Talk:Razor/Archive2

The first Hybrid's "children"

I can think of several possibilities:

• The Guardians
• The humanoid Cylons
• The other Hybrids
• Cylons in general

-- Gordon Ecker 20:27, 25 November 2007 (CST)

To-do list

Most major things have been done already, but there are some left (add if you can think of anything):

• Updating Peter Laird
• Finding out who Riggs and Frank Bruno are and updating the articles
• Adding some other lines to Noteworthy Dialogue
• Adding such dialogue to Razor Flashbacks. Not much to go on, but the "nothing but the rain" exchange between Adama and McGavin is good.

Razor analysis and questions will probably be done without much effort. The most major thing is getting pictures, but we better wait for DVD to do that. --Serenity 03:07, 26 November 2007 (CST)

Riggs is the marine Kendra gives a hard time to after his squad does a weapons assembly drill. Bruno only appears in the DVD, AFAIK. He's the guy who talks to Kendra in the "coffee tent," before she posts to Pegasus. He also appears in a deleted scene with Lee. --Mmm...toasty 11:48, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Nice. Thanks :) --Serenity 11:59, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Razor Acts and Teaser

I've finished writing the Pegasus timeline for Razor. I know it's pretty long, but keep in mind that not only is it a double-episode, the content is extremely compressed, so it was hard to shorten it up. For future reference, I have added an invisible note at the bottom of the Razor summary detailing the Razor Teaser, and a breakdown of where each act begins and ends. Additionally, I am including another copy here.

• Teaser
  • We see only Shaw’s hand as she opens and closes Cain’s knife. She rubs her fingers along the blade, careful not to get hurt. She talks about the importance of living with your decisions, and the cycle of life, and how there are no second chances. The word “RAZOR” flashes across the screen.
  • We now see a series of flashbacks, periodically edited in with shots of Shaw caressing Cain’s knife. The first to appear is the discovery of the Pegasus by the Fleet (Pegasus). We then see Gina being whipped by Thorne (a new scene), and we hear Baltar’s voice comforting her, telling her that what she needs is justice. Next we see Gina holding the gun to Cain’s head. We hear the gun go off, and then we immediately see her funeral, with Fisk giving the eulogy (Resurrection Ship, Part II). Next we see Fisk being garroted and then Adama and Tigh talking about promoting Garner (Black Market). Next we see the scene where the enemy baseships jump ahead of the Pegasus, and Garner dies saving the ship. We see Apollo promoted to commander (The Captain's Hand).
  • Finally we hear Shaw again, talking about how you are the choices you make in life, followed by the opening titles.

Don't use things like "we see". If anything write "the viewer sees". But best is a more neutral voice like "Shaw says" or "Shaw's hand". The rest isn't really needed at all. I don't think it's necessary to summarize the flashbacks designed to bring viewers up to speed. Shaw's monologue should be enough. --Serenity 04:29, 26 November 2007 (CST)

• Act 1
  • Begins after opening titles.
  • Ends after Shaw is promoted to major.
• Act 2
  • Begins as Shaw is drilling Colonial Marines on rifle assembly aboard Pegasus.
  • Ends as the Pegasus crew is shouting “So Say We All!”
• Act 3
  • Begins as the Pegasus senior staff is discussing the communication relay.
  • Ends as the first Cylon salvos strike Pegasus.
• Act 4
  • Begins as Belzen is being taken to the morgue.
  • Ends after the First Cylon War flashback, as Adama and Roslin look over the original Cylon Raider.
• Act 5
  • Begins as Roslin, Apollo and Adama discuss the Guardian basestar.
  • Ends after the massacre aboard the Scylla.
• Act 6
  • Begins as the Scylla boarding party is leaving the ship.
  • Ends as the Centurion Model 0005’s are coordinating with each other aboard the Cylon Raider.
• Act 7
  • Begins as Red Squad is floating in space.
  • Ends after the Guardian basestar explodes.
• Act 8
  • Begins as Apollo and Adama are discussing Cain and Shaw posthumously.
  • Ends at credits.

--OrionFour 03:52, 26 November 2007 (CST)

Alright I've taken that part out. --OrionFour 04:39, 26 November 2007 (CST)

Doral in Razor?

Is it me, or is the guy in a suit (security?) seen shortly behind Cain at the beginning of the conference in her quarters a Number Five? Ausir 12:56, 29 November 2007 (CST)

I did a double take myself when I saw that... but it isn't Doral. It's apparently just a crew member who is dressed as a butler for the dinner occasion. (For Doral's appearance in "Razor", he's in a scene where he notifies Bill Adama that Lee will be doing the flyby during the decommissioning ceremony.) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 13:01, 29 November 2007 (CST)

They look somewhat similar, but you can tell it's not really him. --Serenity 13:05, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Hair color?

Is it just me, or is Cain's hair color different in this appearance than it was in the previous season two episodes? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 19:42, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Positrons... heisenberg hair color uncertainty principle... yeah. It appears darker offhand. New hair vs Old hair--Steelviper 20:03, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Didn't we talk about this already? :) Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 20:26, 29 November 2007 (CST)

I mentioned it in our Gtalk conversation. LOL -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 20:37, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Not just the color, but the style, too. She looks more feminine and less severe. Maybe she decides later that curlers and color treatments are not combat considerations  :) --Fredmdbud 16:51, 30 November 2007 (CST)

New Razor article?

It's like what I say in the header, though to specify: are we going to have another article for the extended/unrated version of "Razor" like with what we did with "Pegasus", or are we just going to drop everything under the same article? I'd like to know before any integration of new material from the extended version goes into here. --Mars 12:16, 5 December 2007 (CST)

Isn't it just 15 minutes more material? Given the length of 1.5 hours, that's not so much. The summary is already pretty long, but since it's not that much new stuff, we could include it in this article I think. And then mark it somehow, for example with "(*)". --Serenity 12:20, 5 December 2007 (CST)

I have the DVD for two weeks now (a week before release) and it's not that much of a difference. :) Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 12:22, 5 December 2007 (CST)

No need to have an extended version of the page. We should just note what happens in these extended scenes, note that they are extended, and we'll be fine. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 12:44, 5 December 2007 (CST)

Well, I wasn't advocating a new page. I just wanted to make sure no one was going to create one before we started adding the extra material in - which I'm surprised no one has started yet. I do think there should be something specific about there being two versions, though. --Mars 16:29, 5 December 2007 (CST)

Could be placed in the overview section. There it can also be explained how the DVD scenes are marked. --Serenity 16:30, 5 December 2007 (CST)

I we do include the extra scenes into this main article, we should mark them as being on the dvd only. I got my copy last night and saw the changes. They're not a lot "length-wise", but in general story telling, it does add in a lot. It definitely explains more about Cain's psyche and explains her motives to fight instead of run. --LifeStar 09:09, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Split Idea

We should move the analysis and the production notes to two different pages. They make this one page, way to long to begin with. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 01:33, 11 December 2007 (CST)

Yeah. Similar to the Miniseries a Razor, Analysis or maybe Razor/Analysis article would probably be better, since the summary is very long. Splitting off the official statements is a good idea too. I'd keep notes and maybe dialogue though. --Serenity 02:12, 11 December 2007 (CST)

What if we create a template where users can easily select which articles they wish to view (in addition to the Main article links you suggest on the page)? That way we can combine this article and whatever we choose to disjoin from it, along with the Razor Flashbacks and Razor DVD (both 1 & 2) pages all into one nice neat little package. --OrionFour 03:53, 11 December 2007 (CST)

Basically, the idea wouldn't work... there's no way to dynamically cherry pick and select what you want to read, at least not with the MediaWiki software. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 08:36, 11 December 2007 (CST)

(Update.) OrionFour, I did run with your suggestion however, as you can see here, which integrates the main article with the sub articles for the complete page. However, there's still no way for a user to dynamically pick what they want. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 10:58, 16 December 2007 (CST)

Yeah, we can split off the notes, analysis, and statements into their own separate sub-article. That'd work. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 08:36, 11 December 2007 (CST)

I strongly disagree. Unlike the miniseries, there's no logical breakpoint, and having analysis and synopsis on different pages is irritating and confusing - I'm personally glad we abandoned the practice with the miniseries articles. --April Arcus 13:29, 11 December 2007 (CST)

Well, the article is a bit too long. I moved the official statements to a subpage, since that can easily be put elsewhere. If we don't want to do that with analysis and notes too (which are very important), we could also move the dialogue. Then the article wouldn't really be short, but manageable I think. --Serenity 13:37, 11 December 2007 (CST)

The dialogue does take up a lot of the page, so we can probably move that to a seperate sub-page as well. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 17:00, 11 December 2007 (CST)

Any more comments on this? I moved official statements and dialogue to subpages. The article is still long, but fine I think. So as far as I am concerned, we don't need additional splits/moves. --Serenity 06:46, 16 December 2007 (CST)

The article is fine now. I've gone through and removed the split templates from the main page. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 09:58, 16 December 2007 (CST)

Merge: DVD

Shouldn't we move this to the DVD page? Kinda of irrlenevent here since it's not what was offically shown on TV? This is more like a bouns of the DVD, not Razor TV showing itself. A link should still be provided. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 01:33, 11 December 2007 (CST)

For me it's the same as the extended version of "Pegasus". The long version is the definite one. Besides, the additions are clearly separated, so you can easily see what's only on DVD. --Serenity 02:12, 11 December 2007 (CST)

Incorrect. The longer version is the "default" canonical one, since it is considered by the people behind the show to be the definitive version. Same thing goes for the extended version of "Pegasus" as Serenity said. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 08:33, 11 December 2007 (CST)

Gemenese

Did I hear correctly that someone mentioned the Gemenese collaborated during the First Cylon War? Maybe when Adama was on the ice planet. Huh? 16:24, 18 December 2007 (CST)

Never heard that... You may be thinking of the Diana, a ship from Gemenon that the the Cylons captured for their hybrid experiments. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 16:44, 18 December 2007 (CST)

Huh? (pardon the pun). They were abducted; as Joe said. What about those medical experiments looked even the least bit voluntary? --Serenity 16:45, 18 December 2007 (CST)

My PC speakers aren't the best. But I thought one of the captives mentioned it very quickly. I must be wrong. Huh? 11:44, 20 December 2007 (CST)

Colonial Officers - compromising one's credo

The Colonial military must have a different creed for their officer corps. I am a Lieutenant Colonel in the USAFR, and one of the first things that I learned was that the military was for the protection of the nation - and by extention, the citizens. And as the officer corps is responsible to ensure that this creed is upheld, seeing officers in "Razor" comply with an illegal order to kill people on the SCYILLA because these people wanted protection, and not be plundered in an act of piracy, is abhorrent. Lt. Shaw was understandably not happy about complying with the order, but if she had any integrity, she would not only have declined the promotion to Captain from Admiral Cain, she would have also resigned her commission and told Cain that she was nothing more than a corsair. Expatkiwi 12:28, 29 December 2007 (PST)

If the Scylla had happened before the Fall of the Colonies, maybe Shaw would have told Cain to stick her orders up her ass. However, there was nowhere to run from a crazy woman commanding (as far as she knew) the only remaining military ship left in the universe. The danger of Cain having her killed for such insurrection was very real, considering the order to shoot people on the Scylla and her murder of Jurgen Belzen. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 15:36, 29 December 2007 (CST)

The thing is, Cain can't singlehandedly kill everyone who disobeys an order. If enough people had refused to go with her course of action, they could have disposed of her. Her system only worked because enough people voluntarily went along with it. Probably not everyone, but enough to intimidate the rest. Though, Shaw refusing that promotion when she was alone with Cain probably wouldn't have gone over well. A coordinated mutiny might have worked however. --Serenity 15:52, 29 December 2007 (CST)

Good luck coordinating it when you've already killed someone on Cain's say-so and accepted the promotion that followed it ;) --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 16:00, 29 December 2007 (CST)

From a storytelling and character development perspective, the episode follows the molding of Kendra Shaw's character. There are powerful forces at play here: the difference in rank and authority between an admiral and an admiral's aide, the sheer force of Cain's personality, and the direness and desperation of the situation. This is a conflict between what is taught in the classroom and what is encountered in the field, where the commander sets the tone, with plenty of real-life examples.--Fredmdbud 23:48, 17 January 2008 (CST)

Experimented upon Humans in First Cylon War flashback

After watching the DVD version of Razor, I was convinced that the humans being tortured in the flashback were somewhat familiar. The fact that it looked like they were being intentionally obscured by makeup, camera angles and doors seemed like an invitation to look further.

I believe that after Adama puts his hand into the prototype vat:

• The first person you see behind the bars is a Leoben (or at least the human template).
• The person on the table being carved up with scalpels is Galen Tyrol.
• The disfigured lady behind the bars is a Number 8.

Which begs the question who is the terrified man and the child? Before I realised it was supposed to be a child, I presumed it was a Number 6. I was expecting to find reference to this somewhere on the web, but drew a blank; so I'm prepared to be wrong - but I'm almost 100% certain of the gentleman on the table being Galen. --Zaz 16:55, 1 January 2008 (CST)

Unfortunately, much of this is speculation and there's nothing to really support either interpretation, so you won't find much on it here. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 16:56, 1 January 2008 (CST)

Fair enough, but I do invite people to take a look. --Zaz 17:02, 1 January 2008 (CST)

Oh, it's definitely worth looking into. It's just impossible to support any definitive interpretation on those scenes. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 17:07, 1 January 2008 (CST)

An interesting idea. Someone else also pitched the idea somewhere around here that Tigh was the terrified man, that Adama rescued him and that that's how they became friends (this was when the "Razor" webisodes were released). However, Adama doesn't rescue anyone, and it was pointed out that Adama and Tigh first met after the war aboard a freighter (Scattered). --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 17:13, 1 January 2008 (CST)

Interesting speculation. Personally I always thought the Terrified Man at the very least sounded like a Leoben. You might try posting something on the Battlestar Forum and see what people think. --OrionFour 17:41, 1 January 2008 (CST)

relatively poor special effects in Razor

Firstly, I'll refer to the following from the article:

• A curious technical gaffe appears to occur as the smoke from the various fires in the shipyard travel upward. Unless the flames (which would appear as a globular "blossom" shape without gravity) jet upward, the smoke, with the lack of convection (heat rising upward as lighter gases against gravity), would expand in all directions opposite the flames or venting, not "up" relative to the battlestar or flames.
  • While this is true, it is possible that the ship yard is drifting, having lost attitude control due to damage which would leave a short trail.

Would a drifting object in space really leave a trail of smoke if the smoke is not propelled from the object with any counter-force (as that of rocket engine)? I'd have thought without the friction of an atmosphere, the smoke would continue with the same momentum [and in the same direction] as that of the object it originated from. Is anyone here a physicist?

If there are no forces acting on the object and the smoke, this would be true (within the inertial frame). If the object has angular momentum (rotating), this would create a curved trail.-- Fredmdbud 09:27, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I believe the special effects in Razor are simply of lower quality that that of the other RDM content. Other examples are:

• The explosion looks "cheap" when a Raider is destroyed during the Guardian's final attack on Pegasus (this scene is also in the teaser prologue).
• When Husker chases the two Raiders into the clouds, the ships seem to disappear prematurely.

Xlynx 22:51, 2 February 2008 (CST)

About that shipyard thing, because the fires would be above the shipyard's upper deck, is it possible that there could be a little gravity extending past the hull of the station? OR alternatively, could they have purposely put gravity on the shipyard for some reason? --Isidis 08:42, 3 February 2008 (CST)

You're right about the smoke, I noticed that too. Except it wouldn't necessarily expand unless it were contained within something. It would just be ejected at the same constant velocity and direction at which the burning oxygen escaped from the ship into space.

If my memory serves me correctly, BSG now uses in-house visual effects, as opposed to contracting the work out to outside organizations such as Zoic or Atmosphere. In-house effects, while considerably cheaper, are traditionally of less quality.-- OrionFour 21:10, 3 February 2008 (CST)

I should probably clarify this a little better. On Earth, the reason smoke rises as opposed to falling, is because the individual carbon atoms, which make up the vast majority of smoke, are lighter than the O2 atoms which make up the vast majority of our air, which forces them upwards. Because of this, smoke should never rise in space (in Razor, it not only is ejected, it curves and rises upwards, which is a physics gaffe). It should however continue at the same rate at which is was ejected (we're assuming this force comes from the force of depressurization).

Smoke doesn't really expand either, it billows, which gives the appearance of it expanding. Faster moving smoke pushes slower moving smoke out of the way, which creates an oscillating mushroom cloud affect, hence billowing smoke. In space, because there is no air resistance to slow down smoke, it should never billow. Instead it should continue outward at the constant velocity at which it was ejected, due to Newton's first law of universal motion. -- OrionFour 22:28, 3 February 2008 (CST)

Ok, I forgot about something important. When the air depressurizes, it must deppressurize to zero in space. This has the added effect of splaying out the air in all directions away from the hull breach, as molecules and atoms move away from each other until they exert zero pressure force on one another. This happens very quickly. The vectors remain constant, meaning that you shouldn't even see the smoke after a while, as the atoms become so far apart at a certain distance that the human eye wouldn't be able to distinguish it.-- OrionFour 01:04, 4 February 2008 (CST)

There has to be a little suspension-of-disbelief here. In all likelihood they were trying to evoke imagery of a Pearl Harbor-like nature, and the fire and smoke are some of the visual cues. There are other nods to convention that wouldn't make sense in reality ... Doppler-effect engine sounds in space? Viper engines that are always burning (constant acceleration), and reverse thrusters a fraction of the force able to rapidly decelerate, and attitudinal thrusters that seem to magically chnge the ship's momentum as well? All nods to what we and the general audience have grown accustomed to seeing ...-- Fredmdbud 23:54, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Pregnancy revisited

It isn't that clear, but in this promo pic she does appear to have a belly. -- Serenity 19:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, she's preggers. Costume department gave her the pregnant belly and everything. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Gaffes

We have a gaffes section for nearly every episode, why not for Razor? There is one gaffe at the least: during Starbuck and Showboat's flight back to the Pegasus, when Starbuck orders, "Alright, open up with all you've got; we're gonna shoot ourselves a hole" footage of a Viper Mark II's gun firing is used; however, Starbuck and Showboat are in Viper Mark VIIs. ZeldaTheSwordsman 17:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Gaffes should go here. We also have a field in the infobox that allows automatic linking to the gaffes page. Cheers -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Greystone in the goo?!

Can't believe this had not landed here yet. A smokin' hot debate as far as the identity of the mysterious Hybrid. Hybrid Zero seems to bear quite an uncanny resemblance to Dr. Greystone in many regards. Some just see this is as a given. One wouldn't really understand this until they watched Caprica and then looked back to Razor.

If so the Cylons chose a very cruel however just fate for their 'father'.

Let's step back and ponder what a Hybrid even is. If a Hybrid is in fact all that remains of gruesomely tortured human prisoners perhaps the horrors of the transformation are what causes their ultimate catatonic state and 'insanity'. Interestingly this state seems to be something the Hybrid can choose to come out of when he or she chooses. Maybe they choose not to be lucid simply because that means thinking about what they once were. Better to be just zeroes and ones.

But somebody with cast iron resolute will like Greystone. Through this incredible willpower a man like Dr. Greystone would not be broken perhaps. However this might make his fate far more Hellish than the others. He refuses to look away from what he helped create.

Cain's sister's fate?

One of those things you just... Feel.

Cain's sister vanishes. Presumed dead, but taken.

That Hybrid of the Rebel base star... Could it be? Moore seems purposefully vague as to the origins of Hybrids. If they are in fact vivisected human prisoners from the First War this makes you wonder.