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RDM: Hello and welcome to the podcast for episode 20 of epi- of season two. I'm Ronald D. Moore, executive producer and developer of the new Battlestar Galactica.
Eick: And I'm David Eick, court jester.
RDM: And we're here to discuss the season finale. Yes, it's all come down to this, boys and girls. And we have a 90 minute special to go through and lots of ground to cover. This episode really deals with possibly every single plot thread we've established in the show and tries to deal with it in some fashion, which is in part the reason why this ultimately became a 90 minute episode.
Eick: We experienced this a number of times this year, as some of you may know. We broke a story that was intended to be the first episode of the second ten of season two called "Resurrection Ship", which after Michael Rymer got done with it, became "Resurrection Ship, Parts 1 and 2".
RDM: Almost three.
Eick: And even before that- yeah, almost three- and even before that, "Pegasus" wanted to be a 90 minute and we were unable to move the various pieces that were required to make that happen and I think we were just able to get it under the wire as a one hour episode. But this one when it came in, we just knew. There was definitely a two hour version- well, there's definitely a 90 minute version, there might have been a two hour version, but there for sure was not a one hour version.
RDM: Yeah a one hour. 'Cause Rymer's cut- the one that Rymer gave to us was what, 20 something minutes long?
Eick: Yeah. In fact it was a different cut, but it was actually almost exactly this running length.
RDM: Oh, was it?
Eick: Yeah. It would have aired as a 90 minute episode and it was missing things that we missed and felt was needed, and had things in it that we didn't think were as necessary. But it was very clear- because he had been working on it, at that point, for weeks trying to get it down that far. And and so we were- it was nothing but shear panic and alarm at first because when you say to a network, "Well, we got a show that is supposed to air in a one hour slot and we need you to give us more time," the ripple effect of that is pretty cataclysmic. I mean they gotta go to their advertisers, their sales people, and their scheduling people, and it affects other shows and other programming, and so it was a big deal getting them to approve this and you know, thank goodness that they did.
RDM: And we briefly tried to make a two hour version of this which could have been easier for everybody 'cause then you could always carve it up into two discrete episodes. But the two hour by sort of universal agreement dragged. It didn't really have the pace. It just went on too long. And it's still- even then it was still a little short. It didn't quite actually make it to two hours.
Eick: The other oddity about this structure- and I realized this on the dub stage yesterday- is that they open with the recap and then go right to the main title.
RDM: Yeah, it does.
Eick: Now, I don't know... Is there a commercial after the main title?
RDM: There's a commercial after the main title.
Eick: Oh so the audience doesn't even get any original material before they gotta go to commercial?
RDM: I don't think so, unless they- maybe they restructure it on air which you can tell us. But I believe we go from main title to first commercial break.
Eick: Oh. Well yeah. Please tell a friend not to change the channel during the uh...
RDM: Because I think that was dictated by the way acts had to be structured for 90 minutes, like teaser or whatever it was was so long that it was ridiculous to put the main title, you know, like 12 minutes in or 15 minutes into the show or something.
Eick: I'd also say, just to be totally candid, 'cause I know Ron has spoken and he certainly reflected my opinion as well about some of the episodes in the second half of season two that weren't favorites. And it was really encouraging getting into "Downloaded" and then to the first part of this episode and now this one, to really kind of get back to what I think excites both of us about the show and a lot of that has to do with the fact that we have Michael Rymer back directing of course.
RDM: Yeah.
Eick: But I'm really proud of this one in particular. This really kind of has, in its own way, all the pathos, all the emotional potency, and a lot of the danger and the darkness that I think make Battlestar Galactica a unique show. It's really- it took some doing to get it there, but I think this is definitely one of the better episodes.
RDM: Yeah, I'm very proud of the show. This is a- I like it because ultimately where it goes at the end. It's a risky show. It's pushing the boundaries of what the show is... What your preconceptions of the show should be. By the end of the episode, once we make the giant leap forward, you start feeling like "Oh my God, anything's possible. What are these maniacs doing?" They've really dynamited the entire Galactica universe and started over. That's a really refreshing, fun thing to do in a television series because typically, you're making the same show week in week out, to a large extent. You're not varying the format so much that you're really challenging people, by and large. I mean every sh- that's not an absolute rule. But it's great to be able to really be true to what the premise of the show is, and take it into these sort of different directions periodically.
Eick: Now where- this thing gets published on the internet before the show airs.
RDM: It goes out that day... the same day as the broadcast.
Eick: So are we gonna talk-
RDM: We can talk about- oh yeah, we spoil- I spoil the episode all the time. Anyone who listens to the podcast wants to be spoiled. They're gonna know the whole plot. We can talk about the-
Eick: Alright. We can talk about the fact that Tyrol ends up in a gay relationship with Tigh...
RDM: Secret, gay forbidden love with Tigh.
Eick: Brokeback Galactica.
RDM: Brokeback Galactica.
(Eick clears throat)
Eick: We definitely were lucky to get the 90 minute because one of the things that had to go if we didn't was this entire Tyrol-Cally storyline.
RDM: Yeah. Oh the one hour is- I mean we did actually have to cut a one hour- 'cause actually...
Eick: Yeah, for international.
RDM: For international consumption we actually had to do a one hour version and it's almost incomprehensible. And all the joy of this episode is just completely gone. It's just like- races you through little pieces.
Eick: Yeah, and if you happened to see the previous week and you're waiting on the edge of your seat to at least get some sense of closure between Cally and Tyrol after this terrible thing he's done to her, um... you won't be getting any of that. (Laughs).
RDM: No. So for those of you in Spain, I'm really really sorry.
Eick: (Laughing) Sorry.
RDM: Tell your people to buy the 90 minutes from now.
Eick: Um this particular section plays really well for me because, as some of you may know, I'm usually the voice of the 14 year old saying "Don't forget the action." And I love the fact that we open this episode- and this is pretty good combat stuff that Rymer got...
RDM: Yeah, we got some juicy action right there in front of you.
Eick: And that Andy Seklir did a magnificent job cutting together because it's always tough with this stuff. And you know, the show really is not an action show. Battlestar Galactica is a show with action elements to it, but because it's not an action show, we're not set up to do days and days of action photography. We don't have a full-time second unit director to mop up action scenes. And so our ability to do action, in some respects, depends on how on our game we are during prep and how good the director is at that particular discipline.
RDM: Mmhmm.
Eick: And I would say action is not Michael Rymer's favorite thing to do. So when he does it really well, I'm very happy. (Laughs) And this is...
RDM: (Laughing) He doesn't like it. Surprising- he's really good at it, but he doesn't especially enjoy it. I think- from- I- I...
Eick: It's very technical.
RDM: I would suspect for maybe the same reasons I don't enjoy writing it. They're not my favorite scenes to write or action scenes. They are very technical. It's about calling out shots. And it's really in the hands of the director to figure out the rhythm of an action scene, when you cut to certain people, what Kara's gonna do, how high she gets up on an obstacle- I mean all these things are very camera-specific. And for a writer, I just don't find them that really intriguing. So I tend to sort of- "'The Civil War begins', he writes". (Laughs)
Eick: Or or or "They enter the arena and race".
RDM: Yes.
Eick: Yeah, they're very difficult to- in fact, uh um- often times they're not only the hardest to write, they're the dreariest to read. And there's nothing good about them except for watching them.
RDM: Yeah, except for watching them. (unintelligible)
Eick: But I think um...
RDM: I love this look on Kara's face here at the end of that scene. The way (unintelligible).
Eick: Well honestly a lot of it does come down to the performances. You're as invested in an action scene as the actors are forcing you to be and...
RDM: Yeah, we got really lucky, obviously, with her.
Eick: This was- the first time I saw this episode this was my favorite Mary McDonnell scene in ages just because it's such a different color for her. (Laughs)
RDM: Oh I know. I love the fact that she finally says "frak" and she apologizes immediately for it, "I'm sorry my language".
Eick: Also this was the episode where I think we all sort of agree that Tory was gonna- was here to stay.
RDM: Yeah.
Eick: She's a really interesting character. She's a very different energy than Billy was. I love the way Mary plays against her.
RDM: Tory's somebody we should find the first couple of episodes the next season. Yeah, what happened to Tory during the occupation?
Eick: Yeah, I have that note actually.
RDM: Do you? Oh good! We're actually- as we speak, David and I, just before the podcast began we were discussing episodes one and two of season three because I've written the first drafts of the first two episodes and we're starting to sort of figure out exactly what season three is. Yeah, Tory. We should do something with Tory.
Eick: Yeah, yeah. She's a really nice foil in a way- in her own way- for the Laura character, where as Billy was sort of a professional sycophant. I mean it was always impressive when he would stand up to her but it was a big shift for him. I think in a way we're playing the opposite rhythm with Tory.
RDM: Yeah, Tory's more her own woman.
Eick: She's gonna be in Laura's face, maybe in some respects more than Laura wants her to be.
RDM: Yeah, I like that. I like that aspect of the character and she's capable of some nasty shit too. I mean she's gonna - due to the election stuff coming up here.
Eick: Yeah.
RDM: This is like an example of the art department doing a lot with very little. They had no budget to do this with. I think I wrote in the script that they were in a redoubt, I called it, or a pillbox or something that uh-
Eick: First time I've ever heard that word. Redoubt. (higher voice) Redoubt.
RDM: And Anders and his guys had some fallback position way up on this mountain, and there was literally almost nothing in the budget to make this thing, whatever it was and Richard Hudolin like tearing out his hair a little bit. But then they just came up with this very simple sort of wall which kind of communicates a fortified position without having to actually build a gigantic thing that would break the budget.
Eick: Michael Trucco who plays Anders is someone who's also gonna be back in season three and really has integrated himself in the cast in an interesting way. He's got a great scene coming up later with Kara and Lee. I think it's always interesting when you introduce a new actor into a dynamic that you're used to seeing a very certain way, it's hard for them not to stick out.
RDM: Yeah.
Eick: Here you've got Helo and Kara and Anders here and I would say he sort of seemlessly weaves in. You don't really feel it.
RDM: Yeah, and I like it when he gets back to Galactica. We'll talk about that later but I think this is the episode I like the Anders- Anders the best. I think I really grew to really like the character and the actor in this episode most of all.
RDM: Cylon-occupied Vancouver.
Eick: Yes, it's certainly a city and series of locations that we've shot the hell out of.
RDM: Oh my gosh.
Eick: This is of course Caprica. It's also Kobol. It's also going to be New Caprica, which you'll see at the end of the episode. And coming up with different ways to shoot it and different ways to dress it and different angles on it has become a big job for our director of photography, Stephen McNutt, whose- y'know, God the poor guy's got- (Laughs)
RDM: Oh my God, I know. We just beat up Steve all the time.
Eick: Well y'know, we try to say things like "Well, y'know, Caprica's kind of burnt orange because of the post-nuclear fallout and Kobol is really lush and green. Isn't that enough?" (Laughs)
RDM: Yup. This little B here is a little problematic, I always found. This didn't quite read the way- I think this is a script issue, but the idea was a lot of people come out of their little fortified position and one of them turns out to be Brother Cavil. Doesn't quite- there's a problem as they all turn around and look up at him they look a little bit more surprised than they probably should.
Eick: Yeah as if he's a sudden...
RDM: As if he's a sudden appearance and that wasn't the concept. But you're sort of over and past it in enough time to sort of get the idea.
Act 1[edit]
RDM: This is a great little scene. This is one of my favorite Laura scenes.
Eick: I for- this was such a good scene.
RDM: It's such a good scene.
Eick: I forgot that it was in the script
RDM: I know. I did too.
Eick: I remember sitting there watching, going "What the hell is this?".
RDM: I wrote it and I was sort of like "Well, it's an ok little scene and y'know he- she tries to convince him and talk it out." It was kind of forgettable and then I saw it and I was like "Wow!"
Eick: It's like an homage to All the President's Men. It's the first thing I thought when I saw it... the Hal Holbrook stuff in the garage, y'know.
RDM: It's really interesting. Yeah. The way he chose to stage this, putting her in shadow, her sitting down.
Eick: In the script did it say all the lights are off?
RDM: I don't think so. I don't think it did at all.
Eick: That's what threw me off.
RDM: I think he just walked in- I think in the script he just walked in and he didn't see anybody at first and she kinda just stepped out of the bathroom or something.
Eick: But it's another scene- I mean this is- we're right now putting the show up for various awards and they want to know what our selects are. And Ron and I were talking about "Well what- you know we definitely want to push Mary McDonnell for Best Actress, so which episode do you choose?" And first blush you say "Epiphanies" which was an early episode in season two because it was like the Laura episode and "What was Laura doing before the attack?" and all this kind of stuff. Honestly we looked at this- this is her strongest work of the year. It really is.
RDM: Yeah, this is a good good episode for Mary. And there's a beat here- (background noise of what sounds like a toilet flushing) That would be the bathroom. (RDM & Eick laugh) We're in my office today by the way. There's no garbage trucks, but there is a bathroom.
Eick: There is, however, scotch.
RDM: There is scotch and I'm about to completely break the law and smoke in here. Come and get me, Arnold!
(Eick laughs)
RDM: When he- when she says "The-" uh, we have the sound turned down so it's always- it's hard to- oh no, we were past it. There was a beat there where she says "I think settlement on the planet is the most important thing to face humanity" and Baltar just sits back and stares at her for a long time and then he finally says "Ok, you're right."
Eick: Yeah! (Laughs)
RDM: There's something so great about that like you don't know what he's gonna do. And then he kind of has to concede the point even as Baltar, he has to sort of "Yeah, ok you're right." (Lights cigarette)
Eick: Well, I wish it was Super Bowl Sunday, I could have one of those with ya.
RDM: It's the season finale, doesn't that count?
Eick: No.
RDM: You can do one on the Super Bowl and one on the season- Dave is an ex-smoker. I'm a recent smoker.
Eick: I'm an ex-smoker, I get one a year. Ron's a re-smoker, we call him.
RDM: I'm a re- recent smoker. I've only been smoking for a couple years. There's been endless discussion on the podcast, by the way, of me smoking. Terry was a guest star last week.
Eick: Was she?
RDM: And she was busting my chops about smoking because I've got into this habit of watching the show and podcasting and chainsmoking through it. It's now literally the place I smoke the most. I now smoke more during the podcast than-
Eick: So were it not for these podcasts, you might have made it to 50.
RDM: That's right!
Eick: Oh well, anything for the show.
RDM: Anything for my fans.
Eick: (Laughing sarcastically) "My fans."
RDM: My people. My- my- my peeps.
RDM: And we talked a lot about whether this moment should happen or not... Whether Laura should-
Eick: Well it was out in the first cut.
RDM: It was out in the first cut. When she calls him on the y'know, "I saw you with a blonde woman on Caprica."
Eick: But isn't it interesting though, and Rym- I'm gonna bust Rymer's balls on this, he always cuts the stuff that's like the best stuff he does.
RDM: Yeah.
Eick: Like that transition right there where Six is suddenly there...
RDM: I know. It's a great transition.
Eick: It gives me chills every time I watch it. It's really effective. And he did that- and now I have to admit, even though I think a lot of it was about execution, I- there were a variety of different versions in the previous episode of Mary cracking up laughing- she cracks up laughing.
RDM: Yeah, that's right.
Eick: And there were versions of it that I hated because there were so- I just thought they were awkwardly done. And Ron and I were in the editing room and literally the editor sped by some piece that had been omitted and it was perfect! It was like exactly the moment that made it work. I don't know, I think- you know what it is? We're giving him too much time in the editing room. You gotta kick him out.
RDM: You gotta kick him out.
Eick: He's overthinking. He's cutting out his best stuff.
RDM: He gets there and he starts to worry that it's not working. He shoots amazing stuff though. This scene was gonna be gone too. I mean all this- all the texture of the show was going to have to be gone if we had to actually made this an hour. I like this little thing with Ellen and Tigh and the deal that they make in their marriage, because there was something important to me about saying that they- really it's a completely screwed up, dysfunctional marriage but it works for them. And they come to this place where Ellen says "How long?" and he says, "A year." Ok, whatever, a year! And she actually stands by him. Ironically, fine at the other side of the job.
Eick: But you know, we cut the year.
RDM: Oh we cut the year?
Eick: Yeah. (Laughs)
RDM: Oh, well ignore me then. I got a rewrite project. I'll rewrite episode one, like, right now!
Eick: That was one of my moves to get us the time, buddy.
RDM: That's what you're doing on the dub side?
Eick: There's no more- There's no more reference to one year.
RDM: Oh yeah. "Shortly later..." "A little while afterwards..."
Eick: No, what's great about that scene though- is that he- was that the scene where he says "Go on, cat a round."
RDM: Yeah, "Go cat around."
Eick: I love that because you're suddenly aware of the fact that Tigh knows.
RDM: He knows! He knows!
Eick: And it's great because you realize that they've got this unholy alliance where they sort of understand each other.
RDM: He knows who he's married to! He knows. This is a great little beat too. I like this. I wrote this in the script that this is Kara having to introduce the new boyfriend to her father.
Eick: Yeah, I love that too.
RDM: And I like the fact that he says "I'm more of a Picon Panthers fan, myself." (Laughs) He couldn't resist!
Eick: Yeah, I know. I don't know if you agree with this... This is one of those scenes that came out exactly the way I imagined it when I read it.
RDM: Yeah, actually, me too. I did.
Eick: Her awkwardness about having to introduce him to Adama.
RDM: Even camera-side... like she's on the left, he's on the right, is the way I pictured it in my mind. That's one of those things that I almost always get wrong.
Eick: Yeah, it never works out the way you imagine.
Eick: This is um- Yeah, code blue.
RDM: Code blue.
Eick: Isn't that a colloquialism of our- I mean-
RDM: It's something from a hospital. You hear them yell "code blue" a lot.
Eick: Code blue, I guess-
RDM: This is one of those technical terms, I was just like "OK, and he would yell- wouldn't there be something if you saw a Cylon and you knew it you would just scream-"
Eick: What is code red then? Is code-
RDM: I avoided red just 'cause of the Star Trek reference to it so-
Eick: Oh, 'cause people in red shirts die or something?
RDM: No, red alert is like the thing.
Eick: Oh is that what they say on Star Trek?
RDM: (In cartoonish voice) Alert! (Makes alarm noises) Red alert!
Eick: I see.
RDM: David's never seen Star Trek.
Eick: I've never actually- I heard it's a good show.
RDM: Some of you should actually send David the DVD sets of the entire Star Trek series.
Eick: (Laughs) Well, who knows, I might start ripping that off too.
Eick: The other performance in this episode that I really love is Grace Park.
RDM: Oh I know. She's really good.
Eick: She's got the hardest job- she and Tricia Helfer I think have got the hardest jobs on this show because they've got to play, not multiple characters 'cause actors have done that and you can sort of make certain choices and go in certain extreme directions and pull that off.