Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

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To quote paraphrase Bill Pullman from ID4... "Let's nuke the bastard."

To offer a different perspective from ColonelKevin's point, I think this article really needs to be airlocked and approached in a completely different light. I've really felt this way from the get go, but my feelings are reinforced by the fact that this is the last and final season, and the article will then enter a state of total and complete obsolescence, particularly from an "out of universe perspective".

What I am proposing is that the article be written to detail "in universe" Cylon speculation and how they've dealt with the threat of Cylons looking human. I'm looking at documenting the overall human reaction to this, which would include things like Sesha Abinell's conspiracy theories, the Colonials attempts at a Cylon detector, the Fleet leadership's concerns about releasing the information before "Litmus", etc. Thoughts? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 23:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it's "Nuke 'em. Let's nuke the bastards.". And.. I agree. Shane (talk) 23:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You're right, Mr. Quotables... I meant "paraphrasing". -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 23:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea. From what I can infer, most, if not all, of the in-universe early-S4 speculation will be on Starbuck, so we might need to decide where we draw the lines between this article, Kara Thrace and The Destiny. OTW 00:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree somewhat. We know that many people love this speculation and the survey also shows that some people expect it here. But IMHO, it's just inane and verges on the annoying. There are so many fan theories floating around out there, it's flat out impossible to reflect even a good part of it. The problem is also, that what started out as interesting and grounded speculation, has deteriorated into complete bullshit by now, also due to the introduction of the Final Five. Especially with the latter, we can't really know which criteria even imply for potential cylonicity. In that regard, I've always felt that this wiki is a place for fact, analysis and some well-founded speculation here and there; and that complete speculation - like this - is a matter for forums. There are dozens of forums with endless threads of Final Five speculation, so why does this have to be rehashed on a wiki?

That said, the article has finally approached a state where it's readable and worthy of the wiki, by excising most of the specious speculation and concentrating on a few likely characters. However, as Joe said, its validity in light of the upcoming revelations - and also the uncertain basis for the arguments - is somewhat questionable. -- Serenity 06:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

While I do think it's possible to do a speculation page properly, there's no doubt that it's a huge task to produce one that's relatively grounded and well sourced, particularly considering how just about anyone could be the final cylon. It's hard to say if such a task is really worth the effort. If I had to chose between leaving the page as it is now or nuking it, I'd definetely say nuke it. Maybe take the best bits (the comment from Bradley Thompson and the Hybird prophecy, maybe the last supper picture, none of the speculation) and just place it on the section for the Final Cylon on the Humanoid Cylon article? -- ColonelKevin 16:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think collecting the pro/anti cylon clues for the characters is worthwhile. But perhaps it should be just done as two sets of bullet points per character -- reasons why, and why not they could be a Cylon. Tell people to stick to itemizing information from canon/official, leave it to the reader to judge what it means. Then add one broad section on non-character specific information (like the last supper etc.)--Bradtem 17:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

This article used to be a load of bullet points, but people didn't like that so we changed it to its current state. Despite writing about half of the article as it stands, I'm not a big fan of it. The problem is mainly with the in-universe clues, someone, somewhere will have some reason why pretty much any arbitrary scene means some character being a Cylon. There are some relatively good things to consider [Baltar's hallucinations, Starbuck's return from the dead], but eventually you have to draw the line somewhere [Some people take Leoben saying "Adama's a Cylon" as a clue, is that justified?]. It's all terribly subjective and messy and not really for an encyclopaedia. Having a comprehensive coverage of fan speculation is both impossible and undesirable.

I think the best thing about the article is that it stopped speculation spilling into other parts of the Wiki. An in-universe look at the issue would be better, and probably quite pertinent for season 4. Nevertheless, fan speculation on who is and isn't a Cylon has been an important part of the viewing experience (whenever I meet a Galactica fan the fisrt question I always ask is "Who do you think the last Cylon is?")

Consequently, it is worth considering if we can find a way to cover, out-of-universe, that element of the viewing experience in an encyclopaedic manner without necessarily joining in. At the very least we could include a line like: "Since the outset of the show fans have speculated on who could be a Cylon. Theories for practically every character exist, with fans drawing justification from events in both aired content and comments from cast and crew."

Also we need to consider what happens to Baltar as Cylon speculation, which is a very detailed essay, but probably not encyclopaedic. OTW 18:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

So, what's the plan? OTW 23:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, as you noted, the problem is that we'll never be able to cover fan theories in an encyclopedic format... Fan theories are really a dime a dozen, and to cover even 10% of them would be extremely biased. It seems quite apparent to me that the best bet would be to put the Baltar as Cylon speculation page to pasture, and redo the "humanoid Cylon speculation" page from an in-universe perspective, as I had suggested. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 23:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

What do you have in mind exactly? There isn't really any in-universe speculation for the final Cylon, expect for Baltar, which is covered in the other article. I guess we could cover the entire series and list people who were suspects at one time, which would be Boomer, Cmd. Adama, Ellen Tigh and Tyrol I guess. Maybe some more, but not a lot, and not really that interesting as it's common knowledge. -- Serenity 13:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm more interested in how the humans have grappled with identifying "who's a Cylon?" throughout the series then the search for the "Last Cylon", which I really don't find that interesting. When all is said and done, finding out "who's a Cylon" isn't as interesting as people make it out to be. So, as I've stated before:

"What I am proposing is that the article be written to detail 'in universe' Cylon speculation and how they've dealt with the threat of Cylons looking human. I'm looking at documenting the overall human reaction to this, which would include things like Sesha Abinell's conspiracy theories, the Colonials attempts at a Cylon detector, the Fleet leadership's concerns about releasing the information before 'Litmus', etc." -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, covering all that would be good and goes beyond the tired "who is a Cylon?" guessing. I agree that that's way overrated. Good TV in general isn't so much about what happens as how it affects the characters. I didn't know you wanted to go into that direction, which is why I asked. A different article name might be appropriate then, though. -- Serenity 16:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

With the addition of "one will be revealed" as the core of the main titles, I have to say I differ. It seems remiss not to have a page collecting the clues to what the producers themselves have declared is the central event and mystery of the season. And there's a lot of material around this -- the debate over the last supper page, various official statements etc.--Bradtem 02:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I've drafted a rebooting of this article, sticking to canonical clues with minimal speculation. The word "could" barely appears. What's the best way to introduce the new article? Created a rebooted page and later rename it if people like it?--Bradtem 04:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you can create a rebooted version of the page... We can always rename it later. :) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 04:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Create it as subpage of this article. Like Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot -- Serenity 06:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

With the in-show revelation that the final Cylon is not in the fleet (at least according to Three), Ron Moore's comment about the final Cylon not being in the picture seems to have been given much more credence. That would seem to suggest profound implications for this page, which is premised around a major character being the most likely revelation.--Hylas 00:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Karl

We were actually told that Hera and Nicky are hybrid children by Mr Moore (and Baltar tests Hera's blood for her hybrid nature in Epiphanies), hence Karl (and Cally) are definitely humans. This is unless RDM is just plain lying to us, which is quite possible. Nevertheless, I have a little faith, so I'm going to revert this edit.

Oh, yeah, weren't we planning to completely overhaul this article anyway? -- 09:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but go ahead and revert it. :) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

New theory about the final one: Benjamin "Ben" Linus from Lost

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=15994&postcount=280 (posted into forum as suggested)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Karamanthos (talk • contribs).

Hi there, Karamanthos! If I might make a suggestion, you're better off adding your theories to the Battlestar Forum. :) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 02:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The Hybrids

It's a bit of a stretch, but they seem to meet most of the criteria.

• There are no Hybrids in the fleet.
• Tiffany Lyndall-Knight was not in the Last Supper image.
• They are definitely Cylons.
• They don't have a model number.
• Redemption can mean either atonement or liberation.
• They are arguably "still in shadow".
• The "howl of terrible suffering" could refer to how the Hybrid screamed before becoming lucid in Faith.
• The Hybrids played a significant role in leading the Colonials and Cylons to Earth.

There are, however, a few problems.

• The Hybrids coming from Earth seems like a stretch.
• Although we don't know how long the Hybrid concept has been around, the Hybrids weren't introduced until early season 3, and IIRC they decided on the identity of the final Cylon in season 2.

Is there enough evidence to include the Hybrids under others? What about under more esoteric theories? -- Gordon Ecker 07:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think "more esoteric theories" is quite applicable here. The purpose of the section is to list some of the more out-of-the-box ideas that people might have. I think it would be best to simply state it, rather than include the justification above, else the section will get cluttered (like the rest of the article). OTW 00:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Article rebooted

Ok, so I've written up a reboot of the article based on the information presented in "Revelations". That can be located here. If there aren't any major objections I'd like to move the reboot to the main article space no later than the end of this week. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 19:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks good :) -- Serenity 21:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Definitely an improvement. I don't know that I'd privilege the final cylon being on the basestar as a "main theory" above some of the other options like dead or unseen characters returning as the final cylon. It seems very unlikely to me that Three's words can be taken so literally, and implausible that she completely ignored a Final Five cylon already on the basestar. Debate over minor issues like that can wait until after the article is rebooted, however.--Hylas 23:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

True. Obviously, I have no problem with people modifying it for other speculation, such as dead characters or the like. The last permutations of this article went completely overboard, IMHO, and I really want to restrict that here as much as humanly possible. (Or at least find a balance between the two extremes.) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 00:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks fine to me, too. The esoteric section is a bit "blogish", however. --Spencerian 00:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

While an improvement, it gives too much attention to Boomer (who is largely ruled out by D'Anna's declaration to Cavil that "There are five OTHER Cylons, Brother") and not enough attention to the dead characters, who seem to be all that is left. Now, I agree the article should focus only on real clues, and not "suspicious circumstances" and "wouldn't it be cool ifs" I do have a speculative article which you might find useful as source material on the dead characters. Actual true clues (at the level of Tyrol's compulsion to seek the temple or his superior response to being spaced) of the sort we've seen before are few and far between, yet RDM promises they are there. Yet we see none for non-eliminated characters--Bradtem 06:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

That post is a very interesting read, Bradtem, and could I think be adapted to wiki-article form with very little revision.

Another way to go with this article, which is looking better to me all the time, would be to limit it to providing background information - everything from the rebooted article up to and including "General Factors for Consideration" - but not including any specific theories. As Bradtem points out, there is really very little to base plausible speculation on. The options all seem equally unlikely: a dead returning to the bewilderment of most viewers? Number Three having some hidden reason to ignore the fifth's presence on the basestar or in the fleet? A special copy of a Cylon model? A completely new character being offered as a satisfactory conclusion to a series-long mystery in the final episode?

I actually have faith in the writers' narrative abilities to pull off any of the above, and to do so well, but I don't think at this point we have enough information to make plausible guesses as to what they will do. It's all "More esoteric ideas" at this point.--Hylas 22:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

And that is the problem. RDM has told us he's left clues, and he did -- for characters now eliminated by him. All that stuff in the draft article is "could be" style speculation -- as is also the case with my post linked to above. Right now it may be that all an article can do is list the general clues (specific, dramatic or offscreen), most of which eliminate characters. The stuff about Boomer is not only another round of "isn't this suspicious" that can be applied to almost any character, but goes against two elimination clues. Right now I am hard pressed to come up with actual clues on the order of the ones I cite above for Tyrol.--Bradtem 01:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, this is the problem... you've nailed it right on the head. If I may be blunt, RDM has clearly pulled a lot of things out of his ass—such as the "Final Five", and the fact that those Cylons do not have numbers—which leaves a lot of inconsistencies in the overall story, which include the inaccuracy in the number scheme (no "Number Seven"?), the whole "Cylon Resurrection Hub", and that horrendous piece of PR garbage, "The Last Supper". A lot of this show is off the cuff, and it shows very badly. Frankly, I really wish they would've called J. Michael Straczynski or some B5 alumni so that the show could be properly plotted storywise. (I'd be interested to see how well this series ages in 30 years; I don't think it'll age well at all in terms of storytelling, which is very hit or miss. As you can tell, I have a very "love/hate" relationship with this series, in addition to the original.) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 02:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Another, broader reboot

I have provided another form of reboot for the article here. The thrust is to constrain clues to three types I outline -- actual extrahuman events, dramatic mentions of cylonhood, and outside sources. I've largely stuck to it, though I have got one or two clues that go outside it, such as noting how Ellen's arrival with the fleet was extremely suspicious.

What I hope to remove are "clues" of the sort I've seen before, that say, "Dualla has been keeping herself close to the seats of power" and other activity which is suspicious, but not actually extrahuman or Cylon related. I've also abstained from clues of the "It would be really cool if Cally were the Cylon because Tory murdered her." While these sorts of dramatic hints may well be clues, the show is too full of them. If Dualla's not close to power, then somebody else is. So I do think it's OK to bend the rules for the extremely suspicious, or the very obviously dramatic foreshadowings.

To help people understand this more, I have included a list of the clues from the past that turned out to be real clues. They are very few, but people can add if they saw some others.

Different tone from Joe's, but let me know what you think, and if you like it, let's promote it to replace the old one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bradtem (talk • contribs).

I like this one. I do thing a merging of the two is in order, since I personally believe there should be an "in-universe" POV for how the Fleet dealt with their own suspicions on who a Cylon could be (Baltar's detector, the paranoia concerns in the first season, etc.) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 04:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the basics look good, but it still needs some tweaking here and there to fine-tune sentences, points, cites and such. And please, can we stop giving so much credence to Leoben's lie in "Flesh and Bone". At least it should be mentioned that it's most likely just BS instead of some "clue". -- Serenity 10:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely. Could use more cites and some cleanup here and there. However, I do rather think the more obvious false clue should be mentioned "Adama is a Cylon", since it does lead to in-universe speculation—and rather humorously dark moments between Roslin and Adama in "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down". -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Starbuck As A Cylon

However she was also physically abused as a child and still carries the scars; Cylons seem to be more robust than humans and possibly may not carry such long-term injuries. The same may be said of the knee injury which put a stop to Thrace's Pyramid playing ambitions.

What about Tigh's eye? He's a Cylon and his injury hasn't healed. that's a long-term injury that he still carries.

Starbuck can have scars and still be a Cylon.