Talk:Scar/Archive 1

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --Ricimer 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

Plausible Parallel?

Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the episode in TOS in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "Space: Above and Beyond" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --Ricimer 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- Joe Beaudoin 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

The Gods don't want to hear from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of ambrosia as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! -- Ricimer 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --Sgtpayne 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury. None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge.  :) --Ricimer 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

Did they do it?

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --Peter Farago 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.

The podcast for this episode is vague; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the impression that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her _Adjective_ _Noun_ and Apollo proceeds to _Verb_ her _Adjective_ _Noun_ with his own (conspicuous) _Adjective_ _Noun_ however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he appears to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. --Ricimer 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --Peter Farago 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--Ricimer 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--Bane Grievver 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?-- Stratohead

Launch Gaffe

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the Galactica in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper II?--み使い Mitsukai 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --Peter Farago 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)

Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--Ricimer 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)

Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--み使い Mitsukai 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone else launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--Day 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --Peter Farago 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --Day 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

You are all driving me mad

Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --Peter Farago 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --Spencerian 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

Props Given on... Old Props!

Hey, did anyone else spot that Landram in the openning shot?--Ricimer 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)

I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --Redwall 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --Bane Grievver 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

Maybe somebody could get a shot of the landram for use on the References page? --Steelviper 10:04, 10 February 2006 (EST)

Where did the music come from?

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?

The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --Redwall 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: ~~~~. -- Joe Beaudoin 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)

Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

Picture

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the Scar (Raider) page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --BMS 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --Ricimer 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:

Any other ideas, lemme know. --BMS 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)

I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --Bane Grievver 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)

That's my favorite as well. --Peter Farago 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --Ricimer 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --Peter Farago 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

In a Room Somewhere...

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a very awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- Hawke 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)

Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It is a funny thing to imagine, though. --Spencerian 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)

For several years now, whenever I am at a convention where both Richard Hatch and Dirk Bennidict are guests...they seem to do their best to avoid even looking in each others direction.-- Stratohead

They have their own issues between each other that originated from the original series... -- Joe Beaudoin 18:06, 6 February 2006 (EST)

Kats Costume Change?

towards the end of the second act, we get the confrontation between Kat and Starbuck, where Kat punches Starbuck, just before Apollo comes in and orders them "Skids Up in 49 minutes." At this point Kat is wearing her flight suit (well...half wearing it.)... next time we see her she is wearing her duty uniform (blues) walking through the memorial hallway, pining up the picture of "Beano"'s(?) girlfriend...then back in her flight suit about to jump in her viper. Are we supposed to infer that this was her recollection/flashback while she was about to take off for her mission? or that with only 49 minutes to prepare for her C.A.P. she took the time to go change into her Blues...wander down to Memorial Hall...then go back..and resuit up for her C.A.P.? -- Stratohead

Well yeah, RDM mentioned that in the podcast; just don't read into everything so much. Yeah, a lot of camerawork/director stuff could be a flashback for the purposes of telling a story; I mean lots of shows intercut this kind of stuff. It's not big revelation. --Ricimer 18:02, 6 February 2006 (EST)

Scar's Kill Count

Mentioned in this episode, I believe Scar killed 5 viper pilots: Reilly, Beano, BB, Duck, and JoJo. I think Duck was the kid that came to Starbuck for advice since she was telling him to follow BB's lead and never turn but the conversation was a little confusing to me, and it sounded like both were splashed. So 5 Vipers were downed by Scar in this episode and probably a couple others in Resurrection Ship Pt II and mayber earlier episodes. I am certain I heard the name Duck but was confused a little by Starbuck's ommission of his name on the list at the end... -- StrayCat0

• Absolutely not. Duck was alive and well. He can be clearly seen in the finale toasting scene at the end. The audio you hear was of Duck shouting at BB to get away from Scar, but that's because BB got separated from Duck. Duck was fine. He was omitted from the list of the dead, because he is not dead.--Ricimer 17:58, 6 February 2006 (EST)

"I'm not dead yet..." --Day 16:29, 10 February 2006 (EST)

Disambiguation

Does anybody object to Scar pointing to a disambiguation between the episode and the Raider itself, rather than going straight to the episode? That's what we did with Pegasus. Rocky8311 11:44, 3 March 2006 (CST)

I prefer the Scar pattern to the Pegasus pattern. The disambig page doesn't contain anything meaningful, and if you intended to go to the other article you're still only one click away from it. Scar (Raider) and Scar (the episode) are both destinations, where a disambig page is just a road sign. In fact, I'd even support doing the same with Pegasus if not for the fact that there are three different possible Pegasus locations. Actually, thanks for the reminder, as I try to keep up with the Special:Disambiguations, and Pegasus is a common offender there. --Steelviper 12:12, 3 March 2006 (CST)

If we only have two things it's easier to have a link at the top of the page like we do, saying "for "Scar the Raider" see this page...",etc. Pegasus has a disambiguation page because there are like 5-6 things under that name. Most times, we don't need disambiguation pages (we do use them for like "Adama" or pilot callsigns re-used from the original series like Apollo and Starbuck. That's it. No need for a disambiguation page. --The Merovingian 13:53, 3 March 2006 (CST)

"Fullmetal Alchemist" name references?

My addition to the notes section:

"Majahal" and "Scar" are also the names of villains in the anime series Fullmetal Alchemist.

was undone with the following comment:

"The Merovingian (→Notes - I'm sorry but I've check wikipedia and googled, but there is no character named Majahal in FMA)"

Here are a couple refs:

• from Wikipedia's "Episodes of Fullmetal Alchemist":

While on their way to Central to try to take the State Alchemy Examination, Ed and Al take a detour to meet an alchemist named Majahal. Majahal’s name appeared frequently in their father’s correspondence in connection with human transmutation.

• official site (sorry, it's Flash, so I can't deep link... note also the different spelling):

Majhal is a very well respected Alchemist working to better the lives of the people living in his village. Ed and Al learn of him by seeing his name in letters exchanged between the lone Alchemist and their father regarding human transmutation.

If the only similarly-named character was "Scar", this would be too trivial to note, but Majahal/Majhal -> Majahaul is a more plausible candidate for a reference. --Invalidname

• A) It is not spelled the same B) it is so obscure that it does not warrant mention here. If these were the two primary villians on a show, there would at least be question, but this is just pushing it. --The Merovingian 21:18, 5 March 2006 (CST)

A worthy quote?

Kat's retort to Starbuck's "stim junkie" insult in the pilot's lounge: "One Tigh o­n the ship's enough." A brutal and efficient comment--killing two officers with one stone. Should it go in the Noteworthy Dialogue section?--BlueResistance 10:06 pm, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Actually, the parallel is even deeper - Kat's slugging Thrace in the face is extremely reminiscent of Thrace doing the same thing to Tigh in the miniseries. I've long felt that Kara was basically going to grow up to be Tigh eventually. --Peter Farago 21:29, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Thanks, Peter Farago. Added Kat's "Tigh" comment to the page. --BlueResistance 20:34, 7 March 2006 (EST)

Moved from Questions

Per BW:FORUM, these answers needed to be removed from the questions area. Here's what I removed. These points can probably be re-integrated into the analysis section, though I should reiterate that the analysis sections must not look like a thrice damned forum. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 02:34, 6 December 2006 (CST)

• • When BattlestarWiki asked the writer of this episode, Bradley Thompson, this question he said: "Sharon is speculating. She doesn't know, but it could have happened that way." So it remains an unconfirmed possibility.
  • It is likely that the Pegasus production facilities will create Mark VIIs, as the Pegasus is a more modern battlestar than Galactica (which does not have these facilities). Since the Mark IIs are outdated models that were only on Galactica for museum purposes, the blueprints and equipment molds in the production facilities are most likely not set to produce equipment for the older Vipers.
  • They may also decide to produce more of the stealth fighters, as they have now seen their combat and surprise capabilities. However, since these aren't robust fighters and sustain damage easily, the odds favor making more protection over stealth.
  • The three basic Cylon models represent something of a spectrum of advancement: from their original, purely mechanical form (the Centurions), to the almost-entirely "organic" forms (the humanoid Cylons). The Raiders are described (podcast, "Six Degrees of Separation") as supposed to be "in the gap" between Number Six and a Centurion. Centurions cannot resurrect, and they also contain none of the more advanced bio-mechanical technology the Cylons have developed (as demonstrated by destroyed Centurions, etc). Raiders, on the other hand, do contain "bio-mechanical" technology, albeit not as advanced as that used in humanoid Cylons. Perhaps the resurrection technology is based on that bio-mechanical "wetware".
    • Also, the Cylons may believe that fighter-piloting takes more skill than infantry combat.
  • Although humanoid Cylons are truly sentient, Raiders are not. Raiders do have a level of self-awareness, as an animal. Basestars make use of some bio-mechanical materials, but little else is known on how they use their bio-mechanics (This may be answered in a Season 3 episode).
  • Based on the population counts or Fleet status, it's not likely that the episode events are running concurrently. In "Black Market," the Fleet is united (else, Apollo could not fly to Cloud Nine or the Prometheus). In "Scar," Galactica and the Majahual are in one system while Pegasus guards the rest of the Fleet in another location.
  • As CAG of two battlestars, Apollo need not fly in every mission now with the relatively high levels of existing pilots and new recruits from Pegasus as well as Galactica's own pilots. Since Starbuck appears to have returned to her 2nd pilot in command status (acting as CAG in Apollo's absence), she manages some CAG responsibilities on Galactica, such as pilot briefings. Kat appears to brief pilots as well, suggesting she is higher in the pilot command chain than before.
  • There may have been bio-mechanical brains in storage we didn't see; also, the ship acts as a transmitter and could simply transmit their consciousnesses to accompanying basestars.

Asteroid spacing

The note about the unrealistic distances between asteroid is quite right (virtually the same mistake has often been made in the series' representations of nebular density), but we never see the asteroid belt in its initial state (i.e. before mining operations commenced). Maybe all those rocks flying around close to each other are debris from the blasting of one or two huge asteroids to get at the desired ore deposits.--Steve 06:07, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Citation

Per our Citation Jihad, we need a better source than Wikipedia. Sadly, Wikipedia is not a primary or secondary source -- an article from a scientific journal would work, Wikpedia does not. (Another thing against Wikipedia, particularly on the article that Boogaloo cited, is that it was listed as lacking sources itself!) Until we have a better cite, I've moved the bullet point here. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:43, 6 December 2006 (CST)

• A classic error made in most sci-fi franchises is made in this episode. It depicts asteroids in an asteroid field being in extremely close proximity with one another. In actuality, however, asteroids are normally spaced very far apart from one another. For more information, check out the 'In film and fiction' section of the Wikipedia article on asteroid belts.

• Oh, come on. It's basic science. Just look in any good scientific work and you'll find conformation that asteroids are spaced apart. And I doubt that all those rocks flying about were a result of the mining operations, or they would have got rid of them to stop them hindering the mining. Besides, if all those rocks were the result of one asteroid being blasted apart, it would have to be one MASSIVE asteroid. Boogaloo 09:48, 6 December 2006 (CST)

• • Regardless, it still needs to be sourced. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:25, 6 December 2006 (CST)

• Here's a source I found:

[[1]]

And here's the appropiate sentence from said source:

Spacecraft that have flown through the asteroid belt have found that the belt is really quite empty and that asteroids are separated by very large distances

Now there's a source. Can I put that little bit back in now? Boogaloo 11:27, 6 December 2006 (CST)

That's pretty "science-y". The web cite would probably be the best way to cite it. My only concern with it is that the whole article is about our solar system's asteroid belt, but being as small as they are I don't think we could have much definitive info about belts in other systems. So I'd favor slapping a web cite template with that site info, and actually not using the sentence or anything in the article. It's copyrighted text so it's better to just provide the link via the cite (so people can check it themselves). --Steelviper 11:53, 6 December 2006 (CST)

I agree with Steelviper that extrapolation from Sol's asteroid belt doesn't definitively peg this as an error. My understanding (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm mistaken) is that asteroids can either be closely spaced or not, but a system in which they are closely spaced is unstable - the collective gravity of so many bits of rock in close quarters will cause them to coalesce into some kind of planetary body. The context for what we see on screen is limited - for all we know the asteroids we see may very well be coalescing into one mass, but doing it slowly enough that it's not apparent within the time span of the episode.--Steve 03:45, 7 December 2006 (CST)

• Well, Sol's asteroid belt is a normal asteroid belt, so in a way it applies to all asteroid belts. And besides, I remember seeing countless asteroids in the distance during the episode. Well, regardless, whether it's a small asteroid or not, it's still an error. Asteroids are never (or extremely rarely at the very least) spaced so close together like they were shown. In deep space, objects rarely congregate so close together--they just hurtle through space. Obviously, the makers of the show used Star Wars as a reference on how asteroids are spaced. 2001: A Space Odyssey got it right: a passing through the asteroid belt is signfied by sighting of a lone, small asteroid shooting through space. Like it or not, it's an error, unless of course the Colonials collected asteroids and put them all together as some sort of bizarre pilot training course or something. Boogaloo 05:10, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Sol's asteroid belt is typical for a planetary system of a certain age, but the age of the system the Fleet is mining is never made clear (of course, it has nothing to do with the story). I fully agree that the environment depicted in the episode can't exist in a fully formed planetary system. However, as I understand it, in a young star's protoplanetary disk there would be regions like this, with gas, dust, and rocks of varying sizes all converging to form new and larger planetary bodies. This explanation (that they are mining a dense region in a protoplanetary disk, rather than a Sol-style asteroid belt) would fit nicely with the apparent density of the interplanetary medium in this episode's space sequences - it's so dense that the Vipers have visible wingtip vortices. I share your beef with conventional depictions of asteroid belts, I'm just not sure this qualifies as a clear scientific error or breach of naturalism. --Steve 06:13, 7 December 2006 (CST)

• Well, I doubt that it would that, as I highly doubt that the Colonials would as imbecilic as to mine in a trubulent proto-star system. And I'd say that it's just a plain scientific error, as nearly all sci-fi franchises make the same mistake. Boogaloo 07:26, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Though I imagine it has more to do with the fact that the tight clustering of the asteroids is far more visually appealing. They'd probably accuse the VFX team of laziness if they sent back a rendered scene of just one or two asteroids in frame. --Steelviper 07:42, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Yeah, I guess you're right. But it's still an error, and I'm going to put it back in, unless someone objects. Oh, and has anyone noticed another error made in the series: asteroids are depicted as having gravity, whereas in real life they don't have enough mass for gravity. Although on the other hand they could have been outfitted with artificial gravity generators...Boogaloo 09:41, 7 December 2006 (CST)

I wouldn't object to the readdition as long as it comes with the citation. --Steelviper 10:32, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Ditto. That was my only issue with it anyway and now it's been satisfied. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:35, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Well, in it goes then. Boogaloo 13:31, 7 December 2006 (CST)

As an astrophysicist in the making, I back up everything Steve wrote (all his theories are quite correct), and even dare to reply to Boogaloo regarding his comment about how "imbecilic" it'd be to mine a proto-planetary disc; In fact, despite being turbulent, it is much easier to mine a undiferentiated, proto-planet than an eons old asteroid. (undifferentiated means that heavier elements have not yet sank deeper than lighter ones). I would like to see the part about this being a sci-fi error deleted, as it is not an error per se: it is merely a situation we are not used to. Tanketai 05:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Helo and Sharon

I might be wrong, but it hit me that this might be the first episode in which Helo and Sharon both appear, but don't have a scene together. If so, is it worthy of mention? --JemHadar359 23:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)