Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive4

• Archive 1 (April 2, 2005 to January 23, 2006):

12 Cylon or 12 Humano-Cylon models?, Same, yet Different?, Origin of the Term "Humano-Cylon"?, Hybrids/Sharon's daughter article?, Order of Models, Re: Adama and Gaeta being ruled out as "Humano-Cylons", Ellen Tigh, Cylon Series Revision, Did Boomer really know the count of infiltrators, List of people who are ruled out as Cylons?

Replacement and retirement of article title

This discussion's origin originated in the Standards and Conventions talk page, where you can find the original content.

Per the discussion in the above link, I plan to move this article to Cylon agent, as it is the most commonly used term to describe the humanoid Cylon models. "Humano-Cylon" will redirect here, and we will need to scour for other terms to redirect as well. This name is sufficiently canonical that it is unlikely that further debate is required. --Spencerian 14:58, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Go for it. Though with an article title of "Cylon agent", it would be great to have a screen capture of the file on Laura's desk that has that wording on it. --Steelviper 15:04, 14 February 2006 (EST)

I may just spend $2 on iTunes to get just that. --Spencerian 15:14, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Move completed; no Big Thang. Summary subarticle in Cylon series pages also updated. Please update any pages for old terminology when appropriate. --Spencerian 15:33, 14 February 2006 (EST)

Am I right in saying that all references to Humano-Cylon should be changed to Cylon agent> --Grafix 08:12, 6 March 2006 (CST)

That's correct. We're going with "Cylon agent" since the only evidence indicating "Humano-Cylon" (see below) may have been doctored by the Cylons to throw us off... --Steelviper 08:19, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Just to clarify; they made the picture below as a joke. Really, we discussed it on our Conventions page, and "human-cylon" seemed too much like describing the Hybrid, and hasn't gained much outside use, so we opted for something else. --The Merovingian 14:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Known Cylon Agents

That pic is AWESOME! It fits the section so well that I would normally suspect that it had been photoshopped (if I hadn't already seen it in the show). --Steelviper 17:00, 15 February 2006 (EST)

Perhaps you moved the article too soon...

I'll likely delete this image soon. I just had the idea of Photoshopping the folder after the preceding post. --Steelviper 18:19, 15 February 2006 (EST)

Photoshop: Suitable tool, or instrument of Satan? --Spencerian 21:37, 15 February 2006 (EST)

Naming Convention

As of "Downloaded" we now finally know some other Model numbers besides Number Six: "D'anna Biers" is Number Three, "Aaron Doral" is Number Five, and "Sharon 'Boomer' Valerii" is Number Eight.

In light of this, should we change the title of some, or all, of their character articles to read "Number Three", etc. like for Number Six? Because apparently, among themselves the Cylons never actually use the fake human names some used as spys, or indeed refer to themselves by name at all. --The Merovingian 02:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I would think that the unfortunately named Number Two is a pretty thankless job. --The Merovingian 03:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Yes, where those numbers are known. I broached the subject on Talk:Sharon Valerii and am currently awaiting a little more feedback before we go ahead with the move. --Peter Farago 03:07, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Do the Cylons tend to look out for Number One? Philwelch 03:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Number One is not a number, he is a man. --The Merovingian 03:10, 25 February 2006 (EST)

A free man? Philwelch 03:24, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I agree with changing the title of ALL articles referring to the mainstream model, making two new for D'anna and Aaron (the media models) like we did for the sharons and sixes.--Sauron18 25 February 2006

When did "we" start calling them "Galactica-Boomer", "Caprica-Boomer", "Pegasus-Six", etc? You see, Televesionwithoutpity.com does make up and popularize terms like this....but I'm not sure if they STARTED using it, or if they TOOK UP using it from some reviewer or the messageboards. I seriously think this is one of those Stand Alone Complex things; we all just more or less independently, from the grassroots up, got the idea to do that. Anyone? --The Merovingian 04:49, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Pretty much. --Peter Farago 14:03, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I generally compel the proper use of "Boomer" to the Galactica model only, as she is the copy that actually served. No one in episodes have called the Caprica copy by that name, and things are confusing enough. "Caprica-Valerii" or "Galactica-Valerii" (or Boomer) is better. Otherwise, yes, we have to make things up until we get an official term, but we should be consistent and precise about it. Never use Sharon in any context--use of character first names only is against wiki convention in episode summaries. --Spencerian 17:19, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Actually, Baltar called Caprica-Sharon "Boomer" at the end of Home, part 2. But what does he know?--Noneofyourbusiness 18:55, 9 March 2006 (EST)

Question: a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness...

I just started watching BSG about a week ago and im only part way through season 2, but I'm thinking isn't there a way for the Galactica crew to stop the cylon agents they kill from transmiting their consciousness? Cant they put the agent in a room with thick metal walls to stop the signal, or put their bodies into a woodchipper, or something similar, so whatever system in the body that transmits will be destroyed? In season one they just tossed the agent out an airlock, they didn't even try to stop him. I guess they really haven't explained yet how it is even possible for the agent's body to come up with enough energy to transmit their entire consciousness in an undetectable signal instantly across several light years. Maybe they'll get to it in a future episode, including the ones I haven't seen yet. Right now, its very magical fairies. --Bp 17:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)

It comes up a bit later. Specifically, right after the mid-season cliff-hanger of Season 2. Not all your questions will be answered, but it becomes less magical. *wink* --Day 02:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Grace Park Reveals Cylon Secrets....

MediaBlvd's interview with Grace Park was releasd in the full today, revealing a few more things about the nature of the Cylons that had not been released before. A lot of things are Park's own point of view, but she does mention a few interesting facts she read in the "Cylon Handout". Some of these facts include:

" Because Cylons were created in the form of humans, and humans were created in God’s image, and Cylons want to be close to God, they can actually choose - but some models more likely than others tend to eat rather than just taking in nutrients. We just learned all this, I didn’t even know it, but taking in nutrients, I think through the skin"

"There would be specific ports in the Cylon base ship that they could do this, and they can also do that with information."

"- it wasn’t a very specific jack, like your phone jack in the wall. Nothing like that in her arm."

"A little bit of both of that. Within one model, the different bodies can share memories, but within that model only. Now I use the words ‘CAN share memories,’ because it’s not like they all automatically share them. I’m under the understanding that you can choose to upload, and you can choose to download information."

"- that the Cylons that we’ve known so far are programmed not even to think about the last five."

These are the actual facts she mentions, amidst her opinions, but what I posted were the solid facts. The last one had already been mentioned before, but this comment clarified that it's not that they don't know who they are, they just don't think about them.

There are also some other interesting tidbits in there (such as why exactly the Naked Sharons let themeselves die) which may help other articles.

I wanted to ask before posting any of this information, it's all solid and concise, but should we nonetheless abstain from putting in the bits we got (because we have nothing else and it would prove to be tantalizing). I think we should put it in, since they are actual facts from the new "Cylon Bible", but I wanted to pass it here so that you can judge on where to put them and how to word them. (Cuz I suck at actually adding it on the article, so I'd rather share the info and let someone else do the fine tuning on the article itself)

For the full interview: http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/MBMag_20060420145.html

--Sauron18 17:22 09 May 2006

That's kind of how I always rationalized they must share info; not between models, not a hive mind, they CAN but don't alaways. This "nutrient bath" thing is new and intruiging though. "This form brings us closer to God"; yeah I was already theorizing on this after that comment in KLG II that that's why they wanted to appear humanlike. Anyway, great to get some more or less confirmation on those musings/speculation. ***I don't know why, but some people treated it as a "oh my God, massive spoiler" that the 7 known Cylon models might not consciously think of who the unrevealed ones are. I mean, it doesn't actually affect the plot or ANY of our speculation so far; always assumed they had some sort of saftey feature like that for secrecy. I wonder: was this "Cylon Bible" RECENTLY written? The Series Bible was written in the break between the Miniseries and season one. Of course, they could have had these Cylon points as running ideas in the writer's room, but is this new, written down 10 page-ish long "Cylon Bible" something new she got? Context. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 21:26, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

It seems the series bible did not containt detailed information on the Cylon Characters beyond the basics, the new bible is specifically made for Cylons I think, probably detailing some history, both personal and such, and the kind of things that may help an actor understand who/what they are playing.

Also, this nutrient bath may be the reason we saw the Sharons naked in KLG2, rather than the Cylons being nudists., and maybe that's also why that part of the Basestar is organic, because it feeds the Ships and the Agents. Guess we'll know in Season 3 --Sauron18

Well I always thought they were naked just because they were "fresh off the assembly line" or "in storage" or whatever; like Terminator. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 16:09, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Maybe, but with the Resurrection Ship.... --Sauron1810 May 2006

So wouldn't the Grace Park interview indicate that the evidence "against" Baltar being a Cylon presented in Downloaded is pretty much bupkis? If the agents arent supposed to think of him as an agent, they'd call him a human. In fact, Baltar's behavior is so selfish it borders on cliche. It would seem to me that he would fit the "selfish asshole" archetype of humanity pretty damned well. --Number Thirteen 01:04, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

telepathic abilities

When Sharon met here "sisters" in the basestar, she could hear their voices. Could that mean, that she has telepathic abilities? Or possibly a kind of relaying made this possible? -- Tirkon 12:06, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Hi, Tirkon. We really don't have any information into the actual manner in which agents transfer low level data (specifically, their memories). They aren't like the Borg; they haven't a collective consciousness. For Boomer to "hear" their voices may suggest that she (as a sleeper) was hearing this low level data transfer for the first time, and being on a basestar may have exacerbated this ability. Agents very likely share data from a collective knowledgebase (since models of the same kind seem to know much of what another model knows, to a point). Since Cylon agents are still constructs, the concept of telepathic abilities suggest implausible things that attribute more biological (even spiritual) concepts to these constructs that probably don't apply; a machine can definitely transmit and receive data (something proven in "Downloaded") so this is the best way to consider Boomer's realization, in my opinion. --Spencerian 12:22, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

humanoid cylons stronger than humans

I think, it is confirmed, that the humanoid cylons are stronger than humans. I.e. confirmed by the fights Starbuck-Number Six, Starbuck-Leoben and William Adama-Leoben. In particular during the fight Starbuck-Number Six Six throws Starbuck as hard as a human never could. During "Downloaded" Six slays Number Three with a huge piece of concrete, which never could be handled so easy by a human. And this piece must have bean very heavy, because the head of Number Three was mud after that. -- Tirkon 12:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

That's generally true. While their bodies are still just as vulnerable to injury as a human body, their strength is definitely greater, although we can't state by how much. We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size, but are not strong enough to bend steel bars (otherwise captured agents could escape their cages). --Spencerian 12:57, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

>We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size ... and throw it about four meters. -- Tirkon 13:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

And there seems to be a little disaccord. If one is strong enough for doing that, he also must be heavy enough for doing that (balance weight). That is opposite to the sex between Baltar and Six, when Six was lying on him (the read vertebral column in miniseries). -- Tirkon 13:39, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

humanoid cylons = agents?

You always talk here from the humoid cylons as agents. Is that realy true? Are they ALL!! agents? Possibly the word "agent" does not have the same meaning in Englisch and German. -- Tirkon 12:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

The term "Cylon Agent" came from the show. See the name note at the bottom of the article. So it's mostly a matter of trying to be "canonical" than trying to imply any sort of affiliation or loyalty. --Steelviper 12:50, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Aaaaaah! Thanks for that claricifation. :o) In the german Battlestar version the term "agent" is not as common. German Wikipedia points out a difference between the english and german use of term "agent". Thus this could be a matter for that. Further the view of some cylons ("the heros in "Download") has changed. Thus in german Battlestar Wiki I have used "humanoid cylon" instead of "cylon agent". And with you comment I am safe, that this dicision was adequate. Sorry for cannot beeing as precise as I would. But I am not a native english speaker. -- Tirkon 13:23, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Maybe its just me but i always loved the term Humano-Cylon ^_^ --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 13:30, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Not a problem! Looks like everything worked out. Also, bear in mind that the standards and conventions of the particular wiki should rule for its articles. That is to say, the German Wiki's standards and conventions should govern the articles at the German wiki. Don't let the English version restrict you at all. As long as you're consistent with your own rules there the German reader/editor will have a more standard/uniform experience. (Though you may want to update that page once you've established new conventions). --Steelviper 13:34, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

>want to update that page At present we are just two translaters. And we are still going to built up the structere and translate the episodes and the most important characters. At this state such conventions are not the point. ;o) And the human cylons was until now the only point, what was a little problematic for me. Thus I wanted discuss this with the well-versed people here. And this was helpful :o) -- Tirkon 13:55, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Unseen cylon agent (miniseries)

In the miniseries, Number Six mentions to Baltar that she is meeting someone (26:35 into the miniseries) when they are walking in public prior to the attack. She leaves Baltar and immediately meets with an unseen person (27:12), remarking "It's about time, wondered when you'd get here". This person can only be a cylon - but they never appear on screen. Who could it be?

--cfuse 06:48, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Anyone. It could also be just another very human bloke Six had contact with during her time on Caprica. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:10, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Cylon naming and instancing

Cylons agents (including sleeper agents) appear to be able to distinguish different instances of the same cylon model from one and other without any difficulty. In Downloaded, 'Sharon' seems to have no difficulty in identifying individual cylons apart, despite the fact that all cylons of a given model are visually identical. In addition, she is admonished for using her name because it is a vestige of her human identity and presumably redundant in cylon society.

--cfuse 06:57, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Honestly, we don't know how they do it, and I doubt that it'll ever be explained in the series. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 10:13, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Centurions

It's been added that Cylon Centurions can't tell the difference between copies of the same model, but that's not what Adama said. He said that they can't tell one humanoid Cylon (ex: Sharon) apart from any other humanoid Cylon. Noneofyourbusiness 18:51, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

A word about Number Three

The entry about Number Three says, that of all the Cylon agent models revealed to viewers, the Colonials are not yet aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon agent as of the season two finale, "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II."
Oh, c'mon. In "Downloaded" D'Anna, along with other Cylons, was clearly seen by Samuel Anders. In "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" Anders arrives on Galactica - did you think that he hasn't told the others about what he saw on Caprica? The moment Anders was rescued by Starbuck&Co., the true identity of D'Anna was no longer a secret (hence her presence on New Caprica).-- Spike 17:29, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

Hi, Spike. Aside from the article now being out of date, the specific clarification you're missing is "of all the Cylon agents revealed to viewers, the members of the Fleet are not aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon as of "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II."" Galactica's members and her Fleet may still be unaware that the one named D'Anna is a Cylon (but has likely received intel from their Raptor deployments in Season 3). Anders (although a Colonial) was not part of the Fleet until the end of LDYB and may have not seen the documentary that Biers created, thus not being able to inform the Fleet of yet another Cylon. It is likely that he does inform them; we as viewers aren't enlightened to this until the obvious events on New Caprica where all known agents are revealed to them. (Please be sure to sign your comments; place a couple of dashes and four tilde symbols (~). --Spencerian 16:32, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

Cylons as the Lords of Kobol

Given the 12 models of Cylon Agents, it seems possible that they represent the 12 Lords of Kobol. Many of the models seem to have traits associated with the Olympians. I’m not suggesting that the Cylons actually are the gods themselves, but copies of the gods. They may or may not know that they represent the gods. A list of the Olympians matches fairly well with what we know about some of the Cylons. (In particular, the Number 6 / Aphrodite connection is almost undeniable.) Some agents who we know less about (Simon, Cavil) are a looser fit.

Poseidon, God of the Sea. Holds influence among the Olympians, but is greedy and quarrelsome. - Cavil? || Hades, God of the Underworld. Unpitying, always in control of his domain. Abducted a woman to be his wife – Leoben || Hera, Zeus’s wife. Holds great influence, constantly schemes. - Number 3 || Ares, God of War. A brutal murderer, but also a coward. - Number 5 || Athena. A fierce soldier and protector of her people. - Number 8 || Aphrodite, Goddess of Beauty. Holds great power over men. - Number 6 || Hephaestus, God of the Forge. Skills are mental, and creation, not a fighter. - Simon

This leaves Zeus, Hestia, Apollo, Hermes, and Artemis as the remaining unknown Cylons. Does anyone else think there may be something to this, or have better fits for some agents? --PhoenixDreams 14:24, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

I've definitely considered the possibility that the Cylon Models and the Lords of Kobol are intimately connected for quite a while. The problem always was that the Greek Pantheon did not neatly end up with a dozen gods, so there was a fair amount of guess work for the what the remaining Lords of Kobol were. For example, I doubt Hestia will be one of them: she's a fairly obscure goddess. Demeter or Dionysus are more likely candidates.

I really like some of the parallels you've come up with though. Aphrodite=Six was always the fairly obvious one, and I've considered Sharon as Athena. I quite like the parallels between Leoben and Hades. All of the other parallels you've come up with work. It's just that without knowing all of the Lords of Kobol and all of the models, and what roles they will ultimately play, it's hard to say exactly how everyone fits. Sure, at the moment Number Six seems to obviously be the Aphrodite of the Cylons, but with her obsession with childbirth, I sometimes wonder if she's destined to be Artemis. Not that she's especially virginal. Alpha5099 14:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

They could be the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one for each of the 12 Colonies, which then of course suggests there may be a 13th secret model to correspond to Earth. Yaneh 13:28, 15 November 2006 (EST)

The 5 remaining agents

I think it is apparent that the function of the 5 remaining agents is different from the function of the 7 known agents (my analysis) since the 7 seem to be making decisions on both New Caprica and on the basestar about Baltar and the other 5 are not. Additionally, we have Aaron Douglas's speculation on their status and there is probably other evidence but I honestly haven't done any research on that. Is there enough beef behind this line of reasoning to say that it's not speculation on my part and is worthy of putting SOMETHING on the article page? --Straycat0 21:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

It's certainly speculation, and moreover, it's based on spoilers. --Peter Farago 21:25, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Possibilities

I wonder if there is a non-humanoid sapient Cylon we haven't seen yet, maybe something too large to effectively move around (perhaps stuck on the Cylon homeworld that the Cylons disappeared to after the first Cylon war). It could explain a number of things, including how the Cylon agents came into being -- perhaps they are a sort of iPod version of the non-humanoid sapient Cylons, fitting a technological sapience into a more convenient humanoid form.

Centurions themselves nor their ships could not have been all there was to the Cylons in the days of the first Cylon war -- how could they rebel? They simply follow orders and carry them out. There must have been *something* or *someone* in those days to alter their programming if not have some sort of control seizure to make them rebel against the human Colonials. It may have originally been some sort of central server-like system.

Its just a wild idea, and probably not what the writers have in mind, but something like it could explain some of the seeming inconsistencies and plot holes. Something completely different could also work, I suppose. The Centurions certainly don't seem to have true sapience, and I doubt they have any religious conceptions. --Itsua 08:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)

There's a lot we don't know about the Cylons past. However, it's been hinted at that the old Centurions had artifical intelligence, which allowed them to think independently. The new Cylon Centurions, however, don't have a true artificial intelligence since the Cylons themselves didn't want their own machines to rebel against them (this is established in "Precipice", by the way). -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:01, 9 November 2006 (CST)

It seems improbable that the Cylons were originally just Centurions whom later created the Agents, unless the original Centurions were just as sapient (if not moreso) as the Agents. I'm hoping/guessing the origin of the Agents will be explored in future episodes, and perhaps Caprica will explain more of the Cylon origins. --Itsua 06:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

I got the distinct impression that the Centurions were originally true AIs and created the skinjobs over intermediate stages like the Raiders and Hybrids. But then the skinjobs - in a nice parallel to humanity - enslaved the Centurions and stripped them off most of their intelligence. As said all that is touched on in "Precipice" --Serenity 06:22, 11 November 2006 (CST)

Major Revision

I've made heavy reorganization and concisions to this article to make it easier to discern the nature of these characters. I've removed data redundant with episode or character articles, and also removed a great deal of fanwanking material that was introduced into the article. The article is still on the long side; further concision to reduce redundancies with other articles is appreciated. --Spencerian 09:12, 10 November 2006 (CST)