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| :''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.] | | {{Template:Archive-bot |
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| ==Major Concision==
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| I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.
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| As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.
| | == You Will Know the Truth == |
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| I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain. | | I found a [http://jamesjacob77.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-is-final-cylon_29.html blog post] that links to [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/ this page on scifi.com]. They've also got a [http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2319583&st=0 forum thread] on it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC) |
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| Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)
| | == [[Zak Adama]]? == |
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| ==Interesting Info==
| | It's possible that Zak Adama is the final Cylon. The main reason I say this is because of [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s line in [[Flesh and Bone]]: "Adama is a Cylon." I don't think that it's William Adama, Apollo, or by extension Dualla. Is this viable enough for inclusion in the article? --[[User:JemHadar359|JemHadar359]] 05:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
| | :In this article on SyFy Portal[http://www.syfyportal.com/news425609.html], Michael Hinman claims that they have received confirmation of the identity of the final Cylon from multiple sources, and claims that the final Cylon is one of five characters listed in the article. Zak Adama is not on the list. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| {| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
| | : As I said before—and forgive me for soundin' like a broken record—but this article will be dead in its present (and the ColdBoot form) before the season ends anyway. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| ! {{spoilerplate}}
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| | id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character | |
| |}
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| My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
| | == Just a feeling. . . == |
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| :That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
| | that the final cylon will be someone that there's been no speculation about. Someone right out of left field. Personally, I'd like to think it's. . . Romo Lampkin. [[User:Centurion 51773|Centurion 51773]] 16:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC) |
| :Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
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| ::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
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| :Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
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| Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
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| == Kacey's Mother == | | == What about Number Seven? == |
| Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)
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| == Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
| | Do we have any information about the existence or nonexistence of Number Seven? In many interviews and articles, it has been stated that the Final Five don't have model numbers, so it couldn't be any of them. Has the issue of Number Seven been addressed in any interviews? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
| | : Not yet you don't. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | :: Since the Final Five are actually older, Seven must have been a failed model. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| :Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
| | == Archiving rather than deleting == |
| ::Here's a concisement of my points:
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| Points against him
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| 1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.
| | I can't say I'll miss all the fanwanking we did on this page and its sisters, but I think it'll be a hoot to leave these pages as of Ellen Tigh's reveal, locked with a note about the relative history of how contributors jerked themselves around trying to formulate a logic for the last Cylons. The main articles would be protected as well as the talk pages for people to smile and laugh at (especially the producers and writers who probably made ''sure'' we were wrong! ;) Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | :Sure, archive it. Though I will point out that if you read the [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/ColdBoot]] replacement that I started for it 6 months ago, it would in fact have led the reader to probably pick Ellen. Not sure why my efforts to get it live never amounted to anyting, but "nyah, nyah, I told you so..." :-) So archive that too. --[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 09:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | ::I'd say you'd get dibs on that prediction, Brad. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
| Not Points against him
| | ***Ellen was on a LOT of shortlists. Her mysterious survival, and then Saul being a Cylon... [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 20:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| 1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.
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| 2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.
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| 3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.
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| 4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.
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| 5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.
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| 6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.
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| 7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.
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| 8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.
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| That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.
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| Points for him
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| 1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.
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| 2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.
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| 3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?
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| 4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.
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| 5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.
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| 6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)
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| So that's
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| 1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
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| 8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
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| 6 points that he's not a Cylon
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| I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT) | |
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| :Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:
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| :''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
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| ::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.
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| :''Not Points against him''
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| :''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''
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| ::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.
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| :''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''
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| ::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.
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| :''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''
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| ::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.
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| :''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''
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| ::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.
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| :''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''
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| ::I agree, not a good argument.
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| :''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''
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| ::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.
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| :''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''
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| ::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.
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| :''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''
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| ::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.
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| :The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.
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| :It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
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| :--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
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| ::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.
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| To the points:
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| 1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?
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| 2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.
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| 4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?
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| 6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.
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| 8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.
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| You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.
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| Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.
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| You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.
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| :I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
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| ::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)
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| ::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST) | |
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| == Anders Speculation ==
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| While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}
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| == "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==
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| At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.
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| At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
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| ::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
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| ::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
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| :This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
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| ::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
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| ::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)
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| == Character Elimination. ==
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| I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.
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| At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.
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| :I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
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| ::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
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| :::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
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| ::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
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| :::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
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| ::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.
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| == Tory Foster ==
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| * I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)
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| :The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)
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| == Recent Rollback ==
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| I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)
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| == Galen and Cally Tyrol ==
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| Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).
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| Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).
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| Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.
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| Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).
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| I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.
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| --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)
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| :Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)
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| == Kara Thrace, Renewed ==
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| I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST) | |
| :Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
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| ::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
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| :::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
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| ::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
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| :::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST) | |
| ::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
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| ::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
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| == Tory Foster ==
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| See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
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| :''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
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| Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.
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| :''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
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| Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.
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| Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)
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| :I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
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| ::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)
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| == Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==
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| Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
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| (Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)
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| The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.
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| However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.
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| What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.
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| As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.
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| However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar.
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| :The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)
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| :The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)
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