Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

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Kara Thrace

According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.(Source) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the Final five). --Gen00b 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

But, since Kara Thrace reappeared in Crossroads, Part II, this adds more evidence that Thrace is a Cylon. It is possible that she is human, that she has discovered a method of human "Resurrection", but this is a highly dubious possibility. There is also a note on this page noting a section in the Battlestar Galactica Season Three Gag Reel where Katee Sackoff says herself that Starbuck is a Cylon and that she really dies in Maelstrom. We'll just have to see what happens in Season Four! --Stltcom 23:07, 21 July 2007 (CDT)Stltcom 22:15, 21 July 2007 (MST)

"Death" qualifier

I find the "Death" section under "Needed Qualifiers" to be rather confusing. It starts out by claiming that only humanoid Cylons can return from the dead, which is rather a dubious claim considering Starbuck's return; it's far from certain that she is the final Cylon. It also claims that no dead character could possibly return to the show as the final Cylon, yet I don't see why this would be true at all. In fact, on the Reboot version of this page, both characters listed are dead characters. It also references Characters eliminated from suspicion, but that article doesn't address the issue at all, or even list any "dead" characters as eliminated from suspicion.

Since Starbuck's return applies only to her very special case, it would make more sense just to describe her return as a possible indication that she is a Cylon, and remove the section entirely.--Hylas 15:29, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

We can only go, when no other data is available, on what we know. The reboot page is filled with some specious arguments, some use unaired information, such as on Joseph Adama, that are fanwanking since Caprica is unlikely to air (per Ron D. Moore's wife). The logic that the original page gives is, "If a Cylon, they can return." The reboot article also revives Helena Cain, although no such revival is taking place. The special episode Razor takes place in the past, and this article assumes she returns by surprise, which no episode information supports; by that logic, any dead human character could return. Why would Cain be so special?

I apologize for the confusion, Hylas. It's important that Battlestar Wiki never becomes a source unto itself, especially when it comes to the allowed, sourced original research we call here "derived content" (which is the reason this article exists). I have not noted the content of this article before, else I would have made issue of it since myself and other administrators here are responsible for insuring articles stay sourced and (not or) plausible. I will be marking this article for major cleanup and striking the information that is not germane, replacing it with what is known, officially, and exploring the clues that Ron Moore has given in the series as to the identity of the last Cylon. --Spencerian 18:00, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

It's the importance of sourced researched that forms the foundation of my objections to the section. As it is currently written, the section is specious, self-contradictory, and contains two significant unsourced claims:

• As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead... - We don't know that this is true. (If it were, it would imply Starbuck must be the final Cylon.)
• ...any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. - This conclusion does not follow in any logical manner from the first half of the sentence. On what basis can we categorically rule out the possibility of a dead character returning? While there is certianly no reason to expect that Cain, Joseph Adama, Elosha, or any other dead character will return as the final cylon, we have absolutely no basis for saying that it absolutely won't happen.

If we remove the problematic first sentence, we are left with a statement that a character returning from the dead might possibly be a Cylon, which really doesn't say anything, and contradicts claim made in the first part of the first sentence. The implications of Starbuck's return from apparent death can be discussed in the section relating specifically to her.--Hylas 19:20, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

Saying that someone returning from the dead greatly increases their odds to be the last Cylon sounds good to me. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 02:19, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Well, first off, I'm not a fan of Starbuck's return in the first place, as it does fly in the face of all reason. Otherwise the note makes perfect sense. This isn't fantasy and dead humans need to stay dead. Starbuck should really be the one exception to this and they need to find a good explanation for her return (like that she didn't really die in the first place). Saying that humans characters can return from the dead at will, doesn't make any sense.

Either we do what Catrope says, or we make an explicit exception for Starbuck, as we don't really know what happened to her. --Serenity 05:02, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

This isn't fantasy and dead humans need to stay dead. - But dead Cylons don't. Why would we assume that a character can't possibly be a Cylon, just because we have seen that character die? I can think of several plausible scenarios for a dead character being revealed as the Final Cylon. Perhaps none would be sufficiently well-supported to add to the article, but there's no reason that dead characters as a class should be categorically dismissed.--Hylas 10:25, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Technically, it doesn't say that dead characters can't be Cylons. It says that they shouldn't be considered Cylons unless they somehow return from the dead (which is why Starbuck is valid to speculate about). That was done to reduce the ridiculous amount of speculation that went on here. There is really no reason to suppose that any of the dead characters is a Cylon. They might be Cylons, but we have nothing to go on, until one of them shows up again through resurrection. I think that distinction is really the core of the problem here. You think the page states that dead characters can't be Cylons at all, which isn't really the case. They just shouldn't be considered Cylons - or Cylon candidates - per se for the purpose of the article. --Serenity 10:35, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

They just shouldn't be considered Cylons - or Cylon candidates... - That seems to be a very arbitrary editorial decision to me. As a hypothetical, let's say that a growing mountain of evidence is introduced in Season 4 pointing towards Elosha being a copy of the the final Cylon model. Why wouldn't we consider her to be a Cylon candidate just because she is dead?--Hylas 11:08, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Let me add to this conversation, because I feel that we need to address the whole "dead" criterion. The reason such a criteria exists is clearly due to the fact that anyone who has died could easily be a Cylon, which is, on some level, true. Otherwise this page should just as well say that "anyone can be a Cylon, except Helo and Cally because they're parents of known hybrid offspring". However, we need to be realistic here; there's one Cylon left, and clearly the rules for the Final Five are different than the Significant Seven. Also, given the hints that RDM's given in interviews, it is already someone we know. But to specify who's a Cylon and why out of a whole bunch of people who've ever been seen on screen (and also died), which seems to an assumed discussion point from my POV, is just too much for even an article.

Given that problem, I believe the page should be retooled to specify who isn't (or is least likely to be) a member of the Final Five. That would give us the smaller number and would be more to our benefit. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 11:40, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

The reason such a criteria exists is clearly due to the fact that anyone who has died could easily be a Cylon. - Certainly, I think we should be very strict in terms of the level of supporting evidence that should be required, and at this point I don't think there are any dead characters that have a strong enough case to warrant inclusion. I'm just saying there could be in the future, so they shouldn't be disqualified from consideration.

In terms of retooling, I'd be in favour of removing any sort of conclusions as to the high or low likeliness of a character being a Cylon. We could, for example, simply state that Starbuck has apparently returned from the dead, and that Ron Moore said he didn't want Adama or Roslin to be a Cylon, leaving the reader to draw conclusions from that evidence.--Hylas 12:21, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

That's something I can agree with. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 14:41, 1 July 2007 (CDT)