Talk:Leland Adama/Archive 1

More Rank Confusion

Okay, so clearly Lee is once again a Major. Is this his second unexplained demotion? Was his rank always Major, and was he just referred to as Commander due to his position as the commanding officer on Pegasus? In the US Navy an officer of any rank is referred to as "Captain" when he is in command of a vessel. -- Doopokko 18:03, 1 January 2007 (CST)

The demotion appears to be similar to naval protocols where the rank of commander is given only to the captain of a ship. Since Lee hasn't a ship, he goes down to the highest non-ship command rank. This is speculation, but seems to be the only reason. --Spencerian 19:07, 1 January 2007 (CST)

Yeah, there is really no need to explain it. He was a Commander and we saw that promotion (The Captain's Hand). But it doesn't make that much sense to keep as Commander when he's "just" the CAG. Rank isn't everything anyways --Serenity 05:22, 2 January 2007 (CST)

It's all a bit odd. The best assumption is that Lee's promotion to Commander was a brevet, which ended with his command - this is not an uncommon practice during wartime, when faced with a shortage of officers. Although William Adama's resignation letter in "Hero" (and, according to the podcast, early drafts of the script) feature him leaving Lee in command after his departure, we should remember that Colonel Tigh was still on the outs at that point. --April Arcus 18:27, 2 January 2007 (CST)

We should remember that the Colonial military has less than 3000 people left. Promotions have always been shown as very fluid, and they don't necessarily use the same standards as before the Fall of the Colonies. People are promoted and demoted as needed to do their jobs and position counts for more than rank. --Serenity 18:37, 2 January 2007 (CST)

Can someone clarify this for me? When William Adama gets promoted to admiral ("commander of more than one ship is called an admiral"), he gets to keep his position/rank after losing the other ship (which should, theoretically, mean that he's a mere commander again), while this is not true for Lee Adama. How come? This would all make sense if commander was, in fact, a position, not a rank, but it's listed as a rank on this wiki. Thorn 02:25, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Adama is an experienced officer who was eligible to be promoted to Admiral for awhile but had been passed over. Since he was military commander of the fleet, the President promoted him to a suitable rank, which also helps them if they encounter any more meglomanical Admirals like Caine again. Conversely, Apollo is a young inexperienced officer (only promoted to Captain just before the miniseries.), so there is no reason not to demote him back down to Major after Pegasus was destroyed. He was probably only promoted to keep him above the officers already posted to her. This also keeps him from outranking Colonel Tigh as well. --Talos 05:25, 25 January 2007 (CST)

This promotion/demotion business is a flaw of the series we cannot possibly solve.

If Apollo is promoted to a rank of Commander when taking over Pegasus - and just appointed Commander of that ship - his later appearing as Major implies a demotion, which is a disciplinary measure (note that Kendra Shaw's demotion is explained by insubordination). But Apollo's demotion is not explained. And one shouldn't assume that Admiral Adama is not as high-handed as Admiral Cain.

Adama's Admiralship after the destruction of Pegasus is actually not a problem because President Roslin's explanation ("more than one ship") is nonsensical. And Admiral is in charge of a military fleet and after the desctruction of Pegasus the military fleet consists of just one single ship. And sure the promotion is caused by the experience of Cain's command, as before that no one considered promoting Adama.

Back to Apollo: he is not that young and inexperienced. And if demoted back to the next lower rank, why is he not Colonel Adama then? Maybe because all Colonels in the series are supposed to be inept characters.

IMHO, the series switches back and forth between a rank-based structure and one in which commands and posts (be it a battlestar, be it CAG) are given out and taken back at whim. Str1977 09:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Role

Should Lee's role be changed? I get the feeling he'll very shortly be CAG of Galactica again, but "currently" he's a Raptor pilot on Pegasus. Rocky8311 20:14, October 19, 2005 (EDT)

It should be changed when it changes. --April Arcus 23:35, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

Speaking of roles, what's the best way to sort them? Start with the most recent on top or the first? -- Noneofyourbusiness 17:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Most current, then working on down. It should be a generalized list, since he's been CAG on and off during the series run... and we don't want to load the infobox with the different instances he was a CAG, obviously. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:06, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Cylons

Can anybody think of any circumstances where Lee has interacted with a Cylon prisoner? I don't think he has interacted with any Cylon agent after they were known to be one. If it's true, it strikes me as strange. Rocky8311 17:54, October 20, 2005 (EDT)

With Caprica-Sharon in Home, Part I. --Ricimer 19:32, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

Why? There have only been three Cylons identified within the fleet so far. One blew himself up, Starbuck was tasked with interrogating another, and Lee was in the brig during Gal-Boomer's last days. --April Arcus 18:00, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

On the subject of Cylons, has anybody noticed that before the Alliance, Lee seems to harbor strong anti-Cylon sentiments. Stronger than most. That's one of the most undernoticed things about him, methinks.--Spidersense215 04:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Lee vs Adama

The article was just modified to change several instances of Adama to Lee. Changing "Lee" to "Adama" done as an effort to be consistent with the principle of using the last name on "home pages" of characters. See Discussion Here I don't want to immediately revert that change (as I know exactly how long it takes to make those changes, having done the inverse), but I was wondering if we're going to stick with the last name policy or not. --Steelviper 15:47, 13 December 2005 (EST)

I've reverted it. Our policy is clear and well-discussed. Mq59 can take it up on Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions if he has a new point to make. --April Arcus 16:13, 13 December 2005 (EST)

Source for "Floating in Water" Cylon Comparison?

Robojerk, I could not find a reference to the one you noted in a recent edit on Lee's comparison to being a Cylon. I'd like to keep that one in if you can tell the episode where you find that information. --Spencerian 18:06, 17 January 2006 (EST)

I think he's referring to the "swim in the stream" business. --Redwall 19:12, 17 January 2006 (EST)

Demotion

When exactly did it happen? Last time I checked, removing someone from flight status isn't an automatic demotion. Can someone point out exactly when he got busted? Joemc72 17:35, 19 January 2006 (EST)

My take on this: There is typically one Captain in any pilot group--that person's also the CAG. When Stinger was assigned CAG for all pilots, Adama might have been demoted by default, but I can't find any record of that happening directly (insignia checker take note). When Thrace was promoted to Captain, she became CAG as well. While pilots can be Captains when not assigned to a group (as Adama was before he arrived on Galactica), being actively assigned to a battlestar may also change things. Another likely point was that Cain demoted him as punishment in addition to revoking his flight status until Thrace asked for him back. Educational guesses--maybe someone can read through the transcripts? --Spencerian 18:35, 19 January 2006 (EST)

Bill Adama refers to him as Lieutenant in Resurrection Ship, Part II. No idea when the actual demotion took place, or if Cole Taylor and George Birch remained captains after losing their CAG position. --April Arcus 20:17, 19 January 2006 (EST)

I made the edit about his Lieutenant status. I assumed that it was a result of Cain's punishment rather than being assigned to Pegasus, as Stinger still refers to him as Captain in the teaser of Res Ship II. Also, getting a demotion due to reassignment sounds really wierd (though possible, I guess). --Redwall 20:35, 19 January 2006 (EST)

I think that Birch got a temporary promotion to captain, to be CAG, but that others like Taylor and Lee were captains through normal promotion through ranks (i.e. not dependent on being CAG or not) thus I think/hope that Apollo will be promoted right back to Captain by next week's episode, as I see NO reason why his father wouldn't just promote him back to Captain. --RicimerRicimer 22:06, 19 January 2006 (EST)

At the risk of digressing, the kid did not exactly look... spaceworthy, at the end of last episode. --April Arcus 22:39, 19 January 2006 (EST)

I'll digress right with you. Lee's expression matched the stunned, open-mouthed expression of the character, Cameron, from "Ferris Bueller's Day Off", after Cameron "kills" his dad's Porsche. Lee's worse off than Kat was when she was drugged out on stims. He's clinically depressed. --Spencerian 00:22, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Promotion!?

Aw, hell. While we were all chewin' through what Major pips looked like, recent events turn Lee Adama into a Commander!? I hope we all realize how really really confusing THIS is going to be from the disambigs for "Commander Adama" and first-season to mid-second season links. Curse you, Ron Moore! Curse you!!! --Spencerian 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

I don't get it either! What's with the Admiral?! Why did he put Lee in command of the Pegasus? Because he knows some tactics? He knows very little about commanding. Even Garner knew more! Would Lee sacrifice his life to save Pegasus? I doubt it. From episode to episode I hate Apollo more and more. The old man has lost his mind or what?! A flyboy in command? Worser than an engineer if you ask me. And how the hell got flyboy Adama promoted two time in a couple of weeks?! And WHY?! Why wouldn't the Admiral put Tigh in command instead? He has the ability to command a BS with discipline and Pegasus could adapt very fast to it because Cain was like that too. A flyboy in command? Right. Now that's what I call out of the box thinking. Well, it's light years from the box in this case. What will come next? Apollo will candidate for the presidency? Oh, I know: In the next episode (Downloaded) he will be revealed as God and he will lead the fleet to salvation. I hope the Pegasus will be destroyed pretty soon when Lee "God" Adama will be on board.

--Nyiz 16:32, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Aircraft carriers are usually commanded by aviators; the same is true of Battlestars. Both Admiral Adama and Colonel Tigh are former aviators, as were, as far as we can tell from the insignia, Cain and Fisk. Furthermore, Tigh doesn't want a command. Philwelch 19:52, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Just to clarify, a friend of mine (ex-USN) has told me that a Carrier may ONLY be commanded by an aviator, and since Ron Moore has described Galactica as an aircraft carrier in space (and given all the other references to current-day military), it's safe to assume that this Command structure is the same in BSG-land. Also: Garner knew more about tactics than Lee did? No offence, but did you even watch The Captain's Hand? Had Garner any real knowledge of command tactics, it's doubtful that the Battle of the Binary Star System would have unfolded as it did. With regards to his promotion to Major- it seems to be the general concensus (although never explicitly stated on screen) that Lee was assigned to Pegasus as Garner's XO. If this is the case (which i don't believe- see bottom of page), the Old Man may have promoted him to Major in order to give him more clout over the other Pegasus officers --Madbrood 07:43, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Why Lee Adama? Believe it or not, given what we know of the surviving military personnel, Lee is now one of the senior officers of the fleet. Tigh is utterly unsuitable for command, has no "cred" on Pegasus, and would do nothing to improve their morale. Furthermore, there's no evidence that Tigh wants a command of his own, ever. Lee, for all his faults (and brother, does he have faults) has shown quick thinking, and an ability to make even questionable decisions work out in nondisasterous ways. He'll either grow up really, really fast, or he won't, in which case I expect that Pegasus's deckhands will be installing a revolving door on the commander's cabin.--Uncle Mikey 14:25, 24 February 2006 (EST)

Wow, from Captain to Major to Commander in a matter of days. That's got to be a record somewhere. --Zeratul 17:41, 18 February 2006 (EST)

No, more like Captain to Lieutenant to Captain to Major to Commander in a matter of weeks. (haha) It's more maddening when you think of it that way. But without him, the Pegasus wouldn't have made it out of that trap; that had to be tricky. Granted, Garner's repair was vital too.

I need to go back and watch the episode, I totally had the impression that the Admiral was transfering to Pegasus and Lee was taking Galactica. I'm most curious however to find out who his XO is going to be. My only possible guess is Captain Kelly, Galactica LSO Rocky8311 18:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I also got that impression, Rocky. Also, everyone, it's mentioned that "The Captain's Hand" is a month after "Sacrifice", so his promotions might not be as rapid-fire as they seem. Not that it's a normal, slow progression, but neither is it Captain on Monday, Major on Thursday and Commander on Saturday. As for Lee's XO... I'd like to see some Marine or something promoted to command-level staff. Maybe Hadrian. Though I have no idea how realistic that is. What, exactly, does a Sergeant at Arms do? --Day 20:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Well, as a Noncommissioned officer (that is, a non-officer), it would be impossible to become the XO. Someone slap me down if I'm wrong, but a useful generalization is that people who graduate from college are elligible to become Officers and those who don't tend to "enlist" (gradually being promoted toward from Privates toward non-commissioned officer ranks like Sergeant). (See Military Ranks (RDM)) When an enlisted soldier reaches the top of the Noncommissioned officer hierarchy, they don't jump to an Officer Rank (in BSG's case: Ensign). Like I said; if I'm way off base, someone correct me.

It's kind of strange, come to think about it, that for a show that works so hard to break stereotypes by casting Starbuck and Kat as the top aces, that most senior officers in the fleet are, and have been, old white men. (Tigh, Fisk, Garner, Kelly, Cottle, Lee...) The RDM feels less racially diverse than the TOS in some ways. Not that I'm complaining about anything; I think everything has been cast well and an "alien" civilization of humans doesn't need to fit our expectations anyway.... Rocky8311 04:09, 24 February 2006 (EST)

You're correct on there not being an automatic jump from enlisted to officer ranks. Technically that butterbar lieutenant that rolls out of the service academy or ROTC program outranks even the highest ranking enlisted person (NCO or not) from day one. That being said, there are certain realities in the field that blur those lines. A company commander is going to be far more likely to listen to his First Sergeant than a 2LT when it comes to practical decisions, regardless of who technically would have to salute whom. There are programs that allow enlisted folks to move into officer ranks after getting a degree (green to gold, etc.), and I have worked with both a Major and a Lt. Col who were former enlisted. (A lot of enlisted guys I've talked to prefer the former-enlisted officers to ROTC and especially service academy officers, as they feel that the former enlisted officers better understand what goes on at the lowest levels.) So there's no probable way for a marine to end up being an XO in BSG-land right now, as the highest ranking marine we've seen is credited as being an LT (though he is called Gunny by Kara).

As for the demographics of the senior officers... I wouldn't call Kelly or Lee old. ;) --Steelviper 09:06, 24 February 2006 (EST)

Tigh was once an enlisted person during the Cylon War. A Petty Officer if I'm not mistaken. --Talos 10:04, 24 February 2006 (EST)

I believe that's correct. He was "dragooned" into officer training to fly a Viper. So it IS possible for an enlisted person to become XO. It just takes a long time... --Steelviper 10:07, 24 February 2006 (EST)

caption for new picture

Sorry, I couldn't help myself, lol. :D--Kross 21:35, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Fat Lee

Just like to point out that theres a behind the scenes thing for Season 3 up on scifi.com's video player, in which theres a scene involving fat lee during an episode, and also explains the chunkicity. HTH :) --Fordsierra4x4 20:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Lee as Pegasus XO?

I move that this section of the article be revised or deleted entirely. It was never explicitly stated on screen that the reason for Lee's transfer to Pegasus was to become Garner's XO; all we are told was that he was to keep an eye on Starbuck, and that it was temporary- "I should be back again in a couple of weeks". Garner also sates, rather aggressively, that he is "not a member of this crew" to the CIC Sergeant of the Guard. Surely that is reason enough to conclude that he was in fact NOT Garner's XO? --Madbrood 07:55, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Anyone have a different view on this? Have I mised something? --Madbrood 07:20, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

In one of the deleted scenes (217.1 Dinner Conversation) Tigh asks "You still thinking about making Apollo his XO?". That could mean that Adm. Adama wanted to send over Apollo just to help Garner for now (as per your dialogue citations), but thought about making him the permanent XO --Serenity 08:15, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

Aren't we taking what is on screen as what is canon, though? --Madbrood 11:12, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

I can't tell you how much I hate the fraking C-word and its overuse! I've seen other articles argue with deleted scenes too, or adding information from them to character bios. Sometimes they are even necessary to fully understand some developments, like why Socinus went to Kobol. Personally, unless they are contradicted later, I don't see why they shouldn't be at least considered in speculation. When the writers wrote the episode they had ideas about why Lee went to the Pegasus and in what capacity. This scene is also an expression of that ideas even if it wasn't shown on TV. Besides, it's not like I'm contradicting you. It's supporting what you said above. He wasn 't the XO yet --Serenity 11:29, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

Oh, I know you're not contradicting me. And I've just read the BW:OC in which the very kind Ngarenn points out that the writing room operates as if "every scene shot happened". So, I suppose, I'll stand back. I had never seen that deleted scene before :( (undoubtadely cause I'm from the UK, and because I didn't even know there was a deleted scene) --Madbrood 12:50, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

Article formatting.

The Lee Adama article is formatted differently than all the other character articles. Here we have actual paragraphs describing the character, whereas elsewhere we merely have note points. I'm sort of a stickler for consistency and was wondering if there are plans to reformat this page. This would be a massive undertaking and, frankly, I like the formatting of the Lee page much better. We may thus want to reformat the other pages (but that would be an even larger endeavor). I just wanted to see if anyone else was thinking about this, or what the general consensus to such a project may be...-- Helo87

The paragraph format is the standard, but some of the character articles grew so large under that format that they had to be condensed to remain at a reasonable size (without splitting it up into subarticles). If you look at the bulleted characters histories, you ought to be able to find the (gigantic) older formatting versions. --Steelviper 12:38, 14 February 2008 (CST)

If anything, the other articles should be changed to highlight pivotal character moments instead of just retelling all plot points. I think this is somewhat if a model for what character articles should be. Not so much because of bullet points vs paragraphs, but because it actually focuses on Lee Adama as a character and analyzes his motivations and habits a bit. As such, using paragraphs is really advantageous.

Overall a prefer paragraphs, but bullet points also have their uses. With paragraphs, it's hard to find good transitions, so when dealing with lots of varied information, bullet points have their uses. But as said, they can become too long and hard to read. There was actually a whole bio project about this, but while we agreed that a more character focused approach would be great, it didn't really take off. You'll notice that the large, bulleted articles are often a bit plot focused. An exception to this is the last section of William Adama, which I rewrote a bit, because it overlaps so much with this one and is really suitable for a character focused approach. Rewriting entire articles of this length is also a lot of work though.

Here is the link to the bio project, which also contains a lengthier comment by me about this very article and why I rewrote it somewhat (content, not format). The proposal itself also notes the idea of a mixed format, but that wasn't so popular I think. We should probably tackle this again after the show's end, if it's not done by then, and not much new content is added. -- Serenity 12:47, 14 February 2008 (CST)

Yeah Serenity, that sounds like a plan. I think that the eventual goal (once the series is over) would be to condense the character pages because they end up being a complete recap of the series from each individuals point of view. This is pretty stupid, and I think that it detracts from the overall purpose of the character pages; to provide information on who someone was and what the defining moments of their lives were. Then again, that is the general problem with creating a good Wiki (though I think that everyone's doing a great job here), in that there is a lot of information overlapping between articles. For example, when I redid the "Fall of the Twelve Colonies" page there was a section that described the nature of the humanoid Cylons, and frankly, that was unnecessary. In the end I just erased it all and made sure there were appropriate links to the page that was meant to explain that (i.e. the humanoid Cylon page). -- Helo87

Family tree

Would "Gianne" and her unborn child fit into the family tree, despite the fact that Gianne and Lee's baby was never born? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 22:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Gianne and Lee were engaged but didn't marry, and we don't know if the baby was even far along enough to be legally considered alive. It has no known name to put on the tree. So I don't think so. -- Noneofyourbusiness 00:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Boxes

I don't want to start a fight over anything, since I know we've been over what should/shouldn't be in the succession boxes before, but if we're going to include Lee and Zarek's stints as Acting President, then shouldn't we also include his post as Acting XO on Pegasus, as well as Kat's stint as acting CAG (in the Pegasus trilogy) and Birch's as actual, designated CAG (in Home I & II)? Thus, either the minimalist version:

Preceded by: Jackson "Ripper" Spencer	Commander, Air Group, Galactica	Succeeded by: Kara "Starbuck" Thrace
Preceded by: Barry Garner	Commanding Officer, Pegasus	Succeeded by: (none, ship destroyed)
Preceded by: Louanne "Kat" Katraine	Commander, Air Group, Galactica	Succeeded by: Karl "Helo" Agathon
Preceded by: Cowen	Caprican delegate to the Quorum of Twelve	Succeeded by: Incumbent

or the completist version:

Preceded by: Jackson "Ripper" Spencer	Commander, Air Group, Galactica	Succeeded by: George "Catman" Birch
Preceded by: George "Catman" Birch	Commander, Air Group, Galactica	Succeeded by: Louanne "Kat" Katraine (Acting)
Preceded by: Louanne "Kat" Katraine (Acting)	Commander, Air Group, Galactica	Succeeded by: Kara "Starbuck" Thrace
Preceded by: (unknown, eventually Jack Fisk)	Executive Officer, Pegasus (Acting)	Succeeded by: (unknown, eventually Anastasia Dualla)
Preceded by: Barry Garner	Commanding Officer, Pegasus	Succeeded by: (none, ship destroyed)
Preceded by: Louanne "Kat" Katraine	Commander, Air Group, Galactica	Succeeded by: Karl "Helo" Agathon
Preceded by: Cowen	Caprican delegate to the Quorum of Twelve	Succeeded by: (unknown)
Preceded by: Tom Zarek (Acting)	President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol (Acting)	Succeeded by: Incumbent

--April Arcus 01:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I think in general it's more important to note that he held very different positions than documenting the CAG switcheroos just because he went on some mission and needed to be replaced for one episode. -- Serenity 11:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Surely then, his position as acting President due to Roslin's temporary absence is equally unimportant? --April Arcus 17:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't think so, given that he's responsible for the alliance with the Cylons. -- Noneofyourbusiness 17:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Move request

I requested that this article should be moved back to Lee Adama.

• It is proper to note (verified) full forms of names in articles, but the article should be under that character's most common name. (And there is nothing in /BW:SAC#Characters_Names_and_TitlesSAC that requires the recent move so it shouldn't be called "conventionalising" (This was done in the Talk page to the Cally article - the whole move wasn't discussed here, as far as I can tell.)
• The character is consistently referred to as either Lee, Captain/Lieutenant/Major/Commander Adama or Apollo.
• I have never heard of one occurence of Leland (but I am only in the middle of the third series watching). Even though, such a lone occurence would not justify the article title given the principle laid out above.

Str1977 09:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above. In the entire series, I remember only one instance of the use "Leland". Also, I think it's common for articles to be named after the better known name of a person. For instance, on wikipedia, there are articles titled "Stonewall Jackson" instead of "Thomas Jackson" and "Jimmy Carter" instead of "James Carter". I don't see why we should do anything different based on a very limited use of Lee's full first name. CylonCAG 02:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I could go either way, but I'd lean toward "Leland" for consistency's sake: It's nice having all the character articles in the same format, and using "Lee" would invite "Helo Agathon", "Dee Dualla" and "Jammer Lyman" - all as reasonable as "Lee Adama", since they are practically never called by their real first names, but really silly looking. --April Arcus 03:49, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but I don't think those cases are the same as Lee. To my knowledge none of those characters have ever been called "Helo Agathon" or any of the other names. However, Lee has been called "Lee Adama" many, many times. For instance, Lee once screams "My name is Lee Adama...". If say, Helo had once said "I'm Helo Agathon" or if Dee had been addressed as "Dee Dualla" that would be different. However, names like that are combining two different names, while Lee Adama is the actual name Lee is called by for the vast majority of the series. CylonCAG 04:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"for consistency's sake: It's nice having all the character articles in the same format, and using "Lee" would invite ..."

And for consistency's sake I am in favour of Lee Adama, Cally Henderson/Tyrol, Karl Agathon etc. Consistency which takes the series itself into account.

Examples like "Helo Agathon", "Dee Dualla" and "Jammer Lyman" are nonsensical as these people are never called this way. Helo is either called "Helo", "Karl Agathon", "Karl C. Agathon", "Lt./Captain Agathon" etc. Call signs are alternative to the real names, not cominations with them. And we rightfully opt to use the real names, since this clearly distinguishes the new Apollo, new Starbuck, new Boomer, new Athena from their very different TOS counterparts.

"since they are practically never called by their real first names"

Not true, not true. Helo is called Karl by Sharon, Apollo is almos consistently called Lee by Starbuck (and Starbuck Kara by Apollo).

Str1977 09:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Shane (talk) 13:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

This and Talk:Callandra Tyrol seem to be a bit of a tempest in a teacup to me. If you type "Lee Adama" into the search box, you get to the right place. Ditto for "Cally". I think the articles should use the full given name if it's revealed in the series. Should we move William Adama to Bill Adama? After all, he's hardly ever called William. I think not. The beauty of redirects is in that we can redirect any permutation of the name. Going through the hassle of moving these articles, correcting links, etc., is probably not the best use of our time with a huge influx of new users, multiple episode summaries that need concision/cleanup. Your mileage may vary. JubalHarshaw 13:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

My worry is that we may start including the names "Leland Adama" and "Callandra Tyrol" in other articles. After all, if I replaced the use of "Lee Adama" with "Leland Adama" every time "Lee" was used (minus direct quotes), I wouldn't be doing anything wrong. However, this would be confusing. True, if I clicked on Leland I'd be directed here, but it still would be a bit confusing to read that Leland is the CAG, especially considering the name Leland was used just once. CylonCAG 17:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Obviously we shouldn't use "Leland" in article text when the colloquial "Lee" is more appropriate, but isn't the title of the article a separate issue? I think what most people would do is type "Lee Adama" into the search box, end up here, think "Huh, Lee is short for Leland" and then think nothing of it again. It's nice to be able to provide fuller and more accurate information, and I think that the current practice does so in an unobtrusive way. --April Arcus 20:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense. But what I am worried about is if someone changes Lee to the still correct but less used Leland. Let's say I went through the wiki and changed almost every instance of Lee to "Leland". Would it stay that way, be reverted, or have an edit war between the use of "Lee" and "Leland"? It probably wouldn't be the end of the worldif Leland were used instead of Lee, but it would definitly be a bit weird. CylonCAG 22:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Knocking this down to first level, hence the lack of indentation. First, we refer to characters by their proper names when it comes to naming the article, so "Leland Adama" should remain that way. Again, we have redirects in place that make this point moot, so it's clearly not for usability reasons.

The second, and probably the most important actual issue here, is how the names are used in the article. For clarity's sake, we should always use the character's first name or last name when referring to that character. Properly, last names are preferred over first names, since last names are more formal and proper for the encyclopedia/reference guide that we've constructed. Callsigns should be totally avoided at all costs, since these are informal military names. (The only reason we should ever refer to a character by their callsign is because we don't know of the character by any other name.) When it comes to first names, which is the real issue up for discussion here, I do agree that Lee should always be used if needed, the same with Cally. "Bill" is really a unique case that likely merits further discussion, since he's been referred to as both in the series. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 03:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for making that clear. As long as we do that, I'm fine calling this article Leland. CylonCAG 04:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

BCE

Please, take note of this issue. Str1977 09:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)