Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

Religeous Variance

Specifically, in the bit about funerals... It sounds a bit harsh to say that priests do the funerals regardless of the beliefs of the deceased. It makes it sound like they're Muslims getting Catholic funerals. I couldn't tell you the difference between a Methodist funeral and a Protestant funeral if my life depended on it. I think that this (apparently) unilateral handling of funerals is more indicative of the (mostly) unified religeon of the Colonies, rather than a callous behavior of some kind of oppressive theocracy. The only people who seem like they have a truely different religeous idea are Tigh, Adama and Billy, and they don't seem to strongly anti-religeon that they'd roll over at their religeous funeral. I didn't make an edit to reflect this, though, because this is rather subjective. --Day 04:23, 10 September 2005 (EDT) (Post Script: I'm working on getting that picture. My Mac's having some technical issues.)

Unknowns

Rules applying to the priesthood may or may not be the same throughout the Twelve Colonies. It is possible that certain schools of the priesthood practice celibacy, but Chief Tyrol stated that his father was a priest and his mother an oracle, so it would not be adhered to by all denominations of the religion of the Twelve Colonies.

This may vary considerably from one Colony to the next: Gemenons believe in the literal truth of the Sacred Scrolls and are quite fundamentalist, while Capricans seem fairly secular in their treatment of Church-State relations.

I really don't see the point in noting may-or-may-nots and it-is-not-knowns. The idea here is to state everything we do know - everything we don't state is logically unknown. I'm not opposed to informed speculation, but simply listing the areas we haven't heard about seems fruitless.

The Chicken And Egg Origin of the Greek/Kobol Gods

Since the 13th Tribe populated Earth, all the while bringing their religion from Kobol, this suggests that the Greek gods are the offshoots to the Kobol gods, not the reverse. This fits with the other Olympian gods not (yet) mentioned in the Kobol religion, but present in the Olympian religion.

This suggestion creates several interesting possibilities for thought.

• There wasn't a human population already on Earth with its own religion. The religion of Kobol grew to form the Olympian gods.
• There was an existing human population, and the Colonial humans and native terrans merged genes and religion, which might have included other beings we know as the Olympian and quasi-Olympian gods.
• The Tribe somehow lost their technological base of information and went into a new dark age similar to what the Tribes experienced before, increasing their need for divine aid (and expansion of the Kobol religion to form the Olympian components). This also kept the 13th Tribe from returning to know the fate of their brothers in the other Tribes.
• The 13th Tribe landed in the Mediterreanean area of Earth (presuming their Earth is "our" Earth), in what we historically have called the "seat of human civilization."

The hologram in the Tomb of Athena suggests that the constellations and celestial bodies of Earth were either known already to the Kobol tribes and were programmed into the Tomb before they left, or a 13th Tribe member from Earth returned to do this. If neither are true, then there is real problem with how the Tomb received this information, and the need or ability for the Arrow of Apollo to be available (and noted in the Sacred Scrolls) as capable of showing the way to a place the Tribes had not yet visited (unless you count in the "all this has happened and will happen again" part of the Scrolls).

I edited the article with the point in mind as it seemed too strong to suggest otherwise. Thoughts on this or points against the notion? (This also keeps us from blowing brain cells on who created what.) Spencerian 16:34, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

See the "Three Exodus" portion of Sacred Scrolls for something that explains this. It was written by me, so perhaps I'm biased towards it being true, but if it is, then the pictures inside the Tomb of Athena do fall under the "All this has happened before..." clause. As does the dissemination of the Gods. However, I agree that it's probable that the 13th Tribe brought the Lords of Kobol with them to Earth. It's just that, after that, they also brought them back to Kobol so that they would be there to be brough to Earth again in the next cycle. I hope that's coherent. It's hard talking in circles like this. --Day 18:07, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

I don't think its necessary or interesting to note that in this much detail - the History article covers the origin of the twelve colonies in substantially more detail. To that end, I'd prefer to revert your comments, if you're not terribly attatched. --Peter Farago 18:10, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

Actually it's not that bad. I'm going to clarify it slightly, but it would probably be useful to keep it. --Peter Farago 18:16, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

Actually I would say that Humans where born on earth and went to Kobold as said above, not that Kobold brought the gods to earth, life here began out there those are the first words of the ancient scrolls and they where told to us by the lords of Kobold countless centuries ago The big one there is life here lets look at that, they are bluntly stating in a way that life on kobold is not native it began out in space, the ties to earth mythology, technology, referances etc can only be explained so many ways.

Take adama's ship (the model) it's a classic schoonar, now you can call 'paralell development' but only to an extent we know that the colonies had space technology when they where founded which leads us to believe that the schoonar is older then that the design anyway, we also know apparently from flash backs etc that Kobold was fairly advanced heck we know they had holographic technology... Which in turn points to the fact that maybe they where not native to Kobold either.

I'd prefure to look at it something like this, at some stage we the good old 13th colony reached a point where we had FTL technology and in turn we expanded we spread out and colonised the stars, Kobold was one of those maybe at the time we had advanced enough through gene manipulation or the such that the 13 Lords of Kobold where immortals or at least enhanced humans while the 'normals' who lived in peace with the lords where from a Genetic databank (or perhaps we moved there in an ark to escape some cataclism on earth) over time the origins of were they came from began to fade until the exodus from kobold. Which began the whole cycle again.. (in turn this would show the All this has happened before and all this will happen again part).

Even still there are disrepancy's within the shows own words.. the 13th Colony left kobold in the early days and settled on a planet around a distant and unknown star.... that has been proven to be a false statement, it was not unknown, the Koboldians KNEW about it, apparently even the scriptures themselves know that from Earth you can look up at the stars and see the 12 other colonies, the Zodiac.. When you take these facts into account the belief that Kobold is the original planet is impossible, because the Only way you can get the exact star alignments for those Zodiac's is within a set distance (5 or so Light years presuming None of the stars within 5 light years make up the Zodic pieces) of Earth.. No Life began on earth and went to kobold it's the only way one can explain so much of what is Canon of the show now. RobGraham21:03 Thursday 29th June Australian EST.

A note: It's "Kobol". The one is a planet, the other is a small dogish creature from D&D (if I remember right). Anyway, I think you're getting tied up in a linear idea of time. You have to keep in mind there that is no true point of genesis. You can pick any point in the cycle and get back to it. So, take "humans on Earth" as your starting point:

Something makes them leave Earth and move to Kobol. They forget Earth. The Big Bad Thing happens and they flee to the 13 colonies (the Twelves Colonies and Earth). They forget Kobol and Earth. Another Big Bad Thing (Cylons) happens and they flee the Twelve to go find the Thirteenth. Presumably, they settle. They forget Kobol and the Twelve Colonies. Something makes them leave Earth and move to Kobol. They forget Earth. Repeat, repeat.

That's my "Three Exodi" interpretation, anyway. And, in it, from the point of view of the Kobolites, life did begin "out there" on Earth. That's where they all came from, most recently. I hope that helps explain how everything has already come before. Sure the origin of the zodiacs necessarily comes from Earth. That's incorperated into the theory. --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 14:55, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

Zephyr

About where in the episode is this mentioned? Is it explicitly stated that the Zephyr is named after a God, or is it just mentioned? It is my understanding that a zephyr is a gust of wind and, thus, not an imp[robable name for a ship with that meaning. Unless it's explicit, I think this point is ambiguous at best. --Day 18:11, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

No, he's right. See Zephyrus. Very nice catch, Spence. --Peter Farago 18:14, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

Woah! Zephyrus lived in a cave on Thrace? That can't be accidental. It hadn't occured to me until I saw it, but I knew this. I played a pice a few years ago called the March of the Young Thracians or something. Anyway, I'm not sure about Zephyr, still. He wasn't one of the "main" Greek Gods, as it were, so I don't think we can make an assumption that he's a Lord of Kobol. They may have lesser gods like the Greeks did that just have never been mentioned, or it might be that some effects dude at Zoic named the ship that because it makes a good name for a ship, not realizing that it's also an allusion to a Greek god. --Day 18:22, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

A link to Kara Thrace's article already noted this, which is where I felt the Zephyr note was credible. Kara's name (as in a human aided by the "winds") and the link to Zephyrus couldn't be a coincidence--RDM had that one down. Spencerian 09:55, 4 October 2005 (EDT)

Right, but he is a god, the Colonials apparently know about him, and we don't have any knowlege on whether the colonials separate the Lords of Kobol from minor deities - so it's probably important to note, and there isn't really a better place for it. (FWIW, they did apparently distinguish between upper and lower demons). --Peter Farago 18:29, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

Liturgy

Does anyone know what language Elosha's funeral prayer is in at the end of the Mini-series? --Peter Farago 18:30, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

You may already know this answer by now (though others may not), but she is singing in sanskrit from text used in the Hindu faith. A good fan site about the end title song to "The Matrix Revolutions", called "Navras", shows the Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 1.3.28 exactly as Elosha sung it and as used in that Matrix end title by composer Don Davis and the artist known as Juno Reactor.

asato ma sad gamaya

tamaso ma jyotir gamaya

mrtyor mamrtam gamaya

In English:

From delusion lead me to truth

From darkness lead me to light

From death lead me to immortality

I've watched the Mini-Series countless times now, and used the "Navras" music as some of my workout music. I knew about the sanskit origin, but Eiosha's song was familiar to me and I didn't know why until someone here pointed out that it was a source I already knew. Damn fine soundtracks for both the Mini-Series and "The Matrix" movies, by the way. --Spencerian 23:50, 13 December 2005 (EST)

I actually prefer In My Head, Tetsujin, and You All, Everybody. --Ricimer 00:53, 14 December 2005 (EST)

I don't recognize the last one, but yes, the first two are also great tracks. I always visualize Trinity kicking butt and taking names when those two tracks are on. --Spencerian 10:01, 14 December 2005 (EST)

Oh come on, surely you must know it: "You all, You all everybody/Acting like such stupid people/wearing expensive clothes/You all, you all, You all, everybody..."--Ricimer 12:38, 14 December 2005 (EST)

Yes, I incorporated that into the Language in the Twelve Colonies article. That seems to me to be the more appropriate place. --Peter Farago 04:12, 14 December 2005 (EST)

Priesthood

Spencerian added:

Like denominations on Earth, it is possible that there are varying kinds of priests and customs that share elements of worship of the Lords of Kobol, with some subtle or significant differences. It is probable that, based on their devotion, a Genemon priest (in comparison to one, say, on Caprica) may have a more defined worship or celebration process, or may speak or pay more respects to one or a handful of Lords in preference over others, as Kara Thrace devoted prayer to her specific Lords. The contrast would be akin to the Catholic, Episopal, and Lutheran churches of real-world Earth.

As my fellow contributors know, I frown on plausible but baseless speculation. I don't think this is useful here. --Peter Farago 20:48, 1 November 2005 (EST)

Removing. --Peter Farago 03:08, 3 November 2005 (EST)

Zoic

Where and in what capacity did Zoic "release" those names? --Peter Farago 14:28, 8 December 2005 (EST)

You know this "reference" as well as I, and I would as well like to see the press release or web site reference where Zoic gave us this information. I know this is circular and that the Great Delete Key of the Citation Jihad may be quivering over that item, but I did note its non-canonical nature, but at the same time, considering its an official production company of the show, its also hard to prove them wrong--this information might be in the mysterious series bible for all we know. Maybe Joe would know old Ernestborg9's resource. --Spencerian 15:26, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Non-canonical is one thing, but uncited and non-canonical is past my limit. I mean, we could just start making random shit up and say that Zoic said it, and really, nobody would be there to catch us. We have to police ourselves on this. --Peter Farago 15:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

If this is the case, we need to delete ALL the battlestar pages or rework them to remove those old Zoic references. I'm OK on this, but we have a lot of work to do. The Zoic thing here has been like the "weird uncle" in the family that you don't talk about or leave the daughters with, but let come to family gatherings anyway. Probably time to purge all references to Zoic's battlestars, maybe moving them to the Zoic page, and deleting the rest. --Spencerian 16:15, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Well, the best thing to do would be to find the source of the quote, but I haven't had any luck. --Peter Farago 16:22, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Atlantia

How should we handle this reference? The Atlantia and Pacifica were presumably named after the Atlantic and Pacific oceans (in real life). The Atlantic ocean is named for Atlas, not Atlantia, but that's not necessarily implied by anything on-screen (and if it were really named after the ocean, it would probably be Atlantica.) --Peter Farago 15:00, 8 December 2005 (EST)

I'd stick to what we know, until we find something better. Atlas was a founder of Atlantis, so we can add this contradicting resource since Pegasus also has differing sources of origin. Greek myth is always full of contradictions anyway. Given that there's no Atlantic Ocean in the Colonies as far as we know, and the Lords tend to be Olympian, not Titan, gods, I'd go for the dryad origin. --Spencerian 15:26, 8 December 2005 (EST)

The Jealous God

Ricimer said: Although it is tantalizing to claim that the Cylon God is the rebelious Lord of Kobol, I don't think #6 has ever claimed that they're the same one.

When Six says to Baltar, "Blasphemous, stupid lies. There have never been any other gods, only the One," it seems to me that she's referring to the one Elosha was just speaking about. You may be right that the inference is too tenuous for the article, though. --Peter Farago 18:56, 12 December 2005 (EST)

I love this idea as well, very tantalyzing indeed, but perhaps it belongs in an analysis section to be added to the deleted scenes article. --Mason 23:21, 12 December 2005 (EST)

You see although I'd like to equate the two, I don't think we can yet; it's more for an "Analysis" section. It seems to me that Number Six in that scene was talking about ALL of the Gods that Elosha was talking about, the Jealous God AND the other 11 collectively. It's not clear enough of a statement. I'm kind of secretly hoping that the cylons were taught the advanced technology needed to make humanoid Cylons from the Count Iblis equivalent of this series, which turns out to be the jealous Lord of Kobol; however, as Ron D. Moore has pointed out, that would kind of "gut" the religion of the Cylons: the Cylons are sentient beings in their own right, and all sentient beings have a claim to a soul and a concept of god once they're intelligent enough to grasp such concepts, and turning around and saying "well the whole idea of Cylons having a religion and thinking they have their own souls? Turns out they got duped by a god-like alien, which, although very powerful, ain't really a god, just more like Q from Star Trek or something", saying that would somehow seem to unfairly lessen the Cylons in my opinion. Maybe they can work the two concepts together tactfully (Cylons developed a concept of God BEFORE meeting Count Iblis, and Iblis is claiming to be the "real Cylon god"? , etc.). I don't know. But we don't have a lot to go on. --Ricimer 01:43, 13 December 2005 (EST)

I agree with almost everything you've written, and although I like to speculate that ideas, like Iblis, will be tied back into RDM's Cylon religion, I appreciate that this speculation can only exist in a limited form on the wiki. I don't entirely agree with you on the idea that the Cylons religious credibility would be compromised by a manifested God, for this cyclical pattern working itself out in the show reminds me very much of Isaac Asimov's The Last Question, which was satisfying in its vast simplicity.

I like to add a little bit, not to sound pompous but there can be some connection from the Cylon god and the Jealous god. The Jealous God started the war because he wanted to be placed above the other ones, starting the so called "War of the Gods." So he is thrown out and loses, so he wanders around and finds the Cylons. Maybe he inspires them to rebel and they do. He sets himself up as their god, and it is concurrent with what the Cylons think of the Colonial Gods; i.e. the other gods are fake, their one god is the true god. The Jealous God wishes to be placed above the others, and ends up finding a lost race, the Cylons and takes them as his own.

I mean, he may have set himself up as this seemingly beneficial, but ultimately devious figure. It may possibly be a correlation to Count Iblis. --Volostheguardian 14:09, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

RDM said there wouldn't be a Count Iblis on the Re-Imagined Series, and that the Cylons aren't "well we're Machines that got fooled into thinking we had souls by a higher being"; the Cylons have as much claim to their religion being "real" as the humans do. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 15:06, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

Could we be looking at this from the wrong angle? We assume the cylons religion is fake or that it's just as equally fake or real as the Colonials polytheistic faith. Could the humans from Kobol be the ones who were decieved and the cylons religion is the one that is "real"? Could the Lords of Kobol be the Count Iblis alien/demigod type characters while the cylons have actually been talking to "God"? Theoretically if there was one God and the humans turned away from his teachings and chose to adopt the kobolian faith instead I figure God would be displeased.

Basically what I'm saying is the Cylon God was originally the god of the primitive humans but then the lords of Kobol came along and they became worshipped as Gods. "God" was angered that the humans worshipped false idols. Once the cylons came along "God" saw a way to preserve its design now that the humans had abandoned the faith. "God" revealed itself to the cylons and through them sought to destroy the humans for abandoning the faith.

Everything the humans are going through is because they worshipped false idols. The Six in Baltar's head has been right all along. She's an angel (or whatever) from "God". --Meteor 18:13, 18 January 2007.

Religious Issue

the Lords of Kobol are a part of a fictional story. the Greek Olympians are worshipped both by people in ancient times and by living people. the religion is not "shared", rather the Lords are based upon the real-world religion. i realize that this may seem a minor issue to some of you, but it is a significant semantic assumption to make that the Lords are the same as the Olympians. Whateley23 01:46, 16 January 2006 (EST)

Indeed, it does seem like a minor issue. There is nothing wrong with the current phrasing in my opinion, and I will not change it. --Peter Farago 02:09, 16 January 2006 (EST)

I think that the assumption is not that both are fictional, but that the story will tell us they are of the same origin (also implying that the story is not fictional, though it clearly is). Within the fictional universe of Ronald D. Moorse's Battlestar Galactica, The Lords of Kobol and the Greek Olympians are/were the same thing. We also state that Vipers can do such and such and that Galactica has certain armaments, but we don't make any caveats about the fact that the nukes in the show are actually fictional nukes for fear of offending nuclear scientists currently working on related technologies. Everything except the articles on actors and other clearly-real things, should be taken as if it were prefaced by the italics above: We know the show's not real, so don't let our comments about it reflect on reality. --Day 15:08, 16 January 2006 (EST)

Religious Parallels

Should we maybe move the parallels between Colonial religion and real world faiths to an independent article? We don't really have a systematic way to present Colonial religion and the parallels exacerbate this problems by further broadening the articles only makes this article harder to understand.--Spidersense215 14:06, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

Which ones? --Peter Farago 14:17, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

Lords of Kobol

Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --PrePressChris 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+

The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --Spencerian 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.

Where is the list of names you mentioned? --PrePressChris 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --Spencerian 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --PrePressChris 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --Ublej 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)

The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --Serenity 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

More Cowbell

Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --Steelviper 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)

Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --Steelviper 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

• The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

• This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --Spencerian 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:

That the main voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

Case in point my new Mythological references page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --Serenity 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)