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| ==Archived Page== | | == You Will Know the Truth == |
| I had to archive this page as it was three times larger than some browsers could read. I know that this is a very popular page, but please limit the discussion to the criteria and reasoning behind a character's suspicion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:04, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
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| == Romo Lampkin's entry ==
| | I found a [http://jamesjacob77.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-is-final-cylon_29.html blog post] that links to [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/ this page on scifi.com]. They've also got a [http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2319583&st=0 forum thread] on it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC) |
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| I truncated Lampkin's entry to its basic points and moved him to "low' probability. By the nature of the show, almost ''everyone'' is a suspect. Lampkin's demeanor is suspicious, but so is/was [[Tom Zarek]], [[Phelan]], [[Valance]], and many, many other antagonists in the show. "Creepy" is not a qualifier, per se. The point of association with Joseph Adama is of particular note for possibie disqualification if we can verify his time of death. Based on conversations with the surviving Adamas, it appears that the senior Adama died some time (>2 years) before the Cylon genocide, but we can't verify a time. If anything, for someone who actually ''knew'' Joseph Adama to be a survivor of the Fleet, like [[Ellen Tigh]]'s mysterious rescue, is a matter of question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
| | == [[Zak Adama]]? == |
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| == Statement on Death ==
| | It's possible that Zak Adama is the final Cylon. The main reason I say this is because of [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s line in [[Flesh and Bone]]: "Adama is a Cylon." I don't think that it's William Adama, Apollo, or by extension Dualla. Is this viable enough for inclusion in the article? --[[User:JemHadar359|JemHadar359]] 05:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| | :In this article on SyFy Portal[http://www.syfyportal.com/news425609.html], Michael Hinman claims that they have received confirmation of the identity of the final Cylon from multiple sources, and claims that the final Cylon is one of five characters listed in the article. Zak Adama is not on the list. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| | : As I said before—and forgive me for soundin' like a broken record—but this article will be dead in its present (and the ColdBoot form) before the season ends anyway. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
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| I have changed the following line:
| | == Just a feeling. . . == |
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| <blockquote>''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead, any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion. If the character returns in a manner other than being seen in a "flashback" scene or episode, then it is <strike>probable</strike> <u>possible</u> that the character is a Cylon.''</blockquote>
| | that the final cylon will be someone that there's been no speculation about. Someone right out of left field. Personally, I'd like to think it's. . . Romo Lampkin. [[User:Centurion 51773|Centurion 51773]] 16:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| The reason for this is due to the return of Starbuck, who due to her arrival and Apollo's reaction, we are not sure if she is human, Cylon, or even a delusion in his mind at this time.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 21:13, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
| | == What about Number Seven? == |
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| ==All Males Should Be In Low Probability==
| | Do we have any information about the existence or nonexistence of Number Seven? In many interviews and articles, it has been stated that the Final Five don't have model numbers, so it couldn't be any of them. Has the issue of Number Seven been addressed in any interviews? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| I think we should consider all male suspects to be in the lowest possible suspicion level since the number of males is already greater than that of females, and I doubt they would go as far as unbalancing it even more. Doesn't mean they can't be, but it does mean it's a lot less probable that they are Cylons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
| | : Not yet you don't. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| :Three's drawings were of three males and two females, yes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT) | | :: Since the Final Five are actually older, Seven must have been a failed model. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| ::I can't really tell, but I'm mainly basing my comment on the fact that it would be extremely disproportionate to have 8 Males and 4 females....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
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| :::Maybe it's meant to be the reverse of the human female to male ratio, where it's (as the Beach Boys have said) "two girls for every boy....". Seriously, there may be a reason why such a disparity exists, and in any case, I'm not sure that gender plays a factor in how things will transpire, as it hasn't played a factor in how things have happened thus far.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 00:13, 28 March 2007 (CDT) | |
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| ==Kara Thrace== | | == Archiving rather than deleting == |
| According to Katee Sackhoff she was one of the few actors told she wasn't a Cylon.([http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8547/redeye3copyci7.jpg Source]) I think this statement is enough to remove her from the list because Ronald D. Moore has already made up his mind as to who the fifth Cylon is (see note at the article about the [[Final five]]). --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 09:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
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| ==Major Revision Needed==
| | I can't say I'll miss all the fanwanking we did on this page and its sisters, but I think it'll be a hoot to leave these pages as of Ellen Tigh's reveal, locked with a note about the relative history of how contributors jerked themselves around trying to formulate a logic for the last Cylons. The main articles would be protected as well as the talk pages for people to smile and laugh at (especially the producers and writers who probably made ''sure'' we were wrong! ;) Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| I think this page should be replaced with an article concerning the remaining twelfth Cylon specifically. No character should be admitted to speculation without some sort of affirmative cause for suspicion - straight off the top of my head, that would include just Starbuck and Roslin. We should also re-evaluate our elimination criteria: | | :Sure, archive it. Though I will point out that if you read the [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/ColdBoot]] replacement that I started for it 6 months ago, it would in fact have led the reader to probably pick Ellen. Not sure why my efforts to get it live never amounted to anyting, but "nyah, nyah, I told you so..." :-) So archive that too. --[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 09:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| *Obviously biological offspring can no longer eliminate a character from suspicion, unless their partner is known to be a Cylon.
| | ::I'd say you'd get dibs on that prediction, Brad. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
| *Humanoid Cylons existed at least as early as 30 years prior to the third season, since that's how long Adama has known Tigh.
| | ***Ellen was on a LOT of shortlists. Her mysterious survival, and then Saul being a Cylon... [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 20:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC) |
| --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
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| == Suggested name for the last Cylon "#1" ==
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| OK, we don't actually know the numbers of any of the new 4 Cylons or even for Simon and Cavil, and RDM has said they were essentially assigned at random.
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| But I'm proposing a fun name, in homage to the Prisoner, for the last Cylon on the wiki should be #1. Since I would be really, really surprised if that is not indeed the number and role of this last Cylon anyway. Better than "12th Cylon" though I guess "Final Cylon" is OK. Strictly speaking, RDM could create more than 12 but for now that's how many he's said are there. Of course, there is another possible special Cylon out there, namely a humanoid incarnation of the Cylon God, a Cylon Jesus if you will. (I would pick Baltar as this -- not a Cylon, but much more.)
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| Or are people against #1 as a designation on the off chance that might not turn out to be its number?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 01:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
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| :While the ''Prisoner'' reference is valid, I think it'd probably be jumping the gun to assign a number. "Final Cylon" is OK for now, I guess. Especially as it relates to "Final Five". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
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| == The Eight Cylons in the fleet ==
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| While recogizing this isn't a chat forum, I think the following is reasonable fodder for speculation. You'll remember in ''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'' that [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] said there were eight Cylons in the fleet. Assuming that she somehow had access to this information despite not being able to identify any of the Final Five or even all of the original seven, let's try to reconcile this with present knowledge.
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| Cylons who are ''not'' in the fleet at the time include [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Samuel Anders|Anders]], and [[Gina]], as they arrived later. Those now known to Cylons who were in the fleet at the time are:
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| *Boomer herself
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| *[[D'Anna Biers]]
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| *The [[Cavil]] copy who later counselled Tyrol
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| *[[Saul Tigh]]
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| *[[Tory Foster]]
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| *[[Galen Tyrol]]
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| You'll notice this totals to six. Of the remaining two, one is probably the final unrevealed Final Fiver. Note this suggests that this Cylon is not [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], since she was on Caprica at the time.
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| As for the other, my best guess is [[Shelly Godfrey]], though if so she'd been hiding superbly well. I suppose there could also have been a [[Simon]] lurking about somewhere, though if so we ought to have been told after his cover was blown when Starbuck returned. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 09:56, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
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| :There may still have been a Simon hanging around somewhere, Starbuck didn't exactly take a picture of him. In a 45k-population, avoiding one person is not that hard to do. Also keep in mind that D'Anna wasn't unmasked upon Anders' return for the same reason. Both could've easily avoided Anders' resistance group during the year on New Caprica, after which they'd blend in with the other Cylons during the occupation. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 10:40, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
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| ::Since the 7 know nothing of the identities or activites of the five, she _should_ have just been guessing. Sharon would know the total count of 12, but should have had no reason to know Anders was on Caprica and four others were on board, unless we have been incorrectly informed about their non-knowledge of the F5. #3 and #6 certainly know nothing of them besides their count.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
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| :::She might've known how many of the Five there were, after all the reason why the Seven don't know their faces is because of their programming. Baltar was seriously messing with Boomer's programming, and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to access the deepest places. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
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| ::Well, we don't know when Biers was caught out because it happened off-camera: it could have been anytime in the year interlude during [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] between Anders' arrival till the Cylon conquest. I would assume that, for both Ander and Starbuck, the Colonials would be smart enough to sit people down after they return and at least get police composites drawn. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 19:05, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
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| == article reboot ==
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| Due to the fact that everything we known about the Humanoid Cylons has been thrown into the loop, I've started work on a "rebooted" version of the article, which can be [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|found here]]. Please discuss and modify this version as needed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:21, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :Agreed. And when we finish the reboot we delete this version. 12:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::Honestly we may as well delete this article. The fact that one of the Cylons ''fought in the first war on the human side'' really makes all of our points moot. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:02, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :::I keep needing to point this out - Tigh's history cannot be verified prior to his meeting with Adama. The Cylons were able to place Boomer in the Fleet with a convincing backstory; they could have done so with Tigh just as easily. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :I was never a fan of this article in the first place, but as said "Crossroads" really makes this pointless until we get some more information in Season 4 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :::Agreed! Let us wash this away and start anew! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:31, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::::[[w:Daleks|EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!]] (Dang it if I didn't start it all many moons ago with this [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|Baltar thing]]. Alrighty, then: [[w:Total Party Kill|rocks fall, everybody dies!]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :I'll give this until the 15th to see whether or not anyone objects. Not that I see much in the way of that happening, myself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:28, 10 April 2007 (CDT) | |
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| Let me start the counter argument (against total deletion but for reboot.) I feel that BSG is both a mystery and an SF show, and an important function for a Wiki like this is to document facts from Canon, official sources and reality to help viewers appreciate and understand the show. That includes both the SF and mundane aspects, but also its mysteries. Many people fear that speculating regarding the mysteries will lead to too much fanwanking, and that's a legitimate fear, but it's a mistake to go too far out of fear and conclude documenting the mysteries and clues should not be done.
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| This page was a failure before, but from a sort of "reverse fanwanking." Many folks ignored strong clues that the rules for the final five were very different from the significant seven. They assumed that the Final Five followed the same rules as the existing 7, which turned out to be the ungrounded speculation. My own correct assertions that this was the case were removed, but I'm not simply trying to say "told you so" here. I'm trying to point out if correct (and it turns out highly critical) information is removed, the process that led to that should be examined. I'm trying to say that appreciating a show of this sort requires giving in a bit to imagination. One must find the right balance to moderate, rather than stamp out, speculation on the mysteries.
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| I would actually recommend a series of pages about the major mysteries of the show and encourage the collection of not speculation of the mysteries, but the documented "facts" that will allow viewers to come to their own speculations and conclusions. The wiki should provide the foundation for one's own personal speculation. Yes, some people will overdo it, and start putting in invented theories, but I think they can be handled -- especially if there is a policy page that explains that the way you express a theory is to summarize the canonical clues, but not the conclusions (except in a broad sense, such as you're in a section entitled "Cylon speculation for Character X")
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| (There are other approaches too. For example, heroeswiki does a remarkably good job by simply having associated 'fan theory' pages where people can go fairly wild, and they hardly get any of it in the main pages.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:48, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
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| : I suppose we could attempt this approach, but we need to run it through the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]] to gain a larger consensus. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 18:53, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
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| == Isn't "Reboot" or "Deletion" Jumping the Gun? ==
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| Sorry all, this is my first participation in the discussion here, but I felt it kinda necessary. We still don't know the Final Five or whether this "activation" really happened. The music never was playing when Boomer was activated, for example. We don't even know whether Kara died or what was in the cockpit. All of this is only assumption based on what we've been shown so far. I, personally, do not think that any of the main characters shown were the Final Five -- all the five were on New Caprica and we have yet to really know everything that happened down there. I'd leave this up until the facts have been corroborated that they are Cylons. Just my two bits, I'll quiet down now.--[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 15:36, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :The producers have confirmed that they are Cylons in interviews. And the music didn't necessarily "activate" them. The two are connected, but the music is just the reason why they realized that they are or might be Cylons. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :RDM said the 4 are. Kara, I dunno. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::Although I agree that in numerous sources we have all of the powers involved (Although Katee Sackhoff and RDM in interviews had said Starbuck was dead and not coming back when in reality she was returning) in the production of the show confirming that we know the identity of four of the final five I think it is premature to completely rid ourselves of this page. The page seems to be appropriately designed to allow for continued speculation on the Final Cylon. Once we know the identity of the last Cylon I would agree to the deletion of this page but since we still have one unknown I think we should keep this page as it is.--[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] 16:14, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :::We're only deleting ''this version'' of the article and restoring it with the version that's been worked on so far [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :RDM has consistently stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different than the "Significant Seven", and that Tyrol, Tigh, Anders and Foster were four of the Final Five. You have to remember that their activation is different from Boomer's activation in Season 1, in that they became aware that they were Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 16:59, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::But it flies in the face of other things he has said previously. This is a sure sign of us being misled. Like, for example, he said Caprica was the first Cylon to ever murder another Cylon. I mean, look at the characters. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, so perhaps deleting this is premature. This discussion is at least healthy to be having. --[[User:Tstevens20|Tstevens20]] 18:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :::It depends on how you define [[Wikipedia:murder|murder]]. [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] destroyed a basestar full of Cylons in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:46, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :::RDM's known to use retroactive continuity in the past, particularly if he believes the story would benefit from it. He's been guilty of this in ''Star Trek'', and he hasn't changed in that regard for the new BSG. To be honest, and as others (including Bradtem) have pointed out elsewhere, RDM only began running with the "Final Five" concept in Season 3 and it's painfully apparent that the four of the Final Five have been pulled out of his bum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:26, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
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| == Laura Roslin ==
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| As a complete n00b to this, I'd like to see reasons why Roslin can't be a Cylon here. I think that the final Cylon has to be a pretty major character simply for reasons of dramatic effect, so of the ones listed, I'd say only Starbuck and Baltar qualify on that criterion. {{unsigned|SSH}}
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| : This is per [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s comments in the Frak Party podcast than anything else. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :: But someone says there that RDM didn't know who the final cylon was, but RDM says he does now, implying it was a recent decision and probably after the planning of the end of season 3, so the choice of the four was a very different and earlier decision to that of the very last one. --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:46, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::: RDM saying he knows who the final Cylon is happened at roughly the same time as him saying Adama and Roslin weren't Cylons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :: I have not listened to the whole podcast, but I heard part where he said he ruled out Roslin and Adama, and that was referring to who the 4 revealed Cylons would be, not about who the 5th one is. Did he say it again at a later point in the podcast? If not, I count this as strong evidence against Adama and Roslin but not an absolute rule-out. He likes to equivocate on these things, remember. It could very well be that he said that Roslin would not make sense (as one of the 4) because she's already planned as the 5th, for example.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:20, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :::From the Sci Fi forums:
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| ::::QUOTE
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| :::::Do you already know who the fifth cylon of the final five is? If so, '''have you already left us some clues'''?
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| ::::Yes and '''yes'''.
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| ::::Ron
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| :::So not only does RDM already know, he also left clues in Season 3. This was posted March 26 2007 (the day after the finale aired). [http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/04/04/bsg-podcast-recap-battlestar-galactica-frak-party-qanda/ On TV Squad] we have:
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| ::::Posted Apr 4th 2007 3:49PM by Keith McDuffee
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| ::::(...)
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| ::::While we await Ron Moore's commentary podcast for Battlestar's season finale, we were treated '''yesterday''' to a Q&A podcast between Moore, his wife and several fans at a viewing party in Berkley, CA.
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| :::So the frak party podcast was released on April 3rd (one week after the finale), and that's the podcast in which he says (paraphrasing) "there were two people we didn't want to make Cylons: Roslin and Adama". He also says this when discussing his choices for the Fantastic Four. I think that pretty much rules out Roslin and Adama as Cylons, although if you're still not satisfied yet, you can of course always [[BW:OC|ask Brad]] to be sure.
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| --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 15:49, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::::His words are "We didn't want Eddie, that would rob something from the show, didn't want Mary." I will need to go back and transcribe the surrounding dialogue, because as I said, he likes to equivocate about surprises. (He says he never lied about Starbuck, only equivocated.) I just want all the folks who were sure beyond a doubt that Tigh was no Cylon to be careful when you think you're sure!--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :::::This exactly what I was getting at. Revealing Roslin as a cylon at that point would take something from the series, but having the revelation late in the possibly-final series would not... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:26, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::::::I'm working on transcribing the Q&A podcast, which I hope to complete over the course of next week. By then we'll have RDM's literal words and the context black on white (or white on black actually).--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 06:01, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
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| == Serpents Two and Ten ==
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| Might the Pythian prophecy referral to Serpents Two and Ten refer to those who planned the attack on the Tylium asteroid? Since this was Tigh and Lee, Tigh might be "number 2" or "number 10" and Lee would be the other one... --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 09:43, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :Nah, 2 and 10 means 2+10, 12. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:57, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::Are you sure that's all it means? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :The analysis for the episode is [[The Hand of God (RDM)|here]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:04, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::I've read it and it doesn't really answer my question --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 05:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :"Serpents Two and Ten" could refer either to the twelve serpents Roslin saw, or to the twelve Vipers in Strike Force Two attacking the Cylon base in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Those are (IMO) the most likely explanations. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 06:00, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
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| :It's "serpents ''numbering'' two and ten" if that helps. Thats just how you say numbers in olde-prophecy language really... [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:07, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::I don't doubt that ''sometimes'' it means twelve, I was just wondering if it had a double meaning. {{unsigned|SSH}}
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| :::To get back to your original theory, the identities of the final five (all five of them) were only decided on when Season 3 started to be written. Anything in Season 1 or 2 that looks like a reference to their Cylonness is coincidental. Although there are [[Talk:Final Five#Ironies and references|plenty]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 04:37, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
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| ::::It's still possible that some of those coincidences in the first two seasons influenced the later decision. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:54, 28 April 2007 (CDT)
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| == Another possible rule? ==
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| RDM said that there were clues left all through 3rd season as to who the final cylon was. Which implies that they were heavily present in the third season, or at least heavily mentioned. You can't leave clues about a character who never comes up.
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| This unfortunately doesn't rule out any of the most likely candidates, but I would still say that it's a valid point, especially considering that it's not hinged on any assumptions beyond what RDM said himself, and we really don't have much to go on.
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| Thoughts? -[[User:Waxwings|Waxwings]] 16:36, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
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| :Well, crap. I guess that rules out [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] after all... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:37, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
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| :What's your source for "clues left all through?" I just know the interview where he said yes, he had picked the final Cylon and yes there were clues. Not that they were widespread. Was there another interview?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:00, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
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| ::According to the [[Podcast:Frak Party Q and A|Frak Party podcast]] the decision was made while they were discussing the season 3 finale. I can't find the interview where it was stated that there's hints about the last Cylon, I believe that RDM only stated that there are hints in the third season, without saying anything about their frequency. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:29, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
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| :::Oh, well then I guess I'm not as clever as I though. =/ I guess I was remembering wrong. It still does rule out characters who didn't appear at all third season, but I don't suppose that's much help. --[[User:Waxwings|Waxwings]] 18:53, 22 May 2007 (CDT)
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| == Deletion status ==
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| This article is still tagged as a deletion candidate. I think it's been reworked enough by now too warrant a keep. The Season 3 cliffhanger notice is probably outdated as well. What's the sitrep on reworking this article? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 04:46, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
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| :Yeah, the deletion tag can be removed. But the Season 3 notice is still valid, since the cliffhanger hasn't been resolved. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:24, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
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| ::True. I'll do a major cleanup on this one later tonight. The Starbuck section is a mess, and the Dualla section is not yet Final Five-aware. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup>
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| :::I've looked at it again, and the cleanup tag itself is indeed unnecessary after the cleanup. But the content of the article is still highly speculative due to the uncertain natures of "Crossroads". So a general note about that would be useful. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:02, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
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| == Cleanup ==
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| I have done a [{{fullurl:Humanoid Cylon speculation|diff=125476&oldid=120079}} major cleanup] on this article, which included:
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| * Slightly rewording the qualifiers for suspicion | |
| * Putting the qualifiers in subsections | |
| * Severely rewording and concising the sections about Starbuck and Baltar. All pre-Torn and pre-XR2 references are gone. | |
| * Scrapping all other sections (Dualla, Gaeta, Seelix and Lampkin) entirely (for now), as there don't really seem like good suspects to me post-XR2. You are free to re-add these sections if you have evidence supporting their suspicion. The old version of the article can be found [{{fullurl:Humanoid Cylon speculation|oldid=120079}} here].
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| As I've written (and rewritten) entire paragraphs here (something I very rarely do), I recommend that [[User:Spencerian|someone]] someone take a good look at this cleanup of mine and tweak it where necessary. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 13:55, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
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| == "Death" qualifier ==
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| I find the "Death" section under "Needed Qualifiers" to be rather confusing. It starts out by claiming that only humanoid Cylons can return from the dead, which is rather a dubious claim considering Starbuck's return; it's far from certain that she is the final Cylon. It also claims that no dead character could possibly return to the show as the final Cylon, yet I don't see why this would be true at all. In fact, on the [[Humanoid_Cylon_speculation/Reboot|Reboot]] version of this page, both characters listed are dead characters. It also references [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]], but that article doesn't address the issue at all, or even list any "dead" characters as eliminated from suspicion.
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| Since Starbuck's return applies only to her very special case, it would make more sense just to describe her return as a possible indication that she is a Cylon, and remove the section entirely.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 15:29, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
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| :We can only go, when no other data is available, on what we know. The reboot page is filled with some specious arguments, some use unaired information, such as on [[Joseph Adama]], that are fanwanking since ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' is unlikely to air (per [[Ron D. Moore]]'s wife). The logic that the original page gives is, "If a Cylon, they can return." The reboot article also revives [[Helena Cain]], although no such revival is taking place. The special episode ''[[Razor]]'' takes place in the ''past'', and this article assumes she returns by surprise, which no episode information supports; by that logic, ''any dead human character'' could return. Why would Cain be so special?
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| :I apologize for the confusion, Hylas. It's important that Battlestar Wiki never becomes a [[BW:CJ|source unto itself]], especially when it comes to the allowed, sourced original research we call here "[[BW:CJ#Derived Content|derived content]]" (which is the reason this article exists). I have not noted the content of this article before, else I would have made issue of it since myself and other [[BW:AN|administrators]] here are responsible for insuring articles stay sourced and (not or) plausible. I will be marking this article for major cleanup and striking the information that is not germane, replacing it with what is known, officially, and exploring the clues that Ron Moore has given in the series as to the identity of the last Cylon. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:00, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
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| ::It's the importance of sourced researched that forms the foundation of my objections to the section. As it is currently written, the section is specious, self-contradictory, and contains two significant unsourced claims:
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| ::*''As only a humanoid Cylon can "return" from the dead...'' - We don't know that this is true. (If it were, it would imply Starbuck must be the final Cylon.)
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| ::*''...any human character that dies is instantly disqualified from suspicion.'' - This conclusion does not follow in any logical manner from the first half of the sentence. On what basis can we categorically rule out the possibility of a dead character returning? While there is certianly no reason to expect that Cain, Joseph Adama, Elosha, or any other dead character ''will'' return as the final cylon, we have absolutely no basis for saying that it absolutely ''won't'' happen.
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| ::If we remove the problematic first sentence, we are left with a statement that a character returning from the dead might possibly be a Cylon, which really doesn't say anything, and contradicts claim made in the first part of the first sentence. The implications of Starbuck's return from apparent death can be discussed in the section relating specifically to her.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 19:20, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
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| :::Saying that someone returning from the dead greatly increases their odds to be the last Cylon sounds good to me. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]<sup>([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]])</sup> 02:19, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
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