Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

This article is actively undergoing a major edit for a short while. As a courtesy, please do not edit this article while this message is displayed. The person who added this notice is Shane.

Note: Individual discussions which we believe have reached consensus have been archived.

• Archive 1 (September 10th, 2005 to November 31st, 2005):

Verb Tense, Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards, Signing Your Work, Spelling, Single-name Address, Episode Links and Formatting, Proposed Guidelines for Dispute Resoluton on Speculative Matters, Quorum of Twelve, Namespaces

• Archive 2 (December 1st, 2005 to Present):

Disambiguation, Image Sizes, Image Credit, The Freakin' Quote-o-Matic, Links, HTML, Verb Tense 2, Ranks and Locations, Image Format, Image Control Station, Dates, Battle pages formatting, Ages, Ship gender, XHTML Compliance, Policy?, Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon", Punctuation

After Questions...now Analysis?

We seem to have agreed new standards for the Question's section. However, the Analysis section of a lot of pages is similarly riddled with discussion and dispute. Should this also be reigned in?

Yes. Now... How, Exactly? --Day 04:53, 17 March 2006 (CST)

At the risk of making it sound simpler than it is, we apply much the same standard. We go through Analysis sections and see where discussions can be boiled back down into concise points or where follow-on comments can simply be eliminated. Just as we've refocused "Questions" on "Questions the Episode Asks and Does Not Answer", we refocus "Analysis" on actually analysing the episode as a story rather than on nitpicking technobabble or speculating on unanswered questions :-)

I'm also starting to think that it may behoove us to simple create a separate "Speculations" section if we feel like we don't want to completely eliminate speculation from the site. I'm not sold on it, tho'. Just pondering.--Uncle Mikey 10:25, 17 March 2006 (CST)

I think we should shoot speculation as often as we find it, except where it is clearly marked. And I don't think we should let it become rampant. We moved all the Cylon Agent speculation stuff off of each character's page and onto a speculation page, for instance. I don't want to get into encouraging speculation on every single episode page. I like the Purge and Clense idea posed above by someone who didn't sign their post. --Day 21:29, 18 March 2006 (CST)

The unsigned post was me, and the lack of signature an oversight. Sorry :-) --Uncle Mikey 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Although I agree that Question sections need extensive concision as we saw on LDYB II, one of the strengths of BattlestarWiki is that we have Questions and probable answers based on evidence; if we remove all answers as was done on the recent revision to LDYB II, we remove one of the greatest features of BattlestarWiki. I feel that answers to questions should be kept shorter than 2 lines, but so long as they stay on one line, and we don't run into a debate back and forth of like 5 things, we should keep them. And if there is a debate it goes to Analysis. I am adamant about this. --The Merovingian 00:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

If a question has a probable answer based on evidence, then it simply isn't a question any more :-) I'm OK with the idea that we use the Question section to gather answers and possibly gain Analysis points that way, but once we have those answers, the questions should be moved or removed (or, if the answers are purely speculative, the answers purged).

I also disagree that Analysis should be used for debate. There is no section of the encyclopedic pages that should be used for debate. That's what Talk pages are for. Analysis does not mean, "This is where we nitpick the episode and each others' points to death". It should ultimately read like one person analyzing the episode. Someone suggested it should even be reformatted at some point into a narrative rather than bulleted presentation, and I agree.

It's not that I don't agree that one of the strengths of this sort of site is bringing fans together to talk out and even occasionally to nitpick. It's just that I think that's what Talk pages are for, not encyclopedic pages. --Uncle Mikey 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

No. The point is that we aren't bringing up "speculation" but that we are pointing out facts, back and forth. For example, "Was Cain lying to Starbuck about wanting to take back the Colonies?" could be followed by "Cain has been seen to be manipulative" followed by "Cain also honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons", etc. Yes, there are "Questions" and it remains a questions even if we offer insight into it. No, we should not move the questions once these points have been raised. Analsis is not officially "debate" but it is what it's name implies; "Analaysis" i.e. counterpoints and so forth, based on Fact; that is, not just listing our opinions, but weighing the facts against each other. Either way, the rules are loose when it comes to Analysis. No, it should not be moved into a narrative format; that's more confusing than a point by point bulleted list. No, this is not what Talk pages are for. Talk pages are just for discussion about what should go on the front, but let me reiterate; Remove this feature of the questions and you would GUT the best feature of BattlestarWiki. ------>I want the section on the front of this article of Standards and Questions describing how we handle Questions to be revised.--The Merovingian 13:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)

I think, Merv, that you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what the best feature of this Wiki is. And it's odd, because from what I've seen so far, you're actually a provider of what I think the best feature actually is: solid, detailed, well-researched and defensible information about the series, its stories, and its characters. The example you offer is a good one, but the moment good insight is provided for the question like that, I feel it could be moved to Analysis. Or, in this specific example, edited together to remain an unanswered question, but without the sense that people are "discussing" something, which has no place on encyclopedic pages: "On the one hand, Cain can be manipulative. On the other hand, Cain honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons. So: was Cain lying about wanting to take back the Colonies?" When all is said and done, if the Wiki is dedicated to Neutral Point of View, then encyclopedic pages need not to sound like they're arguing with themselves.--Uncle Mikey 22:41, 20 March 2006 (CST)

In case there is any confusion about what I am saying we need it's; "Let's just keep doing what we've BEEN doing, and when a Question section like LDYB II's gets a little messy, clean it up as the situation requires.--The Merovingian 13:23, 19 March 2006 (CST)

It seems like these sections (in both Espisode and Character guides) are getting very large and when someone is trying to save even a minor edit we will get an Overflow error. You might have seen it before. http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.#Error_Message It might be better to place both of these sections of new pages. (i.e. LBYB, II, Question/Analysis). --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 19:16, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Before I resume my attack on the "Questions" section, I would appreciate it if other frequent editors and admins could chime in explicitly on whether we still like the guidelines I posted to the Standards and Conventions page, as discussed on LYOB II's talk page, or whether more people feel Merv is right and we shouldn't be quite so strict as I've proposed (and executed on LYOB I and II)... I would prefer not to take silence for assent only to have a bunch of stuff reverted later because it was widely thought I was too quick with my knife :-) --Uncle Mikey 14:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)

I guess part of if really depends on if it is just "Questions" or if it is "Unanswered Questions". I don't mind the occassional answer, but it's the ones three deep with conflicting/argumentative answers (The Captain's Hand#Questions) that bug me. But I guess just shifting them down to analysis doesn't really change anything. I'm torn. --Steelviper 14:44, 22 March 2006 (CST)

I haven't commented much because I agree with practically everything you've said on this subject. It's been bothering me for some time, but I haven't had the energy to tackle the issue. I congratulate you for having the fortitude to take this on — you have my unconditional support on this one. --Peter Farago 16:40, 22 March 2006 (CST)

Disambiguation Location

We should note that Disambiguation for pages that have more than one meaning should go on the top line of the page, below any "Global" template areas, such as delete, but above such Templates as "Episode Guide", "Character Data", and "Battle Template" area so the text stand out more. Otherwise it is cramped on between the left coloum and the right table and seems like part of the article, rather than Disambiguation data. It should also be tabed once and always italized. Comments? --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 19:09, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Your choice of words seems very presumptious. I would have said something like, "I like the look of one tab and italics" or "The current convention seems to be..." or whatever, rather than being so proscriptive. I agree that we probably need a standard on this. One tab and italics is fine with me. Just noting that your attitude seems very... controntational. Does anyone else think a different formatting is better? --Day ^(talk) 20:37, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Well, that formatting is what I use and prefer, at any rate. --Peter Farago 21:04, 20 March 2006 (CST)

The convention I've always used is the same convention at Wikipedia. Tab one and italicize. So say we all. -- Joe Beaudoin 08:16, 21 March 2006 (CST)

Good enough for me. If someone dissents, we can remove it, but for now, I've put this on the S&C page, as I understand it from Shane's post. By your command. --Day ^(talk) 00:48, 29 March 2006 (CST)

Cast pages Overview section

Most of the cast articles have a section titled "Overview" instead of just using the first paragraph as the overview like normal wiki articles. I want to change them all. Any objections?--Bp 22:24, 21 March 2006 (CST)

Plah. I just noticed all the articles are this way, even episodes. Withdrawn. --Bp 00:36, 22 March 2006 (CST)

Template Font Size and Design

I don't like the size of the font in most of the templates. That's my option of course. So I wanted to bring it up. This template of the Ship Data is a good example of the size of the text that I think is better than the bold, large text. Also we should always wikicode the templates. I put up a number of examples on how they are created. Also for the top of these type of templates we should maybe have the red bar along. Here is a link of an old verion and then there the version that is active right now which is this. The Small text keeps everything balanced with the artcile font.

Template that would be effected would be:

• Episode_Data
• Ship_Data
• Star_Data (Being Renamed)
• Character_Data
• Book_Data

Just a thought... :) --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:24, 22 March 2006 (CST)

Succession Boxes

Anything with only one person in a box, like "Laura Roslin" as the only entry in a succession box for Secretary of Education, is redundant and excessive; it's not necessary, clutters up the page, and it simply makes little sense to do so. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 00:25, 26 March 2006 (CST)

I mistakenly posted this on the front page first (oops); this is my proposed addition:

"Succession boxes, such as those for holders of a political office or a command position aboard a ship, should not be created unless at least two separate articles can be linked to using such a box". --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 00:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)

If a goverment is supposed to be able to be listed in any part of someone's bio (i.e. We could do Billy and Toni as People who were aides to President Roslen and then Felix Gata to Giaus Baltar) on Succession boxes, including Vice-President, or Assitants to the President of the Colonies, or CAG, XO, or CO, or anything that has an order, it should be included. A great example is Lee Adama's page, and I didn't even add the other ones; An Admin did. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:31, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Some of these simply do not make sense, however: why make Gaeta have a box that says "assistant to President Baltar" when he's the only one? The entire concept of adding in extra link boxes is to keep the navigation more easy to use, but this has been taken to the point that it's just cluttering things up without adding anything truly useful or necessary; I mean the links to Baltar are already in there, or in his character box as a former position. It is impractical and unwieldy. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 00:35, 26 March 2006 (CST)

People love timelines and orders. To get the quick skimmy of things, people look at these. They have been used all over Poiltical pages sorting out who has had what. So maybe we should delete the ones that have just One person attached to it? There is no harm in it being there no more than the "Job" section in the Character template. Guess what? If I were a normal person, I like the boxes, because it answers an interesting question, has there been any secertary's in goverment thus far other than the President's spot. Maybe one of these days we will see a show where there is a meeting with all the members. She even talks about it in Minisersi where she knew all 52 before here. (was it 52? can't remember.) Someone had to be before her and before Adars Administration. My edit was also there and admins been on the site before you came along an removed it. It seemed they had no problem with it being there. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:41, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Not having it answers the question even quicker. --CalculatinAvatar 02:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)

I'm with Merv on this one. Having looked at some code for various templates, I see that there's a trick that can be used for hiding sections that don't actually have any data. That should be used here.--Uncle Mikey 08:01, 26 March 2006 (CST)

That's is incredibly cool UncleMikey; I didn't know the wikicode could let us do that. Reall cool; I agree with Uncle Mikey's idea. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 19:44, 26 March 2006 (CST)

I'm still not entirely sure how it works. It appears to actually be a CSS trick rather than a true WikiCode trick. Take a look at the CharacterData template, tho', and then experiment with it in a sandbox or on your own userpage (as I did in mine). Leave stuff out of the template-invocation...the line is completely omitted. Very slick.--Uncle Mikey 19:49, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Copied from Talk:Laura Roslin:

I'd say it's okay to have an unfilled succession box where it helps to illustrate the career of a particular character - that is, if they have completed succession boxes, they could also have unfilled ones as appropriate (thus, for example, we can see Baltar's progression from Caprican delegate to VP to President without needing to know who preceded or succeeded him as the Caprican delegate). --Peter Farago 09:42, 26 March 2006 (CST)

But Peter that is redundant with the "roles" section of the template at the top of the article. I think we should not do it. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 19:45, 26 March 2006 (CST)

No more redundant than succession boxes for the presidency. -- Joe Beaudoin 19:53, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Not so. The succession boxes allow a visitor to see who has been president, or who has been commanding a ship, in succession. This is not always covered in one article about a character-->boxes about what a character has done over time, well that's just in the article itself, and it is in their "role" subheader anyway. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 20:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)

So you would say the one Succession box under Gauis Baltar should not be there? How come you have not deleted that one. You can not be picky. It's either ALL or NONE. You can't just change it because I added it. You been doing it to them all over the place this evening, without consulting anyone before you did it. I like to remind you that this is a community Wiki, and not yours and not mine. But everyone's. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 20:29, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Although I can abide by Gaius Baltar having a succession box without anyone on his left or right, it seems a little ridiculous to add them to all the other delegates who haven't gone on to serve in other capacities. --Peter Farago 21:07, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Gaius's has been their longer. I have to look to see when, but my addistoin caught the eye of merv and he edited it right out. As far as the others, if we see another meeting of the 12, and they have changed at least they are there to start off with. The only one I didn't add was the one where no one understands which delgete he belongs to. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 21:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Peter you and I have had our differences before and this I regret; I hope that in the end, they were actually constructive. But what Shane has been doing is in direct violation of Wikiettiquette: "this is a community wiki, and not youra and not mine..."-->"so do exactly what *I* want to do!" is what you are saying? This is irrational; Shane we are DEBATING whether to do this, and you went ahead and added more of these things to the Quorum of Twelve Delegates? "Why didn't you remove the box from Baltar then, Merv?--->Because after I made the change to Kat as a TEST, I moved the discussion HERE, to Standards and Conventions! I FROZE what I was doing after it was *brought up as an issue*---->You have not listened when cautioned by myself or Peter to pause your editing when it comes into debate; you've gone ahead and edited dozens of pages, and then complained that I was directly attacking you, simply because I question the veracity of this? And intermixed with this you've been dropping...regretable threats, actual threats onto this wiki, while I try to debate our policy using the civil rules which we have established. Peter, should Shane keep doing this? I will defer to your decisions, as I do not desire a revert war....but there are limited to how far things have gone Peter, you know that. I am going to revert Shane's edits to the Quorum members to bring them back to EXACTLY what they were before this debate began; change them when this debate has finished, accordingly. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 21:40, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Better yet, leave that as "Peter, I implore you yourself to make these edits to restore the old versions of these articles to their pre-debate conditions, and freeze them there until it is finished". That would be better than me doing it. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 21:42, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Naturally, I will alter the articles to fit the consensus as soon as one emerges, if no one else does. However, I will not protect the pages under these circumstances. This is an issue which can be worked out here in a relatively prompt fashion if we all abandon ad hominem attacks and focus on the merits of one another's positions.

Your issues with Shane as a user, while certainly relevant in a broad sense, are not appropriate to discuss here. If you feel the need, you should open an RFC detailing your concerns. The community may then decide if they are well-founded and settle on an appropriate remedy if necessary. --Peter Farago 23:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)

I bear no grudge against Shane, Peter. My concern is with his actions. Yes, it would be better to handle this in a more prompt fashion which does not require freezing, you are correct. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 23:26, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Proposed Compromise

This is my preferred solution; I offer it up for consideration and comment by other concerned users.

In general, succession boxes should be avoided when neither the predecessor nor the successor to a particular position is known. An exception can be made in the case of a character who already has succession boxes with at least some information, to present a concise depiction of that character's career path.

Please comment below. --Peter Farago 23:21, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Well, I must say that I really liked mine more; as I already said above, I think the roles box already does that, bio too, etc. etc. etc. I was curious how many would prefer my original proposal instead of this compromise. However, this is not an insane compromise, and I actually think I could live with it. I'm not overly fond of it, but I like it's call for disgression. Okay, Peter, lets just see how many people go one way or the other. This is a pretty good compromise, though. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 23:29, 26 March 2006 (CST)

This is fine. I have no problem with it. -- Joe Beaudoin 11:02, 27 March 2006 (CST)

I'd be fine with this. I'd be fine with saying that a box with two "Unknown"s shouldn't be there. Either is fine with me. I am not particularly swayed by the career path reasoning, but can see the thinking. Anyway, this seems alright. And, also, this allows for decisions to be made on a case-by-case basis. For instance, it would be kind of silly to have, a ton of (effectively) empty succession boxs on someone's page simply because they had one filled box. I can't think of an example, but imagine someone who had held several jobs that no one else had held before or since (to our knowledge) and then was Galactica's CAG. No reason to have all billion boxes, but it might be useful to have one or two if they were somehow more important roles. --Day ^(talk) 00:59, 29 March 2006 (CST)

Regarding excerpts from larger articles in other pages

As Number Six#Gina or History of the Twelve Colonies#Fall of the Twelve Colonies? --CalculatinAvatar 14:02, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

These are overview pages, with a specific event having it's own page (Fall) and as for Gina, it was decided that copies that gain distinct personalities and become distinct characters get their own character page, so the Gina material got put in a separate article, but a brief description and link was left behind. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:07, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

Yes I understand that, but the links are given differently in these two places. --CalculatinAvatar 14:18, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

For clarity. One if for an event, one for characters. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:40, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

I prefer the formatting on History of the Twelve Colonies, which I borrowed from Wikipedia. --Peter Farago 21:21, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

I rather obviously agree, but I could see a reasonable person differing; I do think we should have a policy, though. --CalculatinAvatar 21:59, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

I still think so. --CalculatinAvatar 01:22, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Regarding succession box formats

Preceded by: (unknown)

Executive Officer of the battlestar Pegasus

Succeeded by: (unknown; eventually Lee Adama)

looks ugly; specifically, "(unknown; eventually Lee Adama)" It's also inconsistent with

Preceded by: (unknown, eventually Jack Fisk)

Executive Officer of the battlestar Pegasus

Succeeded by: (unknown, eventually Anastasia Dualla)

from Lee Adama and the versions of Peter Dash both before and after I changed it. I'd prefer "Unknown, eventually Foo" , "Unknown" , and "No one" all without parentheses. --CalculatinAvatar 01:22, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

For me, the italics serve the highlight the paucity of information, although I guess I'm not married to them. I don't think "unknown" should ever be capitalized, though, as it isn't a proper noun. Where would "No one" be applicable? --Peter Farago 01:28, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

I was applying initial capitalization based on its application to captions, section titles, and the like. Peter Dash is an example for "No one" , although I can live with "None" ...to the point that I have no preference between them. --CalculatinAvatar 02:15, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

I think "none" sounds better personally. I have no further objection if you want to restyle the rest of these. --Peter Farago 02:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Archives Pages

Well.. There are two ways I think this could be handled.

1. Arcives namespace (subpages needed incase their becomes two or more pages)
2. Current way for this page

Personally, I would like the namespace "Archives" so it could be searched independlty away from the talk pages. The listing of the archives though, should be done like this page. Relevent topic only should be archived.

Thoughts? --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 12:12, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

No new namespaces, please. I prefer the oldid link method for user talk pages, and archive subpages off of the "Battlestar Wiki talk" namespace for project pages. --Peter Farago 18:52, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

Having more boxes to check when running a search for some discussion would be bad. --CalculatinAvatar 22:21, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki should be...

...always in italics. If it happens to become bold, that is fine, but always italiced. Any comments --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 15:32, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

That strikes me as annoying, not particularly useful, and exceedingly hard to impose on the vast number of existing instances. --CalculatinAvatar 22:23, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

Concur. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 11:55, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

Outline rules

I've mentioned this before on this page, but it's getting really annoying now. It seems so stupid to have an "Overview" section and force the TOC above it in every article. The first paragraph should be the overview or introduction section. It doesn't need a header. For example: In Greek mythology, the "Introduction" Section should just be the first paragraph. And look at Dean Stockwell, Someone has added an "Overview" section and the used _ _TOC_ _ to force the wiki to behave badly. That article should not even have a TOC! Another example: Donner, should not have an "Overview" header, but at least they didn't add a TOC. This is most obvious in episode articles like Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I. The "Overview" section should just be the first paragraph. Is this a policy? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Can someone explain why we ignore standard wiki format, standard outline rules, and common sense?

If this is talked about somewhere else, please point me there.

--Bp 10:55, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

No, it is not a policy. Merely a style choice that was never really hammered down. Now, with articles like Donner, I don't see the point of a header (which I removed). Now, on the other hand... in regards to the episode articles... the primary format was taken from The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5, which includes the overview header. So that's where that came from. And it makes sense there, in my view. By the way, and I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but what is "standard Wiki format"? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 12:11, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

Standard wiki style is the style that MediaWiki was designed to use. It isn't a coincidence that the TOC is added after the first paragraph by default. The overview should be an immediately available brief summary or introduction in a standard place in every article: the very first line. It is more efficient for quick browseing because it doesn't require any extra clicking or scrolling, and it makes more sense. The Dean Stockwell article is a perfect example of breaking the design by forcing the TOC to the top. What also makes it standard is it's use on Wikipedia. Not trying to be a jerk, --Bp 12:24, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

Good point. :-) What has everyone else to say about it? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 12:59, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

I agree with Bp. It's a pity we haven't been more zealous about this. --Peter Farago 14:57, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

I agree: headers have been somewhat zealous. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 15:20, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

I'm not sure that word means what you think it means. --Peter Farago 17:06, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

Let me s'plain. My father was killed by a six-fingered man...---The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 17:08, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

It's been about a week now and it doesn't look like there is any objection, so what is the next step? Can I just start changing them? --Bp 18:55, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

I would be fine with your going ahead with the changes... except for the episode pages, as moving the overview above the TOC there appears quite disconcerting, in my view. (I've tried it, and I was adverse to it from an asthetic point of view, likely because of the Lurker's Guide.) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 21:46, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

"Battle" Pages Format and Guideline Proposal

Per the Fall of New Caprica talk, the "Battle" pages do require standardization, so I propose the following qualifiers for the future.

"Guidelines for creating a "Battle" page:

• Any major military confrontation in an episode should have a Battle page.
• Battle pages are generally military conflict summaries, NOT episode summaries. Use the episode articles to summarize events and conversations not related to the Battle page's focus. Likewise, avoid the use of quotes unless it has critical importance to the page. Use narrative format as a general rule.
• The content of the article should only include battle summaries, tactics, ship movements, major decisions of key political or military characters related to the welfare of the ships, their crew or the colonists.
• Battle pages are appropriate for troop-level fighting (such as the Battle of Kobol), but focus must be kept on the relevant events and less on the general mood and actions of all characters.
• Battle pages should not include real-world Earth discussions, comparisons or contrasts. If a particular tactic or technology is used that has an Earth equivalent that deserves clarification, place that information in a relevant existing or new article and add the link to the Battle page as appropriate.
• A Battle page works best with direct military conflict (whether or not fire is exchanged between combatants), but can be adjusted for certain political events that have a serious military consequence with direct conflict potential. While the "Fall of New Caprica" event is not a battle, the change of power is in effect a "win/lose" consequence that could have grave tactical ramifications.
• Each Battle page uses a summary template. If you have difficulty in defining the content of the summary template, then it is likely that the content is inappropriate for a Battle page, and should be entered in another article.

Battlestar Wiki's "Battle" articles are based on a similar design used on Wikipedia. Two useful examples to aid contributors include Wikipedia's World War II article and the Battle of the Resurrection Ship article."

Comments on this? --Spencerian 17:58, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

I originally wrote a rather long treatise on how to handle Battle pages, towards the top of our discussion here at #11. Anyone might want to read that for my previous expounding on the subject. Anyway, my guideline for what to include was based on Wikipedia, but once again I find myself looking at Memory Alpha for their articles on the Battle of Wolf 359 or Battle of Cardassia, etc.

Here is where I must disagree: battle pages should only be made for when shots are actually exchanged. I didn't think "Galactica Vs. Pegasus" should be an article, though it got voted in it was with much contention, and sort of shows the "borderline" of the most extreme case which might be in here. But "Fall of New Caprica" should be deleted or heavily altered. It wasn't a battle at all. I like SteelViper's thoughts on the subject, that "Fall of Saigon" is an "even" in wikipedia but not a battle, so we should remove battle template boxes and such from it at the very least. Still, a lot of work needs to be done on these and I'll find time in the next few days.

Nextly, --->It looks really awkward to put the entire battle article in the present tense/active voice, and we should not do that. Look at how Memory Alpha or Wikipedia writes battle pages. It sounds very awkward, and unlike a character bio or episode guide, a battle is one finite event and really should not use this. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 19:22, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

I totally agree with Spencerian. One point, though that I want to comment on, anytime an Episode shows miltary personal consipring and uses force against any target (weather that would be Galacicia v. Peaguas). That's about it. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 20:57, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Would you want to include the Galactica's boarding of Colonial One or the GIdeon then? I think that's a little excessive (although I agree with the inclusion of the fall of New Caprica, as I've stated above, and don't think that's seriously up for debate) --Peter Farago 22:27, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Really excessive, there. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 22:54, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Even I think that is "excessive". But that is not vs. a miltary target. It is civilian. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 23:29, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

I think we were confused by your use of the phrase "any target" above. --Peter Farago 00:02, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

On a side note... {{Battle Data}} is up for review. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 23:58, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

It looks good to me. --Peter Farago 03:03, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

I'm not keen on the phrase "Attacker/Defender" in there. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 06:11, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

I can understand using "attacker" and "defender" from a differentation standpoint, although it may be better to use something more generic. But how does this new template differ from the previously used template? I'm unclear why this template would be used. --Spencerian 11:17, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

Color scheme. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 11:47, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

More specifically, a central location where you could control/maintain the color sheme (and "classes" for the css) rather than having to individually update individual battle boxes each time a change needed to be made. The current pages use a "hand-made" table, rather than a template (which made sense when there weren't many battles). --Steelviper 11:59, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

Got it. --Spencerian 15:53, 13 May 2006 (CDT)

Battle Page Verb Tense

An earlier thread also appears on The Merovingian's user talk page.

If you look, Standards and Conventions for Verb Tense says that historical events are excepted: Battles are an exception, as they're not in the episode guide but written as a historical event. They have awkward flow when they're in the present tense. I like what SteelViper said a while ago: Galactica vs. Pegasus represented the 'extreme "borderline" of what constitutes such a page, but really what justifies a battle page I wrote in my treatise above at #11: shots actually have to be fired, and it has to be just more than a minor skirmish; something resulting in the loss of a viper might qualify: for example, the Skirmish over the Red Moon counts, shooting only two Raiders in "Final Cut" with no Viper loses does not, and the events of "Scar" don't count as a battle because it was low-level fighting drawn out over a month (wikipedia would never list "battle of that mission where one American pilot shot down one Japanese pilot", etc.) It kind of depends on the scale. I'm cleaning these up...--The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 19:49, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

Your interpretation is not correct, Merv. "Historical events" are flashbacks or other events that occur outside of the "start" of the aired chronological events of the show in the "present" time of the characters just before the Cylon attack. The historical range is the start of the miniseries to the end of season 2 right now. Any flashbacks of events that occur prior are indeed "historical." The flashback of Adama and Tigh's first meeting as shown in "Scattered" are historical. The events of all battles shown to date are in the "present" and are NOT historical, per the reason we use present tense in fiction and the reason for our policy. If the show were to show a battle that occurred before the series and miniseries, then that works for past tense. Many character bios also speak in past tense under the same guidelines with their flashback history. Wikipedia does what it does because it (1) has that as its policy and (2) is speaking of actual human events of the past. I don't want to even go into what Memory Alpha does (how they keep the chronological, retconned, and contradictory world of Star Trek together in a wiki is more magical than logical) except that they have their own rules. And we have ours, here, that have been discussed and established as consensus, and thus policy. Consensus does NOT expire, but can be reentertained for change at a later time--again, through consensus. You cannot change a page just because no one has talked about the idea of changing the tense. You really need to ask the group first before making such dramatic changes against the policy. --Spencerian 17:52, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

"The" Galactica

This is discussed in the front page of this policy, #5 "Ships". It says we shouldn't refer to Galactica as "the Galactica". We've usually eliminated this from new articles. However, I've been rewatching much of the series in marathon recently, and I've realized that in practially every episode someone (even Admiral Adama) refers to it as "the Galactica. ***They actually use both terms interchangeably on the show. This is really just a minor point and not drastically affecting anything, I'm just saying that in light of this we should loosen up on the restrictions on that; seeing as "Galactica" (with no definate article "the") is also correct, that means we don't have to go through every article in the entire wiki and change things. I'm just saying, in all future articles, we should be more lax about this. Because I've asked aquintances who served in the Navy and they've told me that vessels were referred to as "the Indianapolis", "The Los Angeles", etc. etc. Agree, disagree?--The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 16:25, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

They (the writers) may make the characters say anything they wish. However, since we are intended as a reference, we need to stick to one way of doing things to keep things from looking odd, at the least. Thus, no definite articles on ship names. Now, there is a convention problem on the TOS pages where we have exactly this problem, which calls for us to conventionize it--despite that almost all times the term used on the show is almost always "the Galactica. The RDM show, as with all things, will fall out of its own convention, but for our purposes of keeping things orderly, we cannot take that luxury. --Spencerian 20:22, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

Well, I really don't understand what you're trying to convey: the writers and the show itself doesn't have a convention, so we should try to establish an arbitrary convention? My big point is: you're saying that "the show might fall out of its own convention"....but I was never convinced that this was a convention. At what point did it become apparent that there was a "don't use the definative article" rule in existence? Is what I'm asking. And If BSG TOS almost always refers to it as "The"....wouldn't that mean that, purely within the realm of TOS, saying "The Galactica" is a convention? I don't understand why just "Galactica" is currently supposed to be a convention---->I mean, do modern navies say that? Because I've checked around and US Navy vessels use the definate article "The" as well. It doesn't make a difference.--The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 20:31, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

When we were originally discussing this (it was one of the earliest discussions of this project), I thought we determined that the US Navy did refrain from using the definite article when refering to a ship, at least in official documents. I'm not saying there's no way we could have been/are wrong, but I'd be much more interested to see how various news papers, Navy press releases, etc. refer to ships. In speaking, people tend to be much more lax, but I'd prefer to borrow from, say, the AP handbook on this. In fact, I have a friend who is a journalist and keeps track of this kind of thing. Should I ask him what the AP rules on this? Does anyone care what they say? --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 22:33, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

Oh yeah, Day, exactly; if you can find some thing that says official documents do not use "the" that would be great confirmation. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 10:23, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

Got it. The relevant text will follow, but the Navy has a whole Style Guide.

ship names - For first reference always include USS, the ship's name and the hull number: USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75).

Exceptions: Do not use "USS" for ships before 1909; or if she is not yet in commission; or she has been decommissioned and you are referring to the ship in her present state.

There is no hyphen in the hull number. In All Hands text, the ship name is in italics. On second reference, use only the ship's name. Do not use "the" in front of a ship's name: "USS San Jose," not "the USS San Jose."

Ships are to be referred to as "she" or "her."

Ships' nicknames are placed inside quotation marks on first reference only. USS LaSalle (AGF 3), the "Great White Ghost," sailed into San Diego.

Ship names are not in all caps. Use USS Seattle, not USS SEATTLE.

So that's what the US Navy has to say about it, anyway. We can take it or leave it, but it would be pretty easy just to steal it wholesale. --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 21:21, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Steal it wholesale :) Thanks: that's a definative answer. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 21:58, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Concur. Steal it and cite it. --Steelviper 22:04, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Whatever floats the boat, gentlemen, so long as it keeps us to a standard. Mind you, what the US Navy uses is not necessarily what the Colonial Fleet uses, so if I were to see a conflict (based on consistency of usage in episodes), this is something we should review. --Spencerian 10:25, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Incorperated into the Ships section. --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 03:47, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

American vs British English Style Usage

This wiki started with several initial contributors from the U.K. As such, these contributions were written in the Queen's English (things such as centre and not the American English center, for example). As Battlestar season 1 aired in the U.S. and American contributions increased, there is a predominant usage of American English in the wiki. I noted that one user had recently edited a page, correcting some misspellings but also changing correct American English words to their British counterpart. I asked Joe about this very early on in my editing last year, and he noted that we should use American English. I commented on None's talk page about this, adding the following (which I recommend as policy):

• Please use American English for wiki contributions in the English version of Battlestar Wiki whereever possible.
• If you are British, please feel free to add your contributions in the "Queen's English" as this will make it easier for you to contribute. However, please do not re-edit correctly spelled American English edits to their British counterparts unless you are rewriting whole paragraphs, sections, or articles.

Commments? --Spencerian 14:47, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

I must say I am to blame as well for doing this once or twice. When going through pages correcting typos using spell checkers I also found myself accidently "correcting" american spellings for british. Oops --Mercifull 15:14, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

I believe this policy is already stated on the main S&C page, but you can feel free to clarify it if you feel that's necessary. --Peter Farago 16:49, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Yeah. I thought that was pretty clear, but go ahead and make it more so, if you want, Spence. --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 19:59, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

I agree completely, Spencerian. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 12:30, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

Clarified the existing policy. I didn't see the phrase "American English" in my scan. This doesn't apply to the non-English versions of the wiki, so someone with proper or appropriate fluency should restate the policy for these wiki versions so we don't have European Spanish and Mexican Spanish confusions, to take one example. --Spencerian 19:13, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

Comics Canonicity

I'm worried about information from Battlestar Galactica 0. I'm not sure it's entirely canon (i.e. aside from just that it's a comic, they've got Cylons making cloned copies of humans before "Pegasus" when Ron Moore said that they haven't done that yet, and if they didn't they'd make a big deal out of it). ---->Anyway, I like what Memory Alpha does: we shouldn't remove the actual articles for things found in the comic, "Third Colonial Conflict", etc., however, they shouldn't find their way into normal RIC articles, like the Timeline, character bios, etc. etc. You know. So I don't think these articles should be deleted, but I think we should develop a new template to put at the top of each that says "This is from a comic, not canon", and that we shouldn't mix them into standard articles. What's everyone else's thoughts (after seeing the stuff)?--The Merovingian ;sup>(C - E) 13:14, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

I concur. We should keep the stuff, but note that it isn't canon and ensure that it doesn't spill over into the canon articles. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 13:29, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

We could also move these articles as subpages of the comic, so they don't proliferate the canon namespace. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 13:32, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

I agree, but I don't know how to do that. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 13:37, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

That's not a problem. I could do that, if there's consensus to do so. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 13:49, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

• The comics are fully within BSG canon. The writer and producers have said that several times and it says so in BSG 0. However, since you have made it clear that this "encyclopedia" is not interested in anything except episodes that have already aired, I'll save you the trouble of doing anything further with it. Kuralyov 13:58, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
  • All we can do is ask about it directly in the blog, but seriously, I think what RDM did was give it a 5 minute once over, realize they weren't killing off Baltar by making his head explode or say that Apollo and Starbuck are long lost brother and sister, and then gave it the go-ahead for merchandise/publicity. Until we get more word from RDM on the particulars, I don't think a "holding pattern" of keeping it segregated could hurt. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:18, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
  • Kuralyov, where have the producers and writers said that these works are canon? Please provide some links to interviews and so forth. Thanks. :-) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 14:38, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

This is a simple issue. The comics are canon within their own continuity. Where they interesect the main continuity in a purely perfunctory manner (such as Zak Adama), it should be fine to footnote the incident. When large liberties are taken, we can resort to namespaced articles as necessary. --Peter Farago 19:43, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

I concur with Peter on this. I really loved the first issue, but what happens in the comic may not necessarily reflect what's aired in the main series and should be labeled or tagged as such. I'm even OK with using the episode template to further define its continuity (which forces "episode" pages to delineate things) and we already have all the tools, and it also invites discussion. I may move this first comic page to this format just to kill several birds with one stone about this topic to show what I mean. --Spencerian 17:59, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

Then we need to define what a "large liberty" is so that we know it when we see it. I'd be fine including these events as full cannon if someone can show me RDM saying it's cool. Otherwise, we might take a hint from Lucasarts and develop a kind of "level" of cannonicity, or else treat the comic kind of liek the video game: strangely related in some ways, but not really... right. If you take my meaning. If not, I'll try to explain again. --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 23:16, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

Hm. Good point, and Merv's concern makes more sense to me in terms of the edits on Timeline (RDM). What if we put all semi-canonical plot points (comics, novels, etc.) in their own section of the concerned articles, to avoid mingling content? --Peter Farago 02:29, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

"like the video game: strangely related in some ways, but not really... right." My thoughts exactly. Well I don't really agree with your idea Peter, though I would not actively oppose it if you decide to do it. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 07:44, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

The difference is that the video game does not take place in the same continuity as RDM at all, whereas the comics do have to acknolwedge RDM continuity - just not vice-versa. --Peter Farago 09:45, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

I've not played it, but my impression was that the video game was supposed to have happened to Bill in the Cylon War, right? So, isn't it supposed to be part of the continuity? Or does it have some kind of big details that make it obvious that it wasn't, really, intended to be in-continuity (as opposed to things like Twelve Colonies = 12 planets vs. TC = 1 planet that would show it being related, but at an early stage in development of the show)? --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 23:35, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

I wish it were that easy. The game created or added elements that were to be used in the Singer/DeSanto revival and derived elements from TOS. The William Adama there is actually the one that works more like the original Adama of TOS. There is an Imperious Leader there, with a name, and he seems more like an organic being TOS Cylon. So for the sake of keeping things together, the VG is its own continuity that's really neither TOS or RDM. See Video Game for more. --Spencerian 14:18, 5 June 2006 (CDT)

Our Name

I note that shane has been italicizing "Battlestar Wiki" wherever he includes it. Do we like this? I suppose it's the style we'd use if we were referring to, say, Britannica, but it seems a little self-important to me. --Peter Farago 00:17, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

To note, for reference, I started doing this after I saw a few other places (got to be back around count 40 in my contribs). When Battlestar Wiki refers to itself, "Battestar Wiki uses the etc etc." it not supposed to be quoted, but if a verb follows or preceds (i.e "These are images used exclusively on Battlestar Wiki.") with "on" being the verb refering to the site. If Battelstar Wiki was talking, yes it be non-italixized. But most of the times we refer to Battlestar Wiki. A great place that Battlestar Wiki is italicized is {{Project}}. "This page is one of Battlestar Wiki's many projects." implying Battlestar Wiki. Am I making any sence? :) --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:36, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

In different places on this page it's used several different ways.. Battlestar Wiki, BattlestarWiki, and Battlestar Wiki. I don't know, but I can tell you that having Battlestar Wiki as two words, needs to standout instead of Battlestar Wiki. Wikipieda can get away with this because it's just one word. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:43, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

Another note, above... --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:45, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

It seems like consensus was against italics above. --Peter Farago 00:57, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

I still feel that it should be italizied, and I know joe agreed with CA, but if I had to talk about this issue now, this is how I feel. Granted there are occatiosn when it shouldn't but in most case it has been italiced. I really think its of option in style. Just typing this, I relzied why we should italized. The namespace Battlestar Wiki. This can make it stand out if it's in a project page or text seperate from the namespace. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 01:05, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

As ever, if we do something other than whatever's default (normal text, in this case) I think we should find some outside convention and steal it. When quoting the title of a web page for a bibliography (or Sources Cited page), MLA Style mandates the use of underlining. This is somewhat problematic, since current XHTML/CSS standards advise the use of <em> or <strong> over <u> or <i> and sometimes browsers interpret em and strong differently (though we should theoretically be able to over-ride this by specifically styling them in our style sheet). I'd rather, I think, just do without the italics (or any other special styling), if for no other reason than it's easier. --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 03:33, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

Quotes

Since we been doing this alot, the "Action" before a quote... should it be in...

''[ Action ]''<br/>
Line 1
Line 2
-- [[33]]

--Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 12:42, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

It seems neater without the brackets. Is the brackets a standard we follow? --FrankieG 13:25, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

I seen it two different ways. I think the Brackts have it "stand out" if it was an action before any text and () actions that are in a line of a quote, should be done that way. "(Sarcastic) shane's a geek" -- shane --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 13:29, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

I don't think there IS a standard yet (which is what Shane was pointing out). So let's figure out how it should be done, and apply that. The transcripts from sadgeezer use italics, but we do use an awful lot of italics already in our quotes. --Steelviper 13:34, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

Just thought that there may be a pre-existing standard on the brackets. Is italics used for more than the episode name? I glad that we I having this discussion. I have been working on quotes and trying to guess how to do things ( not in the existing standards) by looking at the existing quotes. Also, after thinking about Shane's () in the quote, the [] makes sense. --FrankieG 15:09, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

Adjustment to Links to Episodes

The current policy appears to be missing a significant item. I recommend adjustment to the policy as follows:

When referring to episodes in text, use quote marks. This helps keep them distinct from other text. This is especially useful for unwieldly episode name such as "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I".

• Example: "In the episode "Pegasus", Galactica finds Pegasus."

When using an episode to cite a source, use parenthesis, but do not place quotes around the episode name. Citations go inside the sentence's punctuation.

• Example: "Galactica finds Pegasus (Pegasus)."

When referencing successive episodes within parentheses, place each episode name within quotes, separating them by commas placed within the quotes. (Do not place quotes around the name of Miniseries, as this is a designation and not an actual episode name.)

• Example: Lee Adama is moody often (Miniseries, "33," "Water," "The Hand of God").

This convention is widely used throughout most articles and greatly aids in identifying episode names within a lengthy citation. If it seems contrary in that we add quotes to successive episodes within parentheses but not in a single episode citation, a consistent convention may be to place quotes around ALL episode citations, parentheticals or not. I dinged Shane on this, not realizing we still hadn't properly defined this in policy. In any case, quotes are important when we have titles that are identical to other objects: Pegasus is a prime example, as is Resurrection Ship. Comment? --Spencerian 16:01, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

if these are source, which in which () is being used for, and since only things in quotes should be something in text, it would be bad to do this within the () inline ref symbols. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 16:13, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

Plus just adding "" makes it confusing. If it is going to happen, it should be around all of them, but I think it is an unnessary format. It will also look bad in the middle of text. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 08:23, 24 June 2006 (CDT)

Original Series definition: a typical Cylon response to an order (see: By your command) (TOS: "Saga of a Star World," et al.)

Re-imagined Series definition: the senior pilot on a battlestar

Re-imagined Series definition: Executive Officer, e.g. Saul Tigh

Re-imagined Series definition: Commanding Officer; e.g. William Adama

Re-imagined Series definition: Battlestar Group ^{(TRS: "Water")}. It also doubles as an acronym for the television series itself.

Re-imagined Series definition: in military parlance, directive to continue the attack; otherwise used to refer to journalists ^{(TRS: "Maelstrom")}