Talk:Gaius Baltar/Archive 1

You Heard It Here First (I think)

Things are just adding up too well in my mind that Baltar is now a Cylon. Consider his uncanny tendency to sense what turn out to be other Cylons (Doral, Boomer). I added speculation on this based on past events. In particular, a nuclear blast of the type that leveled his home would cut both Six's and his body to shreds--her body was far from sufficient protection. Remember that such a blast turns everything (rocks, metal, wood) into a wall of death that bludgeons all, like a volcanic pyroclastic flow. Consider that we see Baltar relatively unscathed after this, with no explanation of his escape. This is a serious matter to consider since we must remember that the TOS Baltar actually joined the Cylons, becoming a commander, and became more than a mere traitor. Spencerian 11:16, 2 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Peter Virago has a good point where we should ask, if Baltar is a Humano-Cylon, why does she protect Baltar from the nuclear blast at his home in the first place?

Answer: For appearances. Remember that the information of a Humano-Cylon's brain is transmitted to another copy. Since a Baltar clone would need to keep a contiinuous memory (fragmented briefly by blind terror in escaping the area), it would be a simple matter to have a new copy of Baltar "wake up" with minor wounds, where his natural tendency to be chickenshit would have him run with the rest of the groups. For Six's aims, Baltar may need to continually reminded that he is human and never reveal what might be his true nature. A lot of things that the Humano-Cylons do seems to be for show, to drive or manipulate the remaining humans, rather than killing them outright. Spencerian 12:22, 3 Aug 2005 (EDT)

OK. Feldspar makes the most convincing argument against the possibility of Baltar being a Cylon. It still doesn't eliminate the thought, however. Remember that Baltar's chain has been pulled this way and that. The idea that he is still human may also be an illusion to both the viewer and him. Remember that Galactica Boomer was just all happy and thought she, too, was an ordinary human, and look how that turned out. Despite what Six shows him in terms of a baby, it may still be a deception as a process of brainwashing his consciousness to work as a Cylon agent. I don't believe that Cylons want to make human/Cylon hybrids the default: they just need human DNA to get started on their own. Hopefully we'll get some kind of resolution to this one in this season. Spencerian 15:48, 22 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Now THIS deserves Quality Article status

Mq59's addition of a publicity photo of James Callis' incredibly "crazy look" as Baltar, along with Day's and other recent edits have really refined this page. The page is very close to perfect in format, standards, sources, and balanced speculation. This is a good example of how other character articles should resemble. Thoughts? --Spencerian 17:11, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Right, but we still don't know how that stupid "quality article" template works, and the Help:Template page isn't very instructive. Back on topic though, I do like the article. Nice balance of the pictures. I agree with the new "crazy pic". Do the parenthetical citations need quotes, though ("Gaius Baltar")? Otherwise, I can't find any other nits to pick offhand. --Steelviper 17:20, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Well, of course, like others here I view the entire "could Baltar be a Cylon?" arguement as insanity, but much of that same article also gives much evidence of how he couldn't be; regardless, it's a fine article. I'm not one to use the phrase "slam dunk" lightly, but this page...--Ricimer 18:04, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Just you wait, Ricimer, I will be proved right in the end about Baltar, even if we have to waltz through Season 5 to find out! I did try to keep the Baltar-the-Cylon section balanced, so thanks for the nit-pick. On quotes within parentheses: No, we generally don't use them unless:

• The items are in a sentence format within, such as here (Miniseries, "Valley of Darkness", "Scattered"). Quotes should not be used in single episode notations as shown here (Fragged). When "Miniseries" is single-noted, it should not have quotes as it's not an episode name per se.
• A certain emphasis or sic implication is needed to note an important variation. In SV's example, "Pegasus" was in quotes within ()s to differentiate it from the battlestar article. I don't know if this particular practice was made convention, but I use it, and for this episode wikilink only.

Yeah, it will be nice once we get that Quality Template working, but yes, it should be reserved for the best o f the best, and hopefully, we can update the Main Page to show the article and give it a look like Wikipedia to highlight them or an Article of the Day. T-Minus 28 hours and counting... --Spencerian 18:25, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Thanks, but I didn't upload the Crazy Baltar photo. I made some grammatical corrections, smoothed out some things, and included Baltar manhandling of Cally when she tried to blackmail him as a pre-Tyrol example of Baltar's new willingness to physically hurt others.

mq59 20:15, 5 January 2006 (EST)

There is a Convention on episode names and citations. You can find it afore-linked, but, just to paraphrase it, if it's a parenthetical citation, then it goes like this: ([[Episode Name]]). Notice the following period. If it's within a sentence it should be put in quotations, thus: Blah blah as seen in "[[Episode Name]]" when et cetera. We don't have a specific case for parenthetical lists or for the Mini, but I think Spence's gut feeling is probably good. I'll try to remember to start a discussion about it on the S&C Talk tomorrow. --Day 01:59, 6 January 2006 (EST)

I shouldn't post this here, but I just want to note that I dislike quotes when multiple-noting. They add clutter and don't really improve clarity or readability. --Peter Farago 02:04, 6 January 2006 (EST)

A Friendly Wager, Spencerian

Spencerian, you are adamant that the evidence points towards Baltar being a Cylon. I, however, firmly believe that the many facts, points of evidence, and conjecture, etc. already posted up in counterarguements on this article makes it impossible for Baltar to be a Cylon. (Note that it isn't simply "my gut feeling"; I believe that, logically, the evidence points against it). -->Our edits on BattlestarWiki, in the Question and Analysis sections in the episode guide, and in checking and comparing various points and theories on the other articles (involving Cylons, timeline, etc, etc.) are based on such debate over the facts.-->I believe that this debate forms a macrocosm of this in its most concentrated form, a logical edit debate, based on facts and points of evidence (rather than flame war and childish name calling). In short, I view it as the ultimate test, of our skills, our ability to make good conjecture based on evidence at hand, comparing points and counterpoints.--->As a result Spencerian, because we hold these polar opposite views on this matter, I propose the following gentlemanly wager; [U]If Baltar is proved to or revealed to be a Cylon, your edits will hold precedence over anything I write in perpetuity. If Baltar is proven beyond any resonable doubt to be a Human and not a Cylon, my edits will hold precendence over anything you write in perpetuity.[/U]

For example, conditions under which Ricimer wins this wager are:

• The remaining six humanoid Cylon models are eventually revealed, and we see that NONE of the 12 models are Gaius Baltar.
• Gaius Baltar fathers a child with a humanoid Cylon: It has been established that it is impossible for two humanoid Cylons to procreate.

Conditions under which Spencerian wins this wager are:

• When all 12 humanoid Cylon models are revealed, one of them turns out to be Baltar.

(Please add any conditions for either side which I may have forgotten). -->Do you accept, Spencerian? Or are you unsure of your position in this matter? Speaking for myself, my belief that Baltar is not a Cylon is unwavering. --Ricimer 22:59, 5 January 2006 (EST)

I like the wager, but your stakes are not appropriate. --Peter Farago 23:44, 5 January 2006 (EST)

What would be? --Ricimer

I like the wager, too, but I wouldn't want to take precidence over your (or anyone's) edits. In fact, we all hold that power (admin rights notwithstanding, which cannot be transferred or neglected). I'd sooner buy you something else: This model of the battlestar. Or, perhaps send you a small sum to buy the beer of your choice (assuming you are 21+), or a $10 gift certificate to the iTunes Music Store (sorry, you'd have to furnish your own iPod). I will make the choice of the prize depending on my budget at the time--sorry, but the wiki's admin wages are a bit low to go crazy... :)

You DO realize that I added or enhanced many of the counterarguments as well as the arguments in the very section, right? Even if Starbuck, say, turned up pregnant, does that necessarily mean that Baltar is a human? No. While no information has been forwarded by the show (yet), a Cylon male might be able to sire a child through a human female, too. The only problem with this wager is that the damn show may last 7 seasons before we find out Baltar's fate!

Oh, and this is a big hunch, but I think there's a 13th model--an overlord that's vastly more intelligent. Imagine if we're able to see who commands the basestars? I wonder who. --Spencerian 00:22, 6 January 2006 (EST)

Now that's friendlier. I'm on Ricimer's team for this one. --Peter Farago 00:58, 6 January 2006 (EST)

Such material/monetary things are irrelevant to me. But you are in luck because it so happens there is something I want, something I wanted ever since I came here, they say it cannot be taken, it have to be given...--Ricimer 01:07, 6 January 2006 (EST)

I thought you'd figure this one out, but it may have been lost on us in the hiatus, etc.; formalizing it--> If Baltar is revealed to be a Cylon, you must aide me in becoming an Administrator (see above, where I explain how the debate is a good showcase, etc. etc.). In the event that he is revealed to be a Cylon, I will either A) stop all attempts at being an Administrator, never running again, or B) If I am already an Administrator, quit the position permanently. These stakes seem "free of loss of life", to say the least...--Ricimer 18:04, 23 January 2006 (EST)

Seems like the debate over Ellen should factor in here somewhere. (I can't stand her either, Ric. But I don't think she's a Cylon... unfortunately. Maybe we'll still be able to watch her die, though.) --Watcher 10:30, 6 January 2006 (EST)

Thing about Ellen is, either she's an aged Six (we've not seen how Humano-Cylons age or even IF they do or if they've been around long enough to do much of it, but still) or she's human, as I see it. RDM said that the Cylons, in making their 12 models, kind of said, "You know what? There's only really 12 of you." If that's so, then they're all going to be sort of architypal and Six already fills the attractive, sexually agressive blonde slot. What we have yet to see is the Manly Warrior model (Like Anders or someone). I wonder if Cylons would made a distinction between genders in that case and maybe the Manly Warrior model could still be a woman. Anyway... that's a bit off-topic. --Day 14:16, 6 January 2006 (EST)

The theory that Ellen Tigh could be an "older" Number Six is just silly to me. As for Ellen Tigh herself, I do not believe that any of the RDM comments we have reviewed definatively point one way or the other: I leave it as "we're not quite sure, but there's always still a possibility". --Ricimer 16:01, 6 January 2006 (EST)

Bio Cleanup, Portents of Doom

Well, Baltar's page is about to exceed the recommended size limits for an article. I will add this request for solutions to the Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions project, but we will need to either truncate the cumultative history in this page, or break up the data into seasonal subarticles (which is what I recommend). Added a cleanup tag to give note to all. The Baltar-as-a-Cylon data remains (IMHO) relevant, but adds too much weight to the page and should be moved, perhaps, to the Humano-Cylon article (nevermind the debate there to work in that article into the general Cylons (RDM) main article or as a subarticle). Thoughts on this and how to deal with other main character articles that grow under their episodic weight? --Spencerian 15:55, 31 January 2006 (EST)

This is a real problem, and one that we haven't really had to face until now. The TOS pages don't have enough material to run into this limit, and are relatively static. These pages, on the other hand, will only keep getting bigger. I like the idea of the season-based subarticles. Enough info on the main page for somebody to get the drift, with detailed episode by episode analysis only if they choose to drill down to the subpage. --Steelviper 16:04, 31 January 2006 (EST)

I may use Baltar's page to begin such a transition as an example soon, although I'm still trying to wrap my head around a similar issue with the complexities of the Miniseries and related subarticles. I'll have to review other articles to see how best this can work. Perhaps a central Gaius Baltar page, with links to Gaius Baltar/Season 1 and similar successive subarticles (no character template? or add template per page, adjusting data as of each season end?). Does that work from a wiki standpoint? I trust your wiki skills better, SV; my strengths are editing, identifying and elaborating on insightful stuff from the show (as he shamelessly promotes the Case Orange and Science in the Re-imagined Series pages), and admin negotiation skills (no need to explain there :). --Spencerian 16:32, 31 January 2006 (EST)

That's how I imagined it. I'd lean towards one character template for the parent article (in the event of catasrophic need to change all character templates, we only have to worry about one per character). The tricky part would be how to categorize the child articles. Leave them with no category, and they show up on the "uncategorized articles" report. (Not a problem, other than my OCD.) If we put them in a category then they would just up next to baltar on the category pages.

• Gaius Baltar
• Gaius Baltar/Season1
• Gaius Baltar/Season2

That might look a little goofy. I'll look to Wikipedia and see if I can find a pattern to follow. (My pattern-following skills are what pass for wiki-skills). --Steelviper 16:40, 31 January 2006 (EST)

Example: Main Page (summary) and Detail Page. The category on the subpage is "Isaac Newton", which is sort of odd. I guess in our case the category would be Gaius Baltar. (And you'd end up with a category for each major character. I guess the "major character" category would be a subcategory of Characters... --Steelviper 16:53, 31 January 2006 (EST)

Rather than hastily spliting Baltar's bio article into two separate ones, why don't we move the entire, Controversial, "Baltar is a Cylon" arguement to it's own page? That would shave off like a third of this pages' information, and I think that we can all agree that it doesn't need to be right here.--Ricimer 17:51, 31 January 2006 (EST)

I agree that we should move the "Baltar is a Cylon" section to its own subpage. -- Joe Beaudoin 18:27, 31 January 2006 (EST)

Done. See the new Cylon agent speculation article. I've also managed to work in the qualifiers that increase or decrease the probability. I also moved the speculations from the Humano-Cylon article here as well. --Spencerian 21:16, 31 January 2006 (EST)

I think season-based subarticles are a horrible idea. There is no reason this article cannot be drastically summarized. See one of the longer biography articles on Memory Alpha for an example of the style we should be shooting for - Jean-Luc Picard, for example - and note that this covers seven seasons and four movies worth of material. --Peter Farago 21:11, 31 January 2006 (EST)

The man has a point. We'll need to take lessons from that wiki, perhaps move to bullet points in some bios. --Spencerian 21:14, 31 January 2006 (EST)

I agreee utterly with Farago and Spencerian.--Ricimer 22:45, 31 January 2006 (EST)

So the consensus appears to be: "Conventionizing and concising"? (With emphasis on the consising.) --Steelviper 23:19, 31 January 2006 (EST)

I recently, for reasons I can no longer recall, read the entirety of Bones' Memory Alpha entry. They seemed to hit on some of the high points of his career, but not go into great detail. So we would mention that Gaius invented the flightprogram thing that went so badly, was elected Vice President, invented and then covered up a reliable (if slow) Cylon detector, etc, without going into great detail. What do others think of this? If we need to discuss some specific incidents in particular, we could make sub pages on the topics (like "Might Be a Cylon" analyses or other things that might need to cite specifics about various episodes). --Day 23:35, 31 January 2006 (EST)

Six in his Head

At this point, RDM has made fairly clear (in the Downloaded podcast) that the Six in Baltar's head is, in fact, a psychotic hallucination. The implication is that even when Baltar correctly divines Cylon motives and Cylon nature (for example, coming up with the Cylon detector based on Six-in-his-head's lead of using a nuclear warhead), it's really just two sides of his own established genius talking in a kind of multiple-personality-disorder situation. I suppose it's possible that RDM is trying to mislead, but that seems needlessly conspiratorial.

As a result, an awful lot of what appears to be Cylon manipulation is actually all Baltar, all the time. Some of it (like the case of the Olympic Carrier, for example) can be construed as either coincidence or the Cylons having a sufficiently good handle on Baltar's psychology that they can guess he'll be manipulable without knowing he's hallucinating Six and that, in turn, is making him more susceptible.

That said, Baltar himself doesn't seem to fully realise Six is an hallucination.

I guess what I'm getting at is, the article currently reflects the ambiguity from Baltar's POV (and the viewer's early-series POV), rather than the certainty provided by the producer :-) Should we fix this?

--Uncle Mikey 11:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

I think that RDM's comments should be noted in the appropriate section with the equally appropriate context. However, I would be very, very leery of believing his comments as the "holy writ", since (by his own admissions in the podcasts, commentaries, and other venues), there were many things that were thrown in later on. (Boomer being a Cylon in the Mini, Cally's salvation in Bastille Day, Boxey being scrapped entirely, et al.). -- Joe Beaudoin 12:54, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Point taken. I'm pretty sold on the hallucination idea to begin with, but I'll agree that they've changed their minds before. This show is clearly not being run like Babylon 5, with a pre-definined beginning, middle and end, and even B5 saw changes from Joe's original vision when better ideas surfaced or vagaries of casting and network politics demanded.

Should there be a separate section discussing this aspect, separate from the overt and indisputable manipulations by the Cylons?--Uncle Mikey 11:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

I also feel that that is just the way he's talking; Number Six could still be a hallucination or an organic chip. --The Merovingian 14:21, 4 March 2006 (CST)

'Running" for office

In the VP election, Roslin put him in over Wallace Gray, to defeat Zarek. In the presidential election, Zarek put him in over himself, to defeat Roslin. Ironic, eh?--KoopaTroopa211 10:48, 7 March 2006 (CST)

It's just another part of the "you reap what you sow" theme in BSG. -- Joe Beaudoin 11:29, 7 March 2006 (CST)

Cleanup?

Does this article still need cleanup? --Steelviper 14:15, 14 March 2006 (CST)

I think so, although right at the moment I can't quite pin down exactly what still feels rough about the page (don't have time right now to really read it over in depth). Also, it probably needs to be updated to take into account "Lay Down Your Burdens"...--Uncle Mikey 14:18, 14 March 2006 (CST)

Done :) --Shane ^{(C - E)} 01:44, 18 March 2006 (CST)

Cylon Detector Mechanism

"which functions by exposing cell samples to the warhead's radiation, because it has already been demonstrated (Miniseries) that Cylons are more susceptible to certain kinds of radiation." Are we sure that's how it works? It seems that the warhead is not so integral to the operation of the detector after LDYB (that or he didn't think it'd be needed again). --Steelviper 13:57, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Yeah, I'm also skeptical. --Peter Farago 14:36, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

It works by exposing cells to radiation; Cylons are affect by that as we saw in the Miniseries. He said that. When he gave Gina the nuke, he sabotaged his own detector; the detector didn't work after that. Of course, Baltar was just saying that everyone was "green" anyway, so no one noticed. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 15:24, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Major Pre-Season 3 Revision

As with the William Adama article, I've heavily concised this article (removing mostly unneeded and redundant episode narrative) in the same format to prepare for additional material in season 3. --Spencerian 12:18, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

Succession box

Why is the scientific adviser succession box gone? --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 11:08, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

It's not really a formal position, is it? Galactica must have many qualified scientists, who contribute to varying degrees. Gaeta didn't formally succeed Baltar in that capacity. --Peter Farago 11:11, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

True. Just noticed Felix Gaeta doesn't have this box either. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 11:32, 17 April 2007 (CDT)