violated in the article, 'cause Cally is just so gosh-dern cute. As season 3 goes along, contributions should use "Tyrol" and not "Henderson" or "Henderson Tyrol." --Spencerian 17:19, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

Do we have confirmation that Cally ever took Galen's surname? If not, shouldn't Anastasia Dualla be moved to Anastasia Dualla Adama and Kara Thrace to Kara Thrace Anders under the same rationalle? --Peter Farago 21:53, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

That's an interesting question. I've been generally following the BW:OC on this, but others might have been getting ahead on this. Cally's sourcing is confirmed (see Sources:Cally Henderson Tyrol), although I don't expect to see any credits changed in the shows. The two other marriages are best left alone and, better, asked of in BW:OC, as I am not aware of any sources related to their name changes. --Spencerian 08:20, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

Using "Henderson" instead of Cally is confusing. The only name used on the show is "Cally," after all...--Space Travel 15:03, 14 February 2007 (CST)

Well, yes, but it's improper to refer to the subject of a formal biography by their first name. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 16:06, 14 February 2007 (CST)

Move

I'd like to move this article to Cally Tyrol. We have no confirmation that Cally kept "Henderson" as a middle name. Also, we've generally avoided middle names and initials in the past, and I think we should continue to do so. --Peter Farago 16:01, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

I tend to agree. Simplifies links, too. We can keep the full name as a redirect, naturally. --Spencerian 18:53, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

I agree. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 19:31, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

Cleanup

Todo:

• Headings
• Season 3 Info

--Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 10:54, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

Made some headway with this- what do you think? --Madbrood 12:40, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

Sorry for the edit conflict and unintentional rollback of your last edits, Madbrood. Thanks for updating the article to current events (which I returned to the article). I've reformatted and concised the article to fit the season 3 character bios such as in William Adama and Gaius Baltar. That should take care of cleanup for this one. --Spencerian 13:41, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

No problem.I did kinda think, while I was bored at work, that I probably should have reviewed a couple of other character bios before jumping in, but I'm glad I could be of some assistance :) --Madbrood 06:47, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

Rank

We need sourcing on her rank as PO2. --Peter Farago 14:07, 14 December 2006 (CST)

"Unfinished Business" shows PO2 (those darn little lines aren't the easiest to see, but it looks like they are there). I'm not sure whether that rank still applies though... is she still active duty after the baby? --Steelviper 14:21, 14 December 2006 (CST)

Without a shadow of a doubt PO2. In the highres version it's very obvious. Though it's a good idea to confirm it in other episodes too, since there are sometimes one-episode errors with the rankpins and PO2 and Specialist are very similar.

And she was on duty in "Torn". When Kara brough her damaged Viper home --Serenity 14:35, 14 December 2006 (CST)

Ah. Right you are. Unfortunately, she's in the orange jumpsuit in "Torn" (no rank visible). And the rank picture we do have is several months out of date (though her absence from duty makes it unlikely that she shot up through the ranks in the interim). I'll scan through a bit more, but that might be our best shot for now. --Steelviper 14:55, 14 December 2006 (CST)

Henderson name on screen

In the notes it says that the prop department would use "Henderson" to label her equipment, clothing and locker. Is any of that actually visible on screen? If not, it doesn't mean they didn't do that, but it would be good to get a screenshot if possible. --Serenity 07:22, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

I think we've been all searching for something like this since we got wind of her last name, but very very little of her personal effects have appeared. Since Brad has confirmed the use of the name on props (per an OC question), it's not a point of question, but it would be good if we find anything at all. Her dog tags would be the best evidence. --Spencerian 08:50, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Her dogtags (seen in a high-res promo shot from Unfinish Business) are actually marked "P. Cally". There's a lower-res version of that picture that I put in this article. --Talos 16:40, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Caveat retconis. --Spencerian 16:43, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Yep, exactly. --Talos 16:48, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Calliandra

During the service, the priestess (or whatever she is) calls Cally by her full name. Her first name is "Calliandra" (or something similar)... May have to watch this one with our Closed Captioning tonight. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As a new owner of a DVR, I'll dig through it to verify. *snif* I miss Cally...even if she was turning out to be a bit of a frakwit... --Spencerian 21:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It is "Callendra." The article's been also written to SAC as Cally's last name should be used in bios. --Spencerian 02:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, the close captioning in SFC's airing spells it "Calandra", which is also a female name. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 02:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

We should have a note that "Cally" was a nickname. With a DVR spenc is really good. :D Shane (talk) 02:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm on serious allergy drugs. I better look again, too. :( --Spencerian 03:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Bear McCreary spells it as "Callandra" on his blog. --Deus 08:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Should I have to bot change all the [[Cally Yyrol]] to [[Callandra Tyrol|Cally Tyrol]] so there is no redirect? Most people know her by Cally and I don't think we should reflect that in most of the articles. Shane (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we should leave it as it is. -- Serenity 15:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Leave as is... We never changed all those "Louanne Katraine" references to "Sasha", after all. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 15:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Leave it as/revert to "Cally Tyrol." On Wikipedia, the titles of biography pages have the most common form of the person's name, with the full version subordinated to the first sentence of the article (example: Bill Clinton's page is titled "Bill Clinton," not "William Jefferson Clinton"). -- BlueResistance 13:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

She was only addressed as "Callandra" once. Either it should be returned to Cally Tyrol, or Lee Adama needs to be moved to Leland Adama.--Tim Thomason 22:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll be moving Lee to Leland in a bit.... Frankly, it doesn't really matter much what the article is named, since MediaWiki's got the redirect feature. :) Besides, "Samuel Anders" is called "Sam", "William Adama" is called "Bill", etc., etc. So we're not breaking any links by merely moving the page to its proper title. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 22:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no problem with giving full names (like Callandra or Leland) in the article - as long as they are sourced. However, the article should be under the commonly used names and these are Cally and Lee which are used almost exclusively. Str1977 08:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Serial number

Where did the present serial number come from? From one of the sets of dogtags I was able to find for this character, her serial number is 312883. Obviously, that may have originated from the Miniseries and Season 1, since she did not have a last name until later on in the series. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 04:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Move request

I requested that this article should be moved back to Cally Henderson.

• It is proper to note (verified) full forms of names in articles, but the article should be under that character's most common name. (And there is nothing in SAC that requires the recent move so it shouldn't be called "conventionalising".
• The character is almost universally referred to as Cally, while Callandra (or whatever the long form is) appears only once or twice.
• As for the surname:
  • It is almost certain that Chief Tyrol married Cally. However, this only happens after two seasons.
  • Until then (and that is half of the entire series) Cally's legal surname is certainly Henderson.
  • Whether the name changed at marriage we do not know - sure, some wives appear that bear their husband's surname (but right now only Ellen Tigh and Sharon Agathon come to mind) but we do not know that this is universal practice to adopt the husband's name. In fact, Starbuck is a counterexample. She married Anders on New Caprica (see episode Unfinished Business) but she is to my knowledge never called Kara Anders or Captain Anders.
  • Is Cally actually ever called by the surname Tyrol anytime?
  • The character was introduced as Cally Henderson - shouldn't we stick to original names even if they changed during the series (and as I noted, the change is a) only a supposed one, b) occurs only about half-way through the series).

And BTW, double naming like "Callandra Henderson Tyrol" is completely fictitious.

Str1977 09:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

They use "Callandra Henderson-Tyrol" in the production, and in the scripts. She has always been called "Henderson-Tyrol" by behind-the-scenes documentation (including breakdowns), and this was confirmed earlier by Bradley Thompson, a writer and producer on the show. Just because they don't say it every week in the show doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the show. Secondly, your point about using the "universal name" is a bit unnecessary since anyone who types in "Cally" or "Cally Henderson" or "Cally Tyrol" redirects here anyway. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 14:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, if they use it in the show (and only then, what does "in the production" mean?) then I take back that one point about Henderson-Tyrol (do they use it with a hypen or without one?)

But the rest stands, no is made even stronger, because if she is Cally Henderson-Tyrol, she is not Cally (or Callandra Tyrol).

My point about the universal is not unnecessary as we should be using the name most people would type in for an article name. There is actually zero people typing in Callandra as they name is practically never used. Str1977 15:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I am unconcerned about what people type, since the redirects are in place. It's proper to list the person's full name, then list what they are commonly known as. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:43, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

She's called "Callandra Henderson Tyrol" at her funeral. The convention for article titles here is:

• [Full First Name] [Full Last Name]. Thus, Leland Adama (not Lee); Samuel Anders (not Sam), Nicholas Tyrol (not Nicky). Obviously this is a little awkward, since they are practically never called by the long versions of their first names, but I think it's at least reasonable.
• No middle name or initial. Thus, Karl Agathon, not Karl C. Agathon; Samuel Anders, not Samuel T. Anders. This is important since for many characters, we only know a middle initial, if anything - not including any middle name gets around the issue.
• Most current surname. Thus, Sharon Agathon, not Sharon Valerii.

As for the naming customs of colonial marriage, we know that Ellen Tigh and Sharon Agathon took their husbands' surnames, and that Kara Thrace and Anastasia Dualla did not. Since both patterns mirror customs in Real Life, and since hyphenated surnames are also common, it at least possible that Cally's full name is Callandra Henderson-Tyrol, but I don't think that's the case - she's called simply "Cally Tyrol" on two occasions in season three ("Precipice" and "Dirty Hands"). The only time the name "Henderson" is ever used in dialogue is at her funeral, which would certainly have been a sufficiently formal occasion for a middle name to have been used - we learn Lee and Nicky's middle names during ceremonies of similar formality. So IMO, "Callandra Tyrol" it is, and "Callandra Tyrol" it should remain.

I think the story from behind the scenes is a little more interesting. During the first two seasons, the character is referred to by her rank, "Specialist", three times (by Boomer, Tigh and Crashdown). She is referred to her by her nickname, "Cally", 47 times - by her coworkers (Jammer and Seelix), commanding officers (Tyrol, Lee, Crashdown, and Adama), acquaintances (Duck, Dualla and Athena), and strangers (Cavil). Most interestingly, she is referred to on one occasion as "Specialist Cally". Ranks are not used with first names, and the miniseries novelization even invents a given name for her, calling her "Jane Cally". The impression, overall, is that until the start of the third season, either "Cally" was the character's surname, or her commanders and coworkers were shockingly informal with her compared to other characters.

The first appearance of the name "Henderson" is in the novel "Sagittarius is Bleeding", where she is called "Callista Henderson". This was published in October 2006, just prior to Season 3. Even in the third season, though, she's frequently called "Cally" by people in highly formal situations, and never once named by her rank. In "Unfinished Business", Adama calls her "Cally" in the same sentence that he addresses Tyrol by his rank.

Adama: Chief, good morning. Morning, Cally.

Tyrol: Admiral.

In "A Day in the Life", everybody does this:

Lee: Anything strong enough to take out the glass will take out Tyrol and Cally at the same time.

Athena: We'll hold position until Chief and Cally are secured.

Adama: Chief, Cally, Raptor's in position.

Adama: So any word on Chief and Cally?

So this establishes that her commanders and coworkers are just shockingly informal with her, and that she doesn't seem to mind - in contrast with practically every other major character. It's a weird little character quirk that doesn't line up at all with how gender was usually dealt with on the show; but maybe it matches Cally's character in a way - she was by far the most passive and stereotypically feminine woman in the cast. --Peter Farago 03:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd argue that Tyrol is less being referred to by rank, and more by his role/responsibility, much the same way as "Doc" or even the Admiral. Sometimes a person so embodies their role that it becomes their name less than their rank. --Steelviper 12:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)