Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

7th squadron

Did anyone else see the 7th squadron logo behind Helo? TaKometer 16:12, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Photo

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes here. -- Spike 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)

Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)

It already is. Its used on the Final five page. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)

Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --Slander 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --Spencerian 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)

Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --Slander 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)

13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --BklynBruzer 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

My Predictions

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:

• Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
• Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
• Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
• The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
• Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --Slander 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)

1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --BklynBruzer 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)

As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --Peter Farago 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --BklynBruzer 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --Slander 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)

HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --BklynBruzer 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --Slander 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)

Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --Slander 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)

The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --BklynBruzer 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)

I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--Galactageek 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance. With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting, but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are. Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to, while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol. My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race, refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me. But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned. Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward? Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mevenstar (talk • contribs).

The was a good read.--Galactageek 01:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Dualla's partner?

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --Steelviper 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)

Not sure if it was Fisher, but I think he's one of the marines for sure --Serenity 05:05, 24 January 2007 (CST)

I'm pretty sure Dee says "Sarge?" after he gets shot. I could be wrong though. -Madbrood 06:23, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Sooner Rather Than / Or Later?

• The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A Cavil voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --Saiboogu 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --Galactageek 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

I edited the line but left the implication that they were going to box her for the talk page. If I remember, I think it has already been implied on earlier episode summaries that the Threes may be boxed - it goes without saying on this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Saiboogu (talk • contribs).

Multiple Cavil's?

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --Galactageek 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

It looked like there were other Cavils doing the same thing to all the other Threes in the wide shot that ended the episode. It is rather interesting that Cavil's normally not among the models who participates in a post-resurrection midwifing, yet he's the only one there when a boxing takes place, no? --Kahran 02:04, 24 January 2007 (CST)

To me it looked like a lot of Cavil-activity too. If (as many people here believe) Cavil is Number Two, then his actions in this episode make perfect sense. He's the one who confronts D'Anna in the temple and almost kills her, he's the one who proposes boxing the Threes in the first place, and he's the one who ends up actually doing it. If Cavil is either Two or Four, he'd be the representative of the remaining Cylons and it would make sense for him to go on a boxing spree. Also, if Cavil is Two, he wouldn't want his 'leadership' status (as far as he has any; he didn't protest against the majority decision to attack the Colonies) threatened by the revelation of Number One (who I believe to be among the Final Five). --Catrope 03:39, 24 January 2007 (CST)

I gotta get me a bigger tv.--Galactageek 01:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Deanna Recognition

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--Galactageek 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Fleet-D'Anna from Final Cut interacted with Roslin, Adama, Tigh, and Lee. As for Downloaded/Final Five-D'Anna, it's just been Baltar, Doc Cottle and Anders, who she was a righteous bitch to and nearly killed by the way. --Kahran 02:07, 24 January 2007 (CST)

I thought Fleet-D'Anna was Final Five-D'anna --BklynBruzer 05:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

I think it's pretty obvious that the D'anna who found Hera and searched for the Five is the D'anna we know from Final Cut. Caprica-Three has a rather nastier temperament, both in Downloaded and in Occuprice. It's possible the Three who defies the basestar command in Rapture is Caprica-Three as well. I believe only one Number Three is referred to as D'anna and that's Final Cut D'anna. Note that even the other Cylons refer to her by that name. Normally, Cylons only seem to bestow individual names on a Cylon who has accomplished something significant. (For example, while D'anna mentioned speaking to a Simon, this was so Baltar would know who she's talking about.) --Slander 08:58, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Yeah, that was the clincher for me, when the other Cylons called her D'Anna. --BklynBruzer 09:19, 24 January 2007 (CST)

The D'Anna that's been focused on recently is the one who was in Downloaded, see her flashbacks in Hero and the response from Bradley Thompson (Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques). She's probably called D'Anna because Baltar calls her that. The reporter D'Anna from Final Cut was in the fleet at the time of Downloaded, so they're not one and the same. Messiah-D'Anna may be the one shown at the end of Final Cut. -- Noneofyourbusiness 16:34, 24 January 2007 (CST)

I transcribed the conversation, I'm not sure about "it's a trick before I die", the line was barely audible.

D'anna: "The final five, is it really you?"

D'anna: "You."

D'anna: "Forgive me I ... I had no idea."

transitions from D'anna holding mystery figure's hand in the vision to D'anna holding Balthar's hand in the temple

Balthar: "No idea about what? What did you see? Who was it?"

D'anna: "So beautiful."

Blathar: "What was? Tell me am I one of you."

D'anna: "You were right."

Balthar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me I have have to know. Tell me I have to know did you see my face? Am I a cylon?"

Balthar: "God ... it's a trick before I die."

Tyrol: "Welcome home mister president."

It was pretty heavily implied that it was Balthar, although the "forgive me, I have no idea" line would also be consistant with Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek. She could also be apologising for any as of yet unmentioned offscreen actions against any known or as of yet unintroduced character on Cylon occupied New Caprica or any of the Cylon-occupied Colonies. -- Gordon Ecker 22:16, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Fleet-Three from "Final Cut" can't possibly be Messiah-Three - during Three's first recreational suicide in "Hero", she flashes back to a scene from "Final Cut" set on Caprica. This means she's the same Three as the one watching the documentary in that episode, and not the one who was on Galactica at that time. She also flashes back to her death at the hands of Caprica-Six in "Downloaded", so we know that they are also the same character. Since it doesn't make sense for Messiah-Three to apologize for any actions taken by Fleet-Three, I think we can safely rule her out. That leaves the humans interacted with by Messiah-Three to be considered. There are only seven candidates:

• Sam Anders - Tried to kill him on Caprica (Downloaded)
• Tucker "Duck" - Blew her up at the NCP graduation ceremony (Occupation)
• Dodona Selloi - Consulted her regarding Hera's fate (Exodus, Part I)
• Cottle - Discussed Hera's cremation (Exodus, Part I)
• Felix Gaeta - Was present when she, Caprica-Six and Baltar evacuated Colonial One, but did not interact with him (Exodus, Part II)
• Denny "Bulldog" Novacek (Hero) - Interrogated by an anonymous "sick" Three on a Basestar.
• Gaius Baltar

In evaluating these, we should establish whether Messiah-Three has done anything to them worth apologizing for, and consider whether story logistics allow them to be a Cylon. Three has no reason to apologize to Duck, Selloi, Cottle or Gaeta, narrowing the field to just Baltar, Bulldog, and Anders.

From a storytelling standpoint, Baltar can't possibly be a Cylon. They've teased it so much that there's no dramatic payoff if they reveal it now - it would be a total anticlimax. It also ruins his character's dramatic function, since Baltar's role is to be the guilt-ridden traitor. His character can't function as a Cylon. If James Callis ever intends to leave the show, revealing him as one of the final five would be a good way to write him out, but in the near-term, it's just not a possibility.

Bulldog would be a completely uninteresting choice (since we know nothing about him and have no emotional investment in his character). Additionally, the actor will probably be difficult to book in the future, and the character has mitigating factors (a long military career with verified non-Cylons Bill Adama and Saul Tigh).

This leaves Anders as the only possibility. Messiah-Three certainly has grounds to apologize to him, and he has no real mitigating factors - no history prior to his time with the Caprica Buccaneers, and (notably) no children with his wife, Kara Thrace. It also explains his remarkable ability to withstand and quickly recover from walking pneumonia (Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II). --Peter Farago 01:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Love the analysis. Who you narrow it down to makes sense. Anders is just a goofy guy, though. I personally find the Bulldog theory more interesting because of his connection to Adama and Tigh. If we see the character pop up in upcoming credits that might be a sign that they're filling out his backstory. Until then, though, maybe Anders will take on more shades, or the writers will have a dramatic twist that'll make Baltar a more convincing choice.--Galactageek 01:53, 25 January 2007 (CST)

I think you're making a leap on the apology thing. The apology may not be for something that Three did to the Final Five model in question, but that she was sorry she didn't know that that person was a cylon and/or a member of the final five. Make sense? --RUSnooky 10:13, 25 January 2007 (CST)

It's possible, but it would be bad writing if that were the case. I'm making the (perhaps misguided) assumption that the writers respect our intelligence, and wouldn't give us a clue we can't use. --Peter Farago 10:23, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Boxing the Threes

There is discussion around here about just how they boxed the entire Three line, so here's my idea:

• Send all your Cavils to the Resurrection Ship's Three Deck.
• Reprogram the Centurions to forget the Threes are Cylons.
• Have the Centurions fire upon all Threes they can find in the fleet. (Resurrection Ship's gonna work overtime on that)
• Have your Cavils box the downloaded Threes.

Any alternative ideas, anyone? --Catrope 03:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Here's my one main idea, based on looking at what happened once D'Anna saw the final five.

• One of the consequences of her seeing the final five was that the experience would overload her Cylon brain. Take note that her eyes glazed over and her nose started to bleed, inferring that there was some sort of hemmorage occuring, probably from the brain area. Since it has been shown many times throughout the series that the Cylon models amongst themselves can communicate with each other on a near telepathic level, whether it is for voting on leadership decisions or sharing memories. I believe it is entirely possible that once D'anna saw the final five, the shared memory of that forbidden knowledge was transmitted to all the other Threes, thus resulting in their own deaths as well.

When Cavil talked with D'Anna and told her to look at all the "damage" she had caused, he seems to be talking about all the other resurrection chambers around her. This implied to me that the damage that occurred was that every Three died at the same time & thus time and energy had to be spent to resurrect them all. I take this to be the final breaking point for the rest of the Cylon leadership as resurrecting an entire line of cylons would have taxed the resources they currently had, plus now that all the Threes have this shared knowledge of the final five, it is too dangerous to keep them around, thus the final boxing.

That's my 2 cents. I understand how the other explanations can work and may very well be one of those. However, considering how often RDM and crew bring in some religious and spiritual twists every so often into their stories, what happened to D'Anna could be akin to how some religious teachings bring up the idea that once a normal human being looks upon the face of a god, their penalty is immediate death. Even in the RDM podcast, he referred to the cause of the boxing to the occurence that they finally took a bite of the forbidden knowledge, a reference to the Fall of Man account in the Judeo-Christian teachings.

Either case, I don't think the Cylons did much to "box" all the Threes. The Threes died because of D'anna's encounter with the final five and thus made it much easier to box all of them as they're resurrected. --LifeStar 10:29, 24 January 2007 (CST)

It's possible that The Threes simply accepted their faith? After all they were able to get a ship on the planet they had no further reason to disagree with the other cylons.

Also we see some people walking in the "boxing chamber" when Brother Cavil leaves. Who are they?--R4p70r 14:14, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Removed analysis

• Battlestar Wiki contributors confirmed the similarity between the symbolic Eye-of-Jupiter image in the Temple of Five and the painting seen in Kara Thrace's old apartment (Valley of Darkness) prior to this episode (see this talk page).
  • According to the RDM podcast, the image in Kara's apartment was a mandala that the actress had decided to paint before the actual shooting occurred.

These lines were removed by Peter Farago (Talk), saying: "Remove self aggrandizement. Nobody cares who conjectured what.".

I personally think both would be better off as separate bullet points in Notes rather than Analysis, but I do care. The second point is factual information that simply belongs here (I readded it). The first, well... I think deciding whether it's allowed to take pride in our own analysis is up to the admins (could you respond here, please?). --Catrope 06:39, 25 January 2007 (CST)

We had this same debate regarding the name of the Great Cylon Turkey Shoot, which Merv arrived at before RDM's podcast revealed that the battle actually was inspired by the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. The Merovingian wanted credit for it, but I argued at that time that the assignation of credit was irrelevant - I understand that you want to take pride in our community, but doing so is inappropriate inasmuch as it violates our NPOV policy (we certainly don't assign credit like that to non-wiki members), and isn't going to be a topic of interest to a viewer perusing the episode guide even a week from now. --Peter Farago 09:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)

ditto. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)

"Mandala"

I've got a bit of an issue with the continued use of the term "mandala when referring to the carving in the temple and to Starbuck's painting. Definitionally, a "mandala" is "a geometric figure representing the universe in Hindu and Buddhist symbolism." While the design bears some resemblence to a galaxy/universe, there is no proof that that is what it is. --BklynBruzer 08:06, 25 January 2007 (CST)

They did call it that in the episode, didn't they?

Adama: I think the Chief is right. I think the supernova does look like the mandala inside the temple.

--Peter Farago 09:17, 25 January 2007 (CST)

That's correct, they do call it a mandala. Maybe you (BklynBruzer) can add a note on how the ep's usage of the word "mandala" is incorrect. --Catrope 09:30, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Please read in detail the definition of mandala on Wikipedia. It is possible that the Thirteenth Tribe created the symbol for meditative use (it is in a Temple, after all). Mandalas don't have to be used or designed in a specific way except in a circular format, and it appears that the symbol adheres to the modern practice. Mandalas don't have to look like anything except for what it depicts or inspires, and it may relate to an element or concept of the universe, not a specific celestial object (although this one does). The fact that the symbol is all over the place gives it significance, but I feel we should stick to its modern application. --Spencerian 10:24, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Original Series definition: a title of nobility (e.g. Count Iblis)

Original Series definition: a Cylon outpost ^{(TOS: "Lost Planet of the Gods, Part I")}

Original Series definition: the equivalent of saying "objection" in a Colonial Tribunal ^{(TOS: "Murder on the Rising Star")}

Re-imagined Series definition: pseudo-civilian law enforcement agency overseen by the Cylon Occupation Authority on New Caprica, see: New Caprica Police ^{(TRS: "Occupation")}