Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3: Difference between revisions

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Isn't Cally referred to as a Specialist at some point? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:32, 29 August 2005 (EDT)
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| items = {{archive-item|1|Specialist Cally}} {{archive-item|1|Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial}} {{archive-item|1|How Many Admirals}} {{archive-item|1|Insignia}} {{archive-item|1|Tyrol & Hadrian}} {{archive-item|1|"Gunny"}} {{archive-item|1|Second Chart}} {{archive-item|1| Back to Officer Ranks...}} {{archive-item|1|Piping}} {{archive-item|1|Colorization|end=Y}}
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{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 2
| number = 2
| items = {{archive-item|2|Abbreviations}} {{archive-item|2|Rank Pins}} {{archive-item|2|General update of the page}} {{archive-item|2|Gold Bars}} {{archive-item|2|Assumptions}} {{archive-item|2|USAF?}} {{archive-item|2|Commander equals more to USN Captain, my argument}} {{archive-item|2|Idea for updated comparison list}} {{archive-item|2|Impressive Page, 1 Nitpick about dense chart|end=Y}}
|}}


Definitely. There's a time when the Chief tells the "Specialist" to go do something. -QuintusCinna.
__TOC__


Well, that just fracks up the whole thing then. Not only do we have Cally in the wrong place and we're missing a rank, but it's an Army/Air Force rank for a Fleet member. :( (On the plus side, Specialists are E-4s though IIRC.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:38, 29 August 2005 (EDT)
== Number ==


Let's be open with the Chief's use of "specialist". It might have been relative to her MOS, though I doubt it. Such as tech specialist, deck specialist, things of that sort.  In the military we often called them specialists too, though I do believe, just like you, that the chief was meaning it in the context of rank. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]
Shouldn't Commander be listed as O-7 and Rear Admiral as O-8? Not even getting into the debate over the officer/flag officer status of the Commander rank (although it could go either way (the Colonial forces could have seven officer ranks)), but why is it listed as N/A? It's clearly higher than Colonel, which is O-6. --[[User:Kevin W.|Kevin W.]] 21:05, 26 November 2006 (CST)
:The numbers correspond with the US ranks, not the BSG ranks. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:13, 27 November 2006 (CST)


== PO3 ==


==Abbreviations==
I understand the note about Venner, since PO3 and Cpl are equivalent, but the page itself does quote RDM who says that there is no PO3 grade. How can the page be modified to show this? --[[User:Kevin W.|<b><span style="font-variant:small-caps;color: #006400">Kevin W.</span></b>]]<sup>&bull;[[User talk:Kevin W.|<span style="color: #DC143C ">So say we all</span>]]</sup> 18:27, 17 December 2006 (CST)
Here is the list of abbreviations I wrote for the ranks here. The enlisted ranks for Marines are still a little rough though, the "all caps" ranks are in the US Army style, others use lower case, eg Master Sergeant: MSG, MSgt.


Officer<br/>
:Mhh, you're right. Though I don't consider that one blog entry as the very last word on it. Ideas might have changed a bit by now. Who knows.
O-11 Fleet Admiral No abbrev., FAdm could work<br/>
:Anyways, the list incluces PO3 mainly for the sake of completion I guess. It does say that some aspects of the table are speculative and that was always ok. You could add a footnote, like done for all other annotations. Then the explination shows up under "references". --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
O-10 Admiral Adm<br/>
O-9 Vice Admiral VAdm<br/>
O-8 Rear Admiral RAdm<br/>
O-7 Commander Cdr<br/>
O-6 Colonel Col<br/>
O-5 Major Maj<br/>
O-4 Captain Capt<br/>
O-3 Lieutenant Lt<br/>
O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade LtJG<br/>
O-1 Ensign Ens<br/>


== New information ==


Enlisted<br/>
There's an article that is a few months old on galactica.tv about the pins and symbols of the uniforms [http://www.galactica.tv/battlestar-galactica-2003---news/rank-insignia-and-symbolism-analysis-for-battlestar-galactica-2003-update.html here]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 08:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer MCPO<br/>
:The new information is really the tiny details that are available from of the pins. Our insignia pictures are from that very same rank chart, so the information is already reflected, except for the narrower Lt.j.g. pin. I can update that later. We just have drawings instead of photographs which is somewhat cleaner however. Maybe the great photo of the Commander pin could be included somehow? (like "more images").
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer SCPO<br/>
:Maybe the information on the other uniform devices could be put on [[Uniforms (RDM)]] though. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:10, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
E-7 Chief Petty Officer CPO<br/>
:: Sounds good. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 09:30, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class PO1<br/>
E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class PO2<br/>
E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class PO3<br/>
E-3 Crewman CN (based on US Navy Seaman SN)<br/>
E-2 Crewman Apprentice CA ("")<br/>
E-1 Crewman Recruit CR ("")<br/>


== Recent round of edits ==


Marine<br/>
I got caught up in this again. If I come off as harsh or all to superior, I'm really sorry, but I think this page is pretty good as it is. And all the rest is really pretty nitpicky.
E-9 Sergeant Major SGM<br/>
E-8 Senior Master Sergeant/Master Sergeant SMSgt/MSG<br/>
E-7 Master Sergeant/Sergeant 1st Class MSG/SFC<br/>
E-6 Staff Sergeant SSG<br/>
E-5 Sergeant SGT<br/>
E-4 Corporal CPL<br/>
E-3 Private 1st Class PFC<br/>
E-2 Private 2nd Class PV2<br/>
E-1 Private Recruit PVR<br/>
--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:33, 14 September 2005 (EDT)


: I went ahead and formatted your post, Talos, so that it was easier to read. I don't think I broke anything, did I? Anyway, I think the all-caps ranks look loud. I know that's kind of an artifact of the internet, but still... I'd rather just cap the first letter of a word from an abbreviation. Thus "PFC" is fine because each of those are the first letter of a word. On the other hand, I'd rather "Sgt." than "SGT". Also, "Cpt." and "Cmdr." are more intuitive to me, but I don't know if I made those up or ''where'' they came from. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:03, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
I think it comes down to to different approaches:
::Thanks for the formatting, that's how it was whem I typed it in notepad. I see how that works now. Like I said, the reason they are all caps is that it is based on the Army enlisted structure. I didn't go with the Marine Corps structure because it's missing the two ranks unique to the MC, Lance Corporal and Gunnery Sergeant. Here is a link about the US Military ranks: [http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html]. There is a link on top to the enlisted ranks. What is interesting is the way the US Navy O-6 rank's head is turned compared to the others. Also, Capt and Cdr are how the USN abbreviates Captain and Commander. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:00, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
#That the whole comparison to modern militaries (specifically the US Navy) is overdone.
:::I wanted to add something else, the CAPS are only used in forms, charts, etc. When written with the name it is normal case, so Hadrian,... Rank: SGT, but ...Sgt. Hadrian. I can't believe I forgot this. I must be slipping. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
#Some people seem to be more interested having a close to perfect comparison. Nothing wrong with that.  


== Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial ==
Personally, I'm clearly in camp 1. Sure there are many parallels. But it's not exactly the same. So this page shouldn't be forced to do something that just isn't there. And in the last major overhauls I tried to excise many of the unnecessary comparisons and make more BSG arguments for things. As it stands, we have reasonable good evidence (sometimes conjectural) that commander more closely resembles a modern captain. Like it doesn't seem to be considered a flag rank; and Roslin also seems to imply that she sees Adama as captain in "Resurrection Ship, Part II". The rest is just made fit as best as possible. Putting Lt. opposed to Lt. make most sense, and so that leaves one rank free. It's not all that clear, but it's there.


: ''Following was moved from [[User talk:Joe.Beaudoin]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 21:45, 17 October 2005 (EDT).''
So how do other people feel about this? Not so much about the details, but the whole approach of the article. Is the US Navy thing really that important? Should the article be more about BSG? Should we maybe just ditch the comparison if it's so troublesome and not perfect anyways? I think we can keep it, but it just needs to be clear that it's not supposed to be 1:1. I updated the introduction further to try to reflect that. Maybe I'm just too invested here, because I made a lot substantial edits to it, but I also don't like if people just change substantial things, when we had a sort-of consensus about it.


Noticed something while browsing and thought I might mention it...
To the people who made those edits: I know you are new. I know that you haven't read everything. And I really don't want to seem overly harsh to you. That's why I'm trying to explain and discuss this here. :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:44, 22 August 2007 (CDT)


On the page for Military Ranks (RDM), the supposition is that the rank of Commander (i.e. Cdr. Adama) is equivalent to a US Navy Rear Admiral. In my extensive reading, I have found that there are a few reasons why Commander is not equal to a Rear Admiral or Commodore.
== Why not just scrap the US Naval Rank column ==


Battlestar Groups are roughly analogous to Carrier Battle Groups, the current major organizational format for the US Navy. CBGs are commanded as an entire body by a Rear Admiral Lower Half, while the carrier itself is commanded by a Captain (O-6). It is possible that, while the vessel was in lay-up at the Scorpion Ship Yards, the Pegasus was part of a functioning BSG. This would explain why Adm. Nelena Cain is in command of the Pegasus. Meanwhile, the Galactica was quite alone at the beginning of the mini-series, and on the verge of decommissioning and conversion. Adama's rank could be considered analogous to an O-6 since the Rear Admiral LH in charge of BSG-75 would have moved to another BSG while Commander (Captain) Adama took the Galactica into retirement. In a footnote in an earlier draft of the page, it was stated that since Adama had the authority to assume command of the fleet (Miniseries), he would have to carry flag rank. This was likely a plot device, and it was never necessary to justify it, since no other Colonial Fleet vessel survived (excepting Pegasus, which was most likely already gone). In the modern US Navy, it would be highly improbable for the Admiral in charge of a CBG to assume command of the entire Navy.
Absent anything from Ron Moore or the writer's bible, it's all speculation and guesstimation. The only salient comparisons within the RDM Galactica universe would be Fleet vs. Marines. The "Official Statement" is self-explanatory. And like a lot of good fiction, sometimes it's best to leave some details to the individual's own imagination ... {{unsigned|Fredmdbud}}


S. Price
:Yeah, I'm just about ready do that. We can also keep it, but people just have to realize that it won't fit perfectly. It's a rough guideline, but nothing more. I've inserted two paragraphs now that point that out, without actually hitting the reader of the head.
:That whole part is really from the very first version of this article, that was actually more about finding arguments for that comparison table than documenting the BSG universe. Sure you can make a table that lines all up 1:1, but after some discussion most people felt that there are more points to compare the BSG rank of commander to a real world captain, and the rest is built around that. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 04:38, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


:I expect this would be more useful on [[Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)]] than on Joe's talk page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:24, 17 October 2005 (EDT)
::My only concern with deleting it is that it's the type of thing that might get periodically re-added by passers-by. I'd advise some note on the article to head that off, but I have doubts as to whether that would be heeded. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:55, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
:::True. And while it's not that important, there is some merit to the comparison. It shouldn't be taken ''too'' seriously (pot.kettle.black. ;)), but some people are probably interested to know where certain ranks fall. In retrospect I realize that while there were explanations for certain ranks, there was no explanation for the overall structure. That was an oversight that is hopefully corrected now. We can't expect people to read long arguments on the talk pages to understand how some things are decided, and parts of this article were just presented "as is" without clarification. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:27, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


==How Many Admirals==
==Room for other ranks?==


Although Nagala and Cain are both referred to as simply "admiral", I don't think that's presents strong evidence for them all being of the same rank, distinguished only by seniority. In the real world, both a one-star and four-star Admiral are referred to as simply "Admiral", unless a precise distinction must be made - not the case in the heat of combat, when Nagala's identity and rank would have been quite well known anyway. Furthermore, RDM's comment that Cain was only one promotion up from Commander strongly indicates that there were additional ranks above her.
It is hard to beleive that the ranks shown thus far are the only ones. There would logically be something like Midshipman for officer trainees and Lieutenant-Colonel.  If so, the Midshipman grad would be easy to figure out (a white diamond), though Lt. Col would be a little more difficult, given the differences between the Colonel and Major insignia.  Just a thought...  [[User:Expatkiwi|Expatkiwi]] 16:58, 27 December 2007 (PST)
: True. However, we go with ranks that we've either seen or heard on screen or via behind-the-scenes sources. We don't really speculate on any "missing" ranks, since that falls under "[[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki &mdash; ''New'']</sup> 19:05, 27 December 2007 (CST)


The methodology of this page to date has been to identify BSG universe ranks with their (rough) NATO-equivalents. This seems sensible to me, since no precise overview of the BSG rank system has been given yet, and it makes sense to evaluate new information with regard to an existing military structure with which the show's creators are familiar. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:39, 7 December 2005 (EST)
==Specialist classes==
IMO the specialist class ranks from the [[Flight of the Phoenix]] and [[Revelations]] credits should be considered official unless they are refuted by a more recent official source. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:What specialist class ranks are you referring to?-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 04:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:::The credits list Figurski as "Specialist 3rd class". So, there appear to be at least 3 subdivisions here. But it's not that clear how they should be split up. We also only have a single rank insignia for specialist. I'll add a footnote for now, as it should be noted. It should probably be included into the table, but the question is how. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


::I agree.  I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders.  I don't know how common inter-fleet operations would be, but there would be a lot more friction if equal ranked admirals were issuing orders to each other.  While a twelve-admiral "quorum of twelve" would be a very democratic and fair sounding concept, military thinking tends to prefer hierarchy to committee, especially in cases where decision need to be made quickly.  I wonder if Cain's insignia might provide any insight into the ranks (and whether there might be higher ones). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)
== RDM's list ==


We never see Cain referred to as a "rear admiral" either. Looking at the insignia on the page, there's only one Admiral insignia anyway—there is absolutely  no evidence anywhere that rear admirals and vice admirals even exist in Battlestar Galactica. Moore himself only mentions one grade of "admiral" in his blog entry. So essentially what's happening is that people are making things up and pretending it's in the canon just to make Colonial Fleet correspond perfectly with the US Navy.  
Seeing the edits on the page, I need to chime in here. RDM's list, which was published over three years ago, is not the definitive list and we should not be a slave to it. There have been introductions of new ranks since then, like Lt. Colonel and Rear Admiral, that are not included on his list. Conspicuously, he does not include "Warrant Officer" (which there is a pin for, and these are the guys in the BG with the beige BDUs), in addition to Private (like [[Stewart Jaffee]]). I'll try to post the definitive list in a few weeks, but the edits that Serenity did are the most accurate to date with the presently available information I have. Attempts to revert them will probably resort in the page being locked, just so you know, since I don't want a needless edit war to break out. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, just what I was thinking. I don't get why this should be ''the'' definite list. It's a fine basis, but it's old and things have been added since then. And this page has always been speculative. In the past far more so than now. It's not like the speculative ranks aren't marked. I've included an (s) for those two ranks now, in addition to the footnotes. I wouldn't just add all kinds of speculation just because it sounds nice, but it's marked clearly enough. If people would rather have something more "official" they are free to skip those lines. It just doesn't make much sense to skip vice admiral for no reason, when rear admiral and admiral have been established, given that the ranks more or less follow real-world examples otherwise. And it's been on the list for one or two years without anyone really objecting.
:In general my reverts here, have also been about style. Mainly odd capitalization. Things like "commissioned officer" just aren't capitalized (unless in the headers of the table and such). But neither are ranks. It's "Johnson is a lieutenant", but "Tell Lieutenant Johnson". That's also [[w:Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#Military_terms|what Wikipedia uses]], though they are a bit inconsistent with it. Other sources like [http://www.hjf.org/style_guide/style.html#Titles this], [http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/111201.htm this] or [http://stylemanual.ngs.org/Intranet/styleman.nsf/2050e60b02a59c46852566510067477d/2fa90f9b71e105f6852566880054c234?OpenDocument this] also make this clear. I've also noted that people try to capitalize "president" and "vice president" on every occasion. The same rules usually apply there unless it's the full title of the office like "President of the Twelve Colonies"-- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:: All true. By the way, I'd like to get rid of the "Junior Grade"/"Senior Grade" stuff and simply go with "Junior Lieutenant" and "Senior Lieutenant", since this is what they identify these ranks by behind the scenes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:::On screen both are used though (though in props mostly junior lieutenant). They seem to exist side by side. There is a footnote about it, actually (#7). Maybe that could be changed to make it clearer, or switched around. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:::The only real mentions of "Lieutenant Junior Grade" are in the Miniseries, and that was quickly dropped, along with a few other things that didn't quite work from the miniseries. (Such as the "Blade Runner" guns from the Miniseries, which weren't built to last anyway and were just poorly designed.) But I see your point. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


In response to "I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders.", the fact is, the real military uses that hierarchy consciously. For instance, the seven US generals and admirals promoted to five star rank in 1944 were deliberately promoted on consecutive days—Leahy in the 15th, Marshall on the 16th, King on the 17th, MacArthur on the 18th, Nimitz on the 19th, Eisenhower on the 20th, and Arnold on the 21st of December—to allow for such a hierarchy.
== Initial new information ==


More importantly, Colonial Fleet was probably a small and shrinking military force anyway, largely because they had nothing to do—the colonies were united and there was no foreign threat for over 40 years. Furthermore, there can't have possibly been that many ships in the fleet anyway, if Galactica and Pegasus were the only survivors. Four grades of admiral exist are necessary when you're the United States Navy and you have 300 ships. We have no evidence Colonial Fleet was that large. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:17, 7 December 2005 (EST)
This is by no means the complete list of ranks, but it's based off the pin-ordering sheet I have in front of me. (No, I can't scan it. Sorry.)


:1.) I can't speak for the source on those insignia myself - did [[User:Winterfell]] every say where he found them?
From highest to lowest (these are the "green fill" verisons):


:2.) We know there were at least 120 battlestars, next to the US Navy's 12 aircraft carriers, so I have difficulty with that argument.
* Crew Master Chief
::At which point? The Cylon war was 40 years ago. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:56, 7 December 2005 (EST)
* Crew Senior Chief (this is what Tyrol wears before his demotion for being an ass)
:::At the time of the Cylon Attack. When Adama tells Starbuck that 30 battlestars have been destroyed, she replies in shock that "that's a quarter of the fleet!". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 7 December 2005 (EST)
* Sergeant 1st Class (basically the Junior Lieutenant, except the fill is green, not gold).
::::OK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:36, 7 December 2005 (EST)
* Crew Sergeant (like crew specialist, but has another border—with no breaks—between the outside border and the diamond)
* Crew Specialist
* Crewman (which is the same pin as the "Private" that Jaffee wears)
* Crewman Apprentice


:3.) I don't think we're pretending anything is in Canon here, and if it looks that way to you, I don't mind making a clearer distinction. The fact is simply that we don't know much about the Colonial Navy, and that comparing the ranks observed on the show to the ranks of a well-documented force is an instructive exercise. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)
The gold versions:


::Your clarifications look good to me, Philwelch. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 7 December 2005 (EST)
* Commander
I don't know if it means anything but in Pegasus, the DRADIS screen after they identify the Pegasus has two stars next to the Peggie's symbol. Maybe she's a two-star admiral. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:17, 25 December 2005 (EST)
* Colonel
:Here's what I mean. Note the stars (they are more blob-like here but are stars) next to the Pegasus on the right and how the identically targeted Galactica has none. Also, note that the Pegasus can ID the Gal's Vipers but the Galactica doesn't show the four Pegasus Viper's callsigns. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:54, 28 December 2005 (EST)
* Warrant Officer (worn by those in the beige BDUs, it's similar to the Crew Master Chief, itself a cross between the Lt. Col and Crew Senior Chief pips)
[[Image:GalPegDradis.JPG|thumb|DRADIS displays, Galactica and Pegasus ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]])]]
* Lt. Colonel (these are the pins that Dualla was wearing in "LDYB" Pt. II
::Veering off topic, but Kat is apparently flying "Viper 24" in that scene. Have we seen two-digit numbers used for Vipers elsewhere? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 28 December 2005 (EST)
* Major
:::Not that I know of. I was wondering about this earlier, maybe the two digit number is shorthand eg. her Viper is 5624NC or something. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:34, 28 December 2005 (EST)
* Captain
* Senior Lieutenant
* Junior Lieutenant


As we've already determined earlier, the "ensign" rank pin does not exist.


:: I'm assuming this is a moot point here now, but I'll chime in anyway. Of the 120 or so Battlestars that were commissioned at the time of the attacks on the colonies, I'd say we're missing some information to make an educated guess as to who commands what. Starbuck mentioned 'fleet', so I'm working under the assumption that the word 'Battlestar' is used to describe a military ship in general, rather than a specific type of ship (Sort of like the USS in US Navy ships) . That said, I'm guessing there are also more than two classes of Battlestar (Mercury class and whatever class Galactica belongs to can't be the only two),and they're somehow organized into a type of numbered fleet command structure. An Admiral would command the numbered fleet, Commanders would command the smaller support craft and so on down the line. Above the numbered fleets is someone like Admiral Nagala from the mini, who commands the ENTIRE fleet and directly supervises the numbered fleet admirals. In Galactica's case, she was being prepared for decommissioning anyway, so she didn't fall under a numbered fleet, instead reporting directly to Fleet Headquarters on Picon in the mini. I know it's a bit long winded, but hopefully that sort of explains why there aren't 120 or so admirals in the fleet running around giving orders...:) [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:07, 18 January 2006 (EST)
I'm working on finding about the Admiral pins.  


::: I think you're misunderstanding things. A battlestar ''is'' a type of ship. It's like saying  destroyer, or aircraft carrier, though, so there can be different classes of battlestar. The name comes from what role it's intended to play in combat (a combination, actually, but a carrier being one of those roles). I believe our understanding is that a Battlestar Group (BSG) was a battlestar and its accompanying support fleet, very similar to the US Navy's Carrier Groups. So an admiral would probably actually be in charge of a few BSGs (with a Commander like Adama being in charge of his BSG alone) and you might have an admiral above that controling a group of lower admirals (think CINCLANT or CINCPAC) and you might not... Then you've got Nagala at the top telling ''everyone'' what to do. Anyway... a battlestar is not just any combat ship, a BSG is not a group of battlestars (but a group of ships with a battlestar in lead), and, no, all my ranting doesn't get us any closer or farther from the question of how many Admirals the COlonial Fleet had before the Attack. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:44, 18 January 2006 (EST)
Also, an interesting story about the flight wings that the pilots wear... the symbols in the middle resemble the Captain's rank pins. There's a reason for this. The pins were also supposed to echo the rank of the wearer, but this idea was abandoned during the production. I don't know why, but I'll lay my money on the fact that it had to do with cost. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 01:01, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


:::: I think you and I just both said the same thing! And I wholeheartedly agree, we're no closer to a solution...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:51, 18 January 2006 (EST)
:That actually fits pretty well with the current structure (aside from the names), but some of the enlisted ranks as they are now have been established in dialogue. For example, Dualla is called petty officer second class by Billy, and I think Tyrol is identified as chief petty officer as well. The term "petty officer" in general is also mentioned (for example by Adama when he demotes Tyrol). So that would screw things up a bit.
:As for warrant officer. Not everyone in beige BDUs can be a WO. Some of the Marines who have been identified with other ranks wear them as well, most notably Hadrian. It would probably be more accurate to say that in practice all WOs wear beige. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


==Insignia==
::The warrant-officers-in-khaki thing has always left me scratching my head ... why single out warrant officers with a different style uniform, but have the officers and enlisted wear the same color fatigues? For comparison's sake, in the US Navy, ranks of chief petty officer and above wear khaki service uniforms like officers (hence the term "khaki leadership"), making it easy to make the "chiefs-vs-indians" distinction in a crowd. Maybe it was easier (and cheaper) to "ret-con" the khakis as warrant officer uniforms and kind of sneak by on the collar insignia (which had little chance with a crowd like this :-)), rather than go through the cost and time of developing new insignia.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd advocate getting rid of the conjectural insignia. It would be nice if we could find actual screen captures to use instead of Winterfell's (admittedly nice looking) drawings, for credibility's sake. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:22, 11 December 2005 (EST)
:::There's that too, but it's fiction, so why not? But the other other points that speak against being all khakis = WOs. For example that the uniform is used a lot (there shouldn't be that many WOs from what I understand), is also used by Marine Sergeants (and others) and also worn by a lot of young crewmen. Warrant officers should generally be a bit older I think. It might have been thought of that way, but I don't think the wardrobe department really adheres to it closely. Not that I blame them. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


:The conjectural ones, yes. The ones that seem to correspond with screen captures we do have, I think it's safe to keep. Is there anyone here with HD captures of the episodes? If so that would help greatly. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:53, 11 December 2005 (EST)
I don't know, this list is a little confusing, it seems like it's a combination of marine and fleet ranks. When you get a chance Joe, I'd like to say a side by side break down of rank equivalents, I have some other questions regarding this list but I'll hold them because I think a side-by-side might answer them.  Particularly because some of Joe's comments seem to contradict what we have known up to know.


::You know what I think? We should have both. I really appriciate the clarity of the illustrations. Let us have both, side-by-side, so that readers may verify the accuracy, but also clearly see what the insigniae are. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:12, 11 December 2005 (EST)
I'm sure you guys have all seen the graphical rank guide put out by somebody (I can't remember the name of the top of my head but I'd be interested both to see the next update and how the new information jibes with the current version. Does anybody know how to contact this guy?-- [[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 15:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


:::Speaking of this, Major on down in the officers insignia are very hard to see. Can we get versions with more contrast or better colors or something?--[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:25, 11 December 2005 (EST)
::You might be referring to Jim Stevenson's article on galactica.tv: http://www.galactica.tv/battlestar-galactica-2003---news/the-history-of-the-rank-insignia-chart-for-battlestar-galactica-2003.html
::IMO, I think his observations and analysis are about as speculative as the discussion in this wiki.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Fred, RDM and co. are following their own conventions; they don't have to mirror real-world conventions, at all, despite the wishes of some. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 04:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm just saying ... have there been any references, on-screen or in production notes, of "sr-lieutenant"?  Lieutenant and jr-lieutenant have been used in scripts and on props to-date, as far as I know ...-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 06:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Yes, numerous times. Where, pray tell, do you think I got the above list?  -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 15:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::::So any idea about the enlisted ranks that are missing but have been mentioned in ''dialogue'' (most notably "petty officer second class"). "Specialist" has been mentioned numerous times and is on the list, but PO2 is not on it. If that can't be resolved, it's not really much better than what we have now. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


==Tyrol & Hadrian==
I realize that Stevenson's model is just as much speculation as ours but I thought it might be helpful to coordinate with him so we can get a consistent image for the new rank insignia's we know know as well as give proposals for ranks that are now known to exist but for which ranks haven't been developed.  Right now the Lt. Col. image sticks out because it doesn't show the fringes colors like all the officers I have a version from his sheet that shows it only with white fringe, (at the time it had only been seen worn by Dualla). Also I think now that we know the the insignia for Apprentice/Private First Class, its easy to conclude that their is indeed an insignia for recruit/private because without one, the trend from Apprentice/PFC to Specialist/Corporal to PO2/Sergeant doesn't make sense.
Small point - Chief Tyrol and Sergeant Hadrian are assigned equivalent ranks in the table. During his arrest/detention and again during interview in Litmus the Chief puts great stress on calling Hadrian by her rank over and over, this always inplied to me that he considered himself above her in rank. Also if you watch it through on slow-mo zoomed in... (ok now i'm getting sad)... She has a "green diamond with a single stripe" and he has a "green diamond with single stripe and an arrowhead on each side" ie the ranks currently in the table as CPO for Tyrol and PO (of some grade) for Hadrian. - I didn't want to edit the main page as this is my first ever wiki experience. - Grible


:Thanks for your note, and your caution. Does anyone have screen captures of Tyrol & Hadrian's rank insignia? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:26, 29 January 2006 (EST)
While I'm at it I'd like to propose a new tentative ranks structure based on what new information we now have. Of course this is subject to change when Joe gets more info but I want to run what I've got by all of you and see if I'm missing something or have something confused.


*Flag Officer
**Admiral
**Rear Admiral
*Senior Commissioned Officer
**Commander
**Colonel
**Lieutenant Colonel
*Junior Commissioned Officer
**Major
**Captain
**Senior Lieutenant
**Junior Lieutenant
**Ensign
*Senior Enlisted (Non-Commissioned Officer)
**Master Chief Petty Officer/Sergeant-Major
**Senior Chief Petty Officer/Master Sergeant
**Chief Petty Officer/Gunnery Sergeant
**Petty Officer First Class/Sergeant First Class
**Petty Officer Second Class/Sergeant
*Junior Enlisted
**Specialist/Corporal
**Apprentice/Private First Class
**Recruit/Private


::I disagree:  listen and you'll see that he's saying like "It was ''the Sergeant'' that was responsible for that", etc. And because he was on trial, it's not like he'd be presumptuous enough to call her by name, but at the same time, he wanted to be condescending and shift the blame to her. As they've already stated on screen, Tyrol is the highest Non-Com Colonial Fleet officer, and Sergeant Hadrian is the highest-ranking Colonial Marine Non-Com; they've both got the highest Non-Com rank. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:32, 29 January 2006 (EST)
Also, I want to clarify two things with Joe:  First, it appears from something you wrote above that you believe Tyrol was a Senior Chief Petty Officer instead of just plain Chief.  Is that true? Second, are there supposed to be separate rank insignia for warrant officers or are they supposed to be simply identified by their uniform color.


I've got screen captures to support my point now, I must needs be go to work however, how do i get the captures to you?
Finally I'm kinda wondering if there are multiple grades of warrant officer like their are in the U.S. military.
Also, Just because Hadrian is the ranking Marine aboard Galactica doesn't mean she has to hold the highest rank, Galactica is short of Marines from the start. I would suggest that a ship on it's way to decommission only has the bare minimum of marines under an appropriatly ranked person (Hadrian) to do marine stuff (guard things etc) onboard. No one expects them to need Marines for boarding/landing parties or to defend the ship. Furthermore, Hadrian is the Master-at-Arms, she's the ships policeman. If Galactica had a full unit of marines chances are there would be commissioned marine officers and a complete command structure. I suggest she is a relativly low ranked NCO with a handful of marines to act as a security force aboard a ship about to leave the service, then look what happened... - Grible


[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 16:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


--No. "Sergeant" is the highest NCO rank, anything higher would be a commissioned officer. That's the same position Tyrol is in.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:54, 30 January 2006 (EST)
: I need to make something a bit clear here. Firstly, the costuming / props department has not made a new rank for every single specialist (whether that be SP1, SP2, SP3). Figurski wears the same pins that Cally does, for instance. Also, with regard to the Lt. Col. pins, one of the judges (the African one) from "Crossroads" wears these pins on his own uniform, though is not part of the Col. Military. So... when it comes to the accouterments of b.g. officers, they're not really anal about it. And speaking of the Lt. Col pins, there's at least one or two offers in the blue BDUs that wear them, simply because they're not enough pins to go around. (Or not enough on the truck, or whatever.)  


--yes and no, "Sergeant" used in conversation could mean any level of Sergeant. She could be anything from E4-E9 and still be legitimatly called Sergeant. Since I'm only (and how anal do i feel) suggesting she be bumped down to the PO grade she would still be a Sergeant just a lower ranked one.
: As for Tyrol, since there are other petty officers aboard (i.e. [[Basim]] and [[Peter Laird]]), it would make the most sense. In any event, he wears the pins.
Also... do Marines exist at all? Or is "Marine" a job title like "Machine Operator" or "Comms Tech"? 
the ranks being assigned Marine sounding names but there being no "Marine Corp" as such? Are we blinded by the need to make this fit the US system?
However the point is I've got Screen captures from Litmus that show her coller insig as being what this page has defined as PO (1st or 2nd) she's in the wrong place whatever the reasoning behind Marines.(my understanding of wiki isn't up to linking to the image but it's in the list called TyrolHadrianinsig.jpg) - Grible
:Here you go with the pic. It's not a matter of shoehorning the US Marine rank system. Marines have a seperate rank system, we have two examples PFC Kelso and Sergeant Hadrian. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:19, 30 January 2006 (EST) [[Image:TyrolHadrianInsig.jpg|thumb|right|Tyrol/Hadrian Rank Comparison]]
::Oh, and in Final Cut, during Kelso's interview, the text reads PFC Scott Kelso, CMCR which would be the Colonial Marine Corps Reserve. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:22, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::: [[Scott Kelso]] is displayed pretty clearly as being PFC (see his character pic). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::: I conceed on the existance of Marines! - Grible
:::::Thanks SV, I just got to that scene and was about to take a screenshot. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:31, 30 January 2006 (EST)


::::::You're arguing about changing the rank equivalence of characters, and you didn't even know that the [[Colonial Marine Corps]] existed?  Please read this link, it has more info than I can list here.  Officially, the [[Colonial Fleet]] ranks are as stated above Admiral, Commander...Lieutenant, Chief Petty Officer, etc. etc.  Also officially, RDM has stated that the Marines don't use this rank structure, but an entirely different one.  '''Comparing collar rank insignia is meaningless'''. Because they use an entirely separate rank structure, they almost certainly have different rank insignia.  We know that "Sergeant" is the highest Marine non-com rank, Commander Adama stated in that episode that Sergeant Hadrian, their Master-At-Arms, was the highest ranking Marine on the ship, and we've seen other Marines who were "Sergeant"'s so I think she's the highest rank of "Sergeant". The reason Tyrol acts like she outranks him is because she's the ''de facto'' MP (military police) leader aboard ''Galactica'', and has been given greater responsibilities as a result.  But they have equivalent rank.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:38, 30 January 2006 (EST)
: For the ranking system itself... it wasn't meant to be overly analyzed like what we're doing. As RDM indicated, it is derived from TOS—which I personally believe to be a serious mistake—so it was already FUBARed from the start. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 17:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


::::::Maybe Sgt. Hadrian is the highest-ranking Marine on the ship because they just didn't have any Staff Sgts/Gunnery Sgts/First Sgts/Sgt Majors. If Galactica is the equivalent of an aircraft carrier they would just have a small detachment of marines—most of the marines could be aboard "amphibious ships" instead. Incidentally, the Marines could be a part of the Fleet just as, say, the Royal Marines are part of the Royal Navy, or the US Marines used to be a part of the US Navy until 1947. Was there a Colonial Army? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:30, 30 January 2006 (EST)
: Just a nitpick and tidbit to chew on, take it for what it's worth ... there is no such thing as Sergeant First Class in the Marine Corps.  If you're aiming to align with PO1, that would be Staff Sergeant (SSG). The only sergeant ranks I can recall from dialogue in the episodes (not including credits, to which I never really paid attention) are the generic "sergeant" and "gunny", so conceivable room to justify SFC rather than SSG (which is an army equivalent of gunny & CPO). Such are the hazards of trying to maintain something resembling "canon" with a combination of speculation, extrapolation, and a writing staff that introduces contradictions and revisions, not to mentioning costuming (lol for effect) ...-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 21:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


I was dipping a toe about the colonial marines, my point was really that, did they have to be a seperate service? I've been slapped down, leave it be :)
:: Ugh, my use of the word "canon" gave me spine shivers, I hope things don't devolve into something "Richard Arnold"-esque (a ''Star Trek'' fandom spectactle/controversy/train-wreck, for those not familiar with the name ...)!-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 22:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


IMHO Tyrol acts like he out ranks her (which is borne out by the coller pins). Else he should call her Sir/Ma'am not repeatedly use her rank and be borderline insulting to her. As above just because she is the highest ranking marine on the ship doesn't make her the highest rank avalible.
== References ==
She is the Master-at-Arms even if she is equal in rank to the other sergeants, which I'm not arguing for (there are plenty of sergeant grades to go around), she would still be in charge.
The references currently aren't showing up. I've checked the page in K-Meleon and IE6. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
On a more fundamental point i would also suggest comparing collar rank insignia is the only meaningful way of establishing relative rank. There really wouldn't be much point in having it otherwise. For instance all of the branches of the US army forces use a unified collar ranking system to streamline relative ranks, isn't that the point? The coller pins used are the old army ones but everyone uses them. It makes no sense for a Navel LtCmdr to wear Oak leaves (not very naval) but it draws the link to Army/Air/Marine Majors, this is the point no? - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 17:37, 30 January 2006 (EST) (look at me learning wiki!)
:I tried it in IE7 and it doesn't work when I'm logged out. Logging in will display the references. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
: Frak. I'll try to fix that tonight. I think we may just need to update the extension... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


:At least in the US, enlisted are never called "sir", only commissioned officers. Notice how everyone calls Tyrol "Chief". Even in terms of officers, you can call an officer by his rank if he outranks you without offense—this happens all the time. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:38, 30 January 2006 (EST)
== Recent Updates ==


::In the following scene Socinus addresses Hadrian as Sir through-out - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 03:02, 31 January 2006 (EST)
As the freeze period has expired I decided to make some updates which I thought seemed appropriate.  In the interest of avoiding another edit war I'd like to elaborate a little on those changes which I think are most likely to be controversial.


:::Raw recruits (fresh out of boot) have the tendency to "sir" anything that moves. I guess it is better to throw in an extra "sir" than to miss one. The worst you'll usually get by "sir"ing an NCO is a gruff "Don't sir me, I work for a living." --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:47, 31 January 2006 (EST)
*I have once again removed the rank of Vice Admiral, I know this has been a sore point between me and some others but with lieutenant colonel, their are now ten confirmed officer ranks which already is starting to make the rank structure pretty top heavy especially given that in the U.S. Military there are usually ten officer ranks and nine enlisted ranks.  Currently we have ten confirmed officer ranks and only seven confirmed enlisted ranks (eight if you include senior chief petty officer which hasn't been proven).  I think it highly unlikely that there would be such a discrepency in the number of ranks between the two corps (officers v. enlisted).  I have left senior chief petty officer because I think it is at least possible that such a rank may exist, although I am by no means sold on it..
*As for the Marine Ranks:  The ranks of private, private first class, and sergeant major have already been established both as ranks and as to their position in the rank structure.  In addition, the ranks of Corporal, Sergeant and Gunnery Sergeant have been established as existing but their place in the structure hasn't been definitively established.  To fill out the gap between sergeant and gunnery sergeant (as well as to confirm the places of the other ranks that are as of yet unconfirmed as to position, I have relied on Joe's post indicating a partial rank listing.  In that posting he mentions both sergeant and sergeant first class as distinct ranks and also notes that sergeant first class shares the same insignia as petty officer first class. If we assume that this information is correct we then have enough information to definitively name and place all the marine enlisted ranks.  That is how I have derived the current structure.
*I also have removed marine "lieutenant" Terry Burrell from the officer example list since, as was already indicated on the page in a footnote, his  place in the rank structure is not definitively known.
*As noted in the footnotes, the reason for my changing the rank of deckhand also is derived from Joe's post. It's also partly inspired by my own personal belief that deckhand doesn't really sound like a rank. However as their is generally hostility to changes based only on personal inclinations (and perhaps rightly so), I have only changed it now based on the new information provided by Joe.


::::I agree with you, however since we arn't assuming this to function like our world (nods to Ricimer) i thought i'd mention it. It just seems to me to support my contention that Tyrol outranks Hadrian since he never Sir's her and Specialist Socinus, not a raw recruit?, does. However Ricimer is quite right and he could be panicing and Siring every thing that moves I suppose. - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 09:23, 31 January 2006 (EST)
I also have a couple questions:
*How is that some you are able to include brief comments in your history logs?
*How does one upload pictures?  I have a better version (though still not consistent with the others for the crewman/private first class insignia but I don't know how to post it.


 
[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 17:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
:We should in no way "assume" that their military functions like ours, that they have equivalent rank insignia between different branches of the military: we shouldn't ''assumme'' that they function like the US military in that respect. Further, the ENTIRE scene is really tainted: Hadrian is suspecious of him and prying, and Tyrol (regardless of whether he is addressing a superior officer, or whether he is not) is just really nervous that they'll find out about Boomer and his relationship, so his smokescreen is to be really agitated and throw questions back at Hadrian, or more importantly, trying to shift ''blame'' on Hadrian by saying that securing the hatch was ''her'' job.  This isn't a "normal" scene, and we should not base anything on it as a result.
:But basically, '''you have been "assuming" that calling her by her rank, "Sergeant" is somehow and insult, but we have seen nothing on screen to provide evidence for that'''.  How do we know that they're ''that much'' like our own military, that such a thing would also be copied.  Far too many assumptions. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:42, 30 January 2006 (EST)


: I think the serious mistake here is the mistake we made in earlier versions of this article. That mistake was to try to mirror or associate Colonial Military ranks to US (and other real-world) military ranks; obviously, since the Original Series rank structure was FUBARed to begin with, there could be no clear real-life association to be made.  So, yes, it may be top heavy... but we're here to report, not to make up facts or fanwank to explain things, which is what I'm starting to see here a bit, particularly with the brevet ranking notes.


:If anyone cares about my opinion: I think that, without any other evidence, we should assume the insignias represent equal ranks, as they do in practically all terrestrial militaries, and that therefore it would be prudent, without any other evidence, to assume that Hadrian is a Staff Sergeant. I don't see this as presenting a problem with regards to the events in Litmus or anything else. But: does anyone have any caps of insignias of any other Marines? Kelso or Venner, for example? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 19:18, 30 January 2006 (EST)
: Regarding your questions, the "summary" line in the editing form is where we note the brief comments in the history logs. To upload files, you need to go to the [[md:|Media Repository]] to upload your files. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 00:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


:: I concur. It makes complete sense to assume that the rank insigniae are the same across services. Otherwise, why have the top Sergeant rank look exactly like the insignia for a lesser Naval rank? That's just confusing. If they weren't meant to show equivalencies, I'd expect the insigniae to look quite different. However, unless we're ''certain'' that this is the correct insignia for Hadrian, I'm not sure we should go on it. It's very, very easy to mess up rank pips and all that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:32, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah, the deckhand thing makes sense. That always seemed a weird choice for a rank, as it also refers to mechanics and the like in general. As for Dualla's rank in LDYB. The simplest thing is to leave it at lieutenant and consider it a costuming mishap. It's the first time she appeared in an officer's uniform, which may explain it. The explanation about a brevet promotion may appear logical, but from what I can tell, the writers don't put that much thought into such trivial details. Every comment about Lee Adama, for example, makes it sound like they consider it to be a normal promotion. And his demotion to major is actually referred to explicitly in a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd-KJ2Jscko deleted scene] in "Collaborators", even if it's a bit jokingly. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


: I agree we shouldn't be assuming things based on the US militeary (a 9 grade enlisted/NCO structure in the first place...) I dragged the Naval coller pin thing into this to make the point Redwall made for me above. I take onboard that this is not a normal scene in the "court". However his switch in tone and phrasing on the hanger deck before does still suggest to me he is stressing her rank because he has that over her. The shifting the blame point is true and isn't affected, if anything by stressing she is lesser in rank he's trying to belittle/intimidate her which to me does tie in with his shift of blame. (It's to Hadrian's credit she doesn't bend!) - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 09:23, 31 January 2006 (EST)
== Updated Rank Chart based off of format established by Jim Stevenson ==


== "Gunny" ==
I'm sure all of you by now has seen the rank guide created by Jim Stevenson, in fact I'm pretty sure that's where almost all of the rank device images on the page come from.  Anyway it's been a year and a half since he last updated it and there have been several major updates, so I went ahead and updated it might self.  Would there be a problem with me posting it, and if so would people have a problem with me posting it in lieu of the current chart?


In Sacrifices, Starbuck addresses a Marine leader as "Gunny". This is an "affectionate" term for a Marine Gunnery Sergeant, who's equivalent in rank to a Navy Chief Petty Officer. The Gunny probably outranks Hadrian--maybe he's from the Pegasus. In any case, this is pretty definite proof that the rank of Gunnery Sergeant exists in the Colonial Marines. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:15, 10 February 2006 (EST)
[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 21:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 
:You should definitely ask him if he's ok with you updating and reworking it. He hasn't worked on it for some time, but it's still his design. This page credits him, but I also asked if I could cut the chart up like this. And actually creating a new version is another thing entirely. He might be fine with it, but you should ask.
 
:As for the change I made to your recent edits. That wasn't about the content, so much as the style. We already have an entire page of footnotes and such extensive notes aren't good to read IMO. Yeah, I've seen legal documents with one page for ''one'' footnote, but that doesn't mean it's such a good idea. Most of it is necessary here, but the stuff you added was very self-argumentative and could be shortened a lot. Basically it says that it's unclear why the decision was made, that there may be one or two in-universe reasons, but that there are also real-world reasons like an error or production realities. That's perfectly fine, but it's possible to say that in one or two sentences without adding five footnotes, that were frankly hard to read the way they were worded and structured. It took me a while to get what the actual argument was, and then I realized that a lot of it didn't really add to the point made, but just hid it behind verbosity. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 
::I would have asked him directly but I have no way of contacting him.  Also I apologize for the "verbosity," I have a very flowery writing style and to be quite honest couldn't simply anything to save my life, if anybody would like to try to do that I welcome the assistance.  However I do reserve the right to reinsert something if I believe something of value has been cut.[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 14:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 
::With the upcoming auction of BSG props, wouldn't now be an opportune time to replace the rank illustrations with images of actual production insignia?  It would also be interesting to see the insignia used on the tan warrant officer uniforms - even if there is an inconsistency, it's something footnotable and worthy of interest.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 08:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 
:::If they're ''high quality'' pictures sure. I decided to use those illustrations in the absence of any detailed references and screencaps. The recently added real pictures are still of pretty low quality. They are a nice complement, but can't really replace the drawings IMO. But if we can get nice photos of all pins, sure. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 
::::Yes, that's why the gallery of pin photos was added, instead of replacing the graphics.  Jim's graphics had some inaccuracies that had to be corrected, such as plain "starbursts" w/o the Colonial emblem for the rank lieutenant colonel. The ranks of warrant officer and crew sergeant were missing and had to be "cooked up". Also, replacing the table would have removed the collar piping illustrations, which would have thrown off the text references in the article.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 22:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== Additional footnote for Lieutenant Colonel insignia ==
 
Would it make sense to add an additional bullet to the footnote mentioning that this insignia has been used on warrant officer uniforms?  It appears to be the case from pictures in the BSG auction catalog.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 10:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
: You mean the Warrant Officer's pin, right? Since that was the one mainly used on the tan BDU (with the exception of Sgt. [[Hadrian]]). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
:: Is there a distinct warrant officer's pin?  The ones on the tan BDU's looked like the Lt Col Fisk/Dualla insignia.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 18:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:: Yes, it's basically the same pin as the Lt. Colonel, but with the smaller diamond plates on the sides... very much like the collar dogs that Chief wears, except gold and silver. There's a picture of it in the catalog in the pin collection... the lot # escapes me right now, but a quick search of the PDF (or of the catalog on Auction Network) will pull that up in a jiffy. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 18:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::: Yeah, the side lozenges are closer-in than the Chief's pin, easy to go unnoticed without a dialogue closeup shot (or in auction catalog full-length tan costume illustration)  :-)-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 03:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== Lance Corporal ==
 
Another wrench thrown into the works perhaps (Lance Corporal Maldonaldo)?  It doesn't help that he wore the black tactical uniform without rank insignia. -- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 
:Yeah I noticed that to, I'm inclined to chalk it up as an error on the part of the writing staff.  None of the production materials we've seen to date recognize the existance of that rank.  If such information is forthcoming I think that time would the appropriate time to add it to the chart.  Until then, I think it best to leave it out. -- [[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 14:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 
==Another Admiral?==
 
Just to be picky here, i just watched "Sine Qua Non" and i distinctly recall seeing Adama promote Tight to Admiral in his absence. It's even listed in the episode article, in the details section
[[User:Griffin-2-6|Griffin-2-6]] 23:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
: Correct. Tigh was promoted to Admiral, although the promotion is short lived. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 23:51, 5 August 2009

Specialist Cally, Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial, How Many Admirals, Insignia, Tyrol & Hadrian, "Gunny", Second Chart, Back to Officer Ranks..., Piping, Colorization


Abbreviations, Rank Pins, General update of the page, Gold Bars, Assumptions, USAF?, Commander equals more to USN Captain, my argument, Idea for updated comparison list, Impressive Page, 1 Nitpick about dense chart


Number

Shouldn't Commander be listed as O-7 and Rear Admiral as O-8? Not even getting into the debate over the officer/flag officer status of the Commander rank (although it could go either way (the Colonial forces could have seven officer ranks)), but why is it listed as N/A? It's clearly higher than Colonel, which is O-6. --Kevin W. 21:05, 26 November 2006 (CST)

The numbers correspond with the US ranks, not the BSG ranks. Philwelch 01:13, 27 November 2006 (CST)

PO3

I understand the note about Venner, since PO3 and Cpl are equivalent, but the page itself does quote RDM who says that there is no PO3 grade. How can the page be modified to show this? --Kevin W.•So say we all 18:27, 17 December 2006 (CST)

Mhh, you're right. Though I don't consider that one blog entry as the very last word on it. Ideas might have changed a bit by now. Who knows.
Anyways, the list incluces PO3 mainly for the sake of completion I guess. It does say that some aspects of the table are speculative and that was always ok. You could add a footnote, like done for all other annotations. Then the explination shows up under "references". --Serenity 10:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)

New information

There's an article that is a few months old on galactica.tv about the pins and symbols of the uniforms here. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New 08:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

The new information is really the tiny details that are available from of the pins. Our insignia pictures are from that very same rank chart, so the information is already reflected, except for the narrower Lt.j.g. pin. I can update that later. We just have drawings instead of photographs which is somewhat cleaner however. Maybe the great photo of the Commander pin could be included somehow? (like "more images").
Maybe the information on the other uniform devices could be put on Uniforms (RDM) though. --Serenity 09:10, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
Sounds good. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New 09:30, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Recent round of edits

I got caught up in this again. If I come off as harsh or all to superior, I'm really sorry, but I think this page is pretty good as it is. And all the rest is really pretty nitpicky.

I think it comes down to to different approaches:

  1. That the whole comparison to modern militaries (specifically the US Navy) is overdone.
  2. Some people seem to be more interested having a close to perfect comparison. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I'm clearly in camp 1. Sure there are many parallels. But it's not exactly the same. So this page shouldn't be forced to do something that just isn't there. And in the last major overhauls I tried to excise many of the unnecessary comparisons and make more BSG arguments for things. As it stands, we have reasonable good evidence (sometimes conjectural) that commander more closely resembles a modern captain. Like it doesn't seem to be considered a flag rank; and Roslin also seems to imply that she sees Adama as captain in "Resurrection Ship, Part II". The rest is just made fit as best as possible. Putting Lt. opposed to Lt. make most sense, and so that leaves one rank free. It's not all that clear, but it's there.

So how do other people feel about this? Not so much about the details, but the whole approach of the article. Is the US Navy thing really that important? Should the article be more about BSG? Should we maybe just ditch the comparison if it's so troublesome and not perfect anyways? I think we can keep it, but it just needs to be clear that it's not supposed to be 1:1. I updated the introduction further to try to reflect that. Maybe I'm just too invested here, because I made a lot substantial edits to it, but I also don't like if people just change substantial things, when we had a sort-of consensus about it.

To the people who made those edits: I know you are new. I know that you haven't read everything. And I really don't want to seem overly harsh to you. That's why I'm trying to explain and discuss this here. :) --Serenity 11:44, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Why not just scrap the US Naval Rank column

Absent anything from Ron Moore or the writer's bible, it's all speculation and guesstimation. The only salient comparisons within the RDM Galactica universe would be Fleet vs. Marines. The "Official Statement" is self-explanatory. And like a lot of good fiction, sometimes it's best to leave some details to the individual's own imagination ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fredmdbud (talk • contribs).

Yeah, I'm just about ready do that. We can also keep it, but people just have to realize that it won't fit perfectly. It's a rough guideline, but nothing more. I've inserted two paragraphs now that point that out, without actually hitting the reader of the head.
That whole part is really from the very first version of this article, that was actually more about finding arguments for that comparison table than documenting the BSG universe. Sure you can make a table that lines all up 1:1, but after some discussion most people felt that there are more points to compare the BSG rank of commander to a real world captain, and the rest is built around that. --Serenity 04:38, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
My only concern with deleting it is that it's the type of thing that might get periodically re-added by passers-by. I'd advise some note on the article to head that off, but I have doubts as to whether that would be heeded. --Steelviper 12:55, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
True. And while it's not that important, there is some merit to the comparison. It shouldn't be taken too seriously (pot.kettle.black. ;)), but some people are probably interested to know where certain ranks fall. In retrospect I realize that while there were explanations for certain ranks, there was no explanation for the overall structure. That was an oversight that is hopefully corrected now. We can't expect people to read long arguments on the talk pages to understand how some things are decided, and parts of this article were just presented "as is" without clarification. --Serenity 13:27, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Room for other ranks?

It is hard to beleive that the ranks shown thus far are the only ones. There would logically be something like Midshipman for officer trainees and Lieutenant-Colonel. If so, the Midshipman grad would be easy to figure out (a white diamond), though Lt. Col would be a little more difficult, given the differences between the Colonel and Major insignia. Just a thought... Expatkiwi 16:58, 27 December 2007 (PST)

True. However, we go with ranks that we've either seen or heard on screen or via behind-the-scenes sources. We don't really speculate on any "missing" ranks, since that falls under "fanwanking". -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New 19:05, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Specialist classes

IMO the specialist class ranks from the Flight of the Phoenix and Revelations credits should be considered official unless they are refuted by a more recent official source. -- Gordon Ecker 04:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

What specialist class ranks are you referring to?-- Fredmdbud 04:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The credits list Figurski as "Specialist 3rd class". So, there appear to be at least 3 subdivisions here. But it's not that clear how they should be split up. We also only have a single rank insignia for specialist. I'll add a footnote for now, as it should be noted. It should probably be included into the table, but the question is how. -- Serenity 06:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

RDM's list

Seeing the edits on the page, I need to chime in here. RDM's list, which was published over three years ago, is not the definitive list and we should not be a slave to it. There have been introductions of new ranks since then, like Lt. Colonel and Rear Admiral, that are not included on his list. Conspicuously, he does not include "Warrant Officer" (which there is a pin for, and these are the guys in the BG with the beige BDUs), in addition to Private (like Stewart Jaffee). I'll try to post the definitive list in a few weeks, but the edits that Serenity did are the most accurate to date with the presently available information I have. Attempts to revert them will probably resort in the page being locked, just so you know, since I don't want a needless edit war to break out. Thanks! -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 17:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, just what I was thinking. I don't get why this should be the definite list. It's a fine basis, but it's old and things have been added since then. And this page has always been speculative. In the past far more so than now. It's not like the speculative ranks aren't marked. I've included an (s) for those two ranks now, in addition to the footnotes. I wouldn't just add all kinds of speculation just because it sounds nice, but it's marked clearly enough. If people would rather have something more "official" they are free to skip those lines. It just doesn't make much sense to skip vice admiral for no reason, when rear admiral and admiral have been established, given that the ranks more or less follow real-world examples otherwise. And it's been on the list for one or two years without anyone really objecting.
In general my reverts here, have also been about style. Mainly odd capitalization. Things like "commissioned officer" just aren't capitalized (unless in the headers of the table and such). But neither are ranks. It's "Johnson is a lieutenant", but "Tell Lieutenant Johnson". That's also what Wikipedia uses, though they are a bit inconsistent with it. Other sources like this, this or this also make this clear. I've also noted that people try to capitalize "president" and "vice president" on every occasion. The same rules usually apply there unless it's the full title of the office like "President of the Twelve Colonies"-- Serenity 17:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
All true. By the way, I'd like to get rid of the "Junior Grade"/"Senior Grade" stuff and simply go with "Junior Lieutenant" and "Senior Lieutenant", since this is what they identify these ranks by behind the scenes. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 17:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
On screen both are used though (though in props mostly junior lieutenant). They seem to exist side by side. There is a footnote about it, actually (#7). Maybe that could be changed to make it clearer, or switched around. -- Serenity 17:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
The only real mentions of "Lieutenant Junior Grade" are in the Miniseries, and that was quickly dropped, along with a few other things that didn't quite work from the miniseries. (Such as the "Blade Runner" guns from the Miniseries, which weren't built to last anyway and were just poorly designed.) But I see your point. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 17:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Initial new information

This is by no means the complete list of ranks, but it's based off the pin-ordering sheet I have in front of me. (No, I can't scan it. Sorry.)

From highest to lowest (these are the "green fill" verisons):

  • Crew Master Chief
  • Crew Senior Chief (this is what Tyrol wears before his demotion for being an ass)
  • Sergeant 1st Class (basically the Junior Lieutenant, except the fill is green, not gold).
  • Crew Sergeant (like crew specialist, but has another border—with no breaks—between the outside border and the diamond)
  • Crew Specialist
  • Crewman (which is the same pin as the "Private" that Jaffee wears)
  • Crewman Apprentice

The gold versions:

  • Commander
  • Colonel
  • Warrant Officer (worn by those in the beige BDUs, it's similar to the Crew Master Chief, itself a cross between the Lt. Col and Crew Senior Chief pips)
  • Lt. Colonel (these are the pins that Dualla was wearing in "LDYB" Pt. II
  • Major
  • Captain
  • Senior Lieutenant
  • Junior Lieutenant

As we've already determined earlier, the "ensign" rank pin does not exist.

I'm working on finding about the Admiral pins.

Also, an interesting story about the flight wings that the pilots wear... the symbols in the middle resemble the Captain's rank pins. There's a reason for this. The pins were also supposed to echo the rank of the wearer, but this idea was abandoned during the production. I don't know why, but I'll lay my money on the fact that it had to do with cost. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 01:01, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That actually fits pretty well with the current structure (aside from the names), but some of the enlisted ranks as they are now have been established in dialogue. For example, Dualla is called petty officer second class by Billy, and I think Tyrol is identified as chief petty officer as well. The term "petty officer" in general is also mentioned (for example by Adama when he demotes Tyrol). So that would screw things up a bit.
As for warrant officer. Not everyone in beige BDUs can be a WO. Some of the Marines who have been identified with other ranks wear them as well, most notably Hadrian. It would probably be more accurate to say that in practice all WOs wear beige. -- Serenity 12:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
The warrant-officers-in-khaki thing has always left me scratching my head ... why single out warrant officers with a different style uniform, but have the officers and enlisted wear the same color fatigues? For comparison's sake, in the US Navy, ranks of chief petty officer and above wear khaki service uniforms like officers (hence the term "khaki leadership"), making it easy to make the "chiefs-vs-indians" distinction in a crowd. Maybe it was easier (and cheaper) to "ret-con" the khakis as warrant officer uniforms and kind of sneak by on the collar insignia (which had little chance with a crowd like this :-)), rather than go through the cost and time of developing new insignia.-- Fredmdbud 01:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
There's that too, but it's fiction, so why not? But the other other points that speak against being all khakis = WOs. For example that the uniform is used a lot (there shouldn't be that many WOs from what I understand), is also used by Marine Sergeants (and others) and also worn by a lot of young crewmen. Warrant officers should generally be a bit older I think. It might have been thought of that way, but I don't think the wardrobe department really adheres to it closely. Not that I blame them. -- Serenity 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, this list is a little confusing, it seems like it's a combination of marine and fleet ranks. When you get a chance Joe, I'd like to say a side by side break down of rank equivalents, I have some other questions regarding this list but I'll hold them because I think a side-by-side might answer them. Particularly because some of Joe's comments seem to contradict what we have known up to know.

I'm sure you guys have all seen the graphical rank guide put out by somebody (I can't remember the name of the top of my head but I'd be interested both to see the next update and how the new information jibes with the current version. Does anybody know how to contact this guy?-- Grandmaester314 15:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

You might be referring to Jim Stevenson's article on galactica.tv: http://www.galactica.tv/battlestar-galactica-2003---news/the-history-of-the-rank-insignia-chart-for-battlestar-galactica-2003.html
IMO, I think his observations and analysis are about as speculative as the discussion in this wiki.-- Fredmdbud 01:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Fred, RDM and co. are following their own conventions; they don't have to mirror real-world conventions, at all, despite the wishes of some. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 04:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm just saying ... have there been any references, on-screen or in production notes, of "sr-lieutenant"? Lieutenant and jr-lieutenant have been used in scripts and on props to-date, as far as I know ...-- Fredmdbud 06:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, numerous times. Where, pray tell, do you think I got the above list? -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 15:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
So any idea about the enlisted ranks that are missing but have been mentioned in dialogue (most notably "petty officer second class"). "Specialist" has been mentioned numerous times and is on the list, but PO2 is not on it. If that can't be resolved, it's not really much better than what we have now. -- Serenity 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I realize that Stevenson's model is just as much speculation as ours but I thought it might be helpful to coordinate with him so we can get a consistent image for the new rank insignia's we know know as well as give proposals for ranks that are now known to exist but for which ranks haven't been developed. Right now the Lt. Col. image sticks out because it doesn't show the fringes colors like all the officers I have a version from his sheet that shows it only with white fringe, (at the time it had only been seen worn by Dualla). Also I think now that we know the the insignia for Apprentice/Private First Class, its easy to conclude that their is indeed an insignia for recruit/private because without one, the trend from Apprentice/PFC to Specialist/Corporal to PO2/Sergeant doesn't make sense.

While I'm at it I'd like to propose a new tentative ranks structure based on what new information we now have. Of course this is subject to change when Joe gets more info but I want to run what I've got by all of you and see if I'm missing something or have something confused.

  • Flag Officer
    • Admiral
    • Rear Admiral
  • Senior Commissioned Officer
    • Commander
    • Colonel
    • Lieutenant Colonel
  • Junior Commissioned Officer
    • Major
    • Captain
    • Senior Lieutenant
    • Junior Lieutenant
    • Ensign
  • Senior Enlisted (Non-Commissioned Officer)
    • Master Chief Petty Officer/Sergeant-Major
    • Senior Chief Petty Officer/Master Sergeant
    • Chief Petty Officer/Gunnery Sergeant
    • Petty Officer First Class/Sergeant First Class
    • Petty Officer Second Class/Sergeant
  • Junior Enlisted
    • Specialist/Corporal
    • Apprentice/Private First Class
    • Recruit/Private

Also, I want to clarify two things with Joe: First, it appears from something you wrote above that you believe Tyrol was a Senior Chief Petty Officer instead of just plain Chief. Is that true? Second, are there supposed to be separate rank insignia for warrant officers or are they supposed to be simply identified by their uniform color.

Finally I'm kinda wondering if there are multiple grades of warrant officer like their are in the U.S. military.

Grandmaester314 16:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I need to make something a bit clear here. Firstly, the costuming / props department has not made a new rank for every single specialist (whether that be SP1, SP2, SP3). Figurski wears the same pins that Cally does, for instance. Also, with regard to the Lt. Col. pins, one of the judges (the African one) from "Crossroads" wears these pins on his own uniform, though is not part of the Col. Military. So... when it comes to the accouterments of b.g. officers, they're not really anal about it. And speaking of the Lt. Col pins, there's at least one or two offers in the blue BDUs that wear them, simply because they're not enough pins to go around. (Or not enough on the truck, or whatever.)
As for Tyrol, since there are other petty officers aboard (i.e. Basim and Peter Laird), it would make the most sense. In any event, he wears the pins.
For the ranking system itself... it wasn't meant to be overly analyzed like what we're doing. As RDM indicated, it is derived from TOS—which I personally believe to be a serious mistake—so it was already FUBARed from the start. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 17:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Just a nitpick and tidbit to chew on, take it for what it's worth ... there is no such thing as Sergeant First Class in the Marine Corps. If you're aiming to align with PO1, that would be Staff Sergeant (SSG). The only sergeant ranks I can recall from dialogue in the episodes (not including credits, to which I never really paid attention) are the generic "sergeant" and "gunny", so conceivable room to justify SFC rather than SSG (which is an army equivalent of gunny & CPO). Such are the hazards of trying to maintain something resembling "canon" with a combination of speculation, extrapolation, and a writing staff that introduces contradictions and revisions, not to mentioning costuming (lol for effect) ...-- Fredmdbud 21:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Ugh, my use of the word "canon" gave me spine shivers, I hope things don't devolve into something "Richard Arnold"-esque (a Star Trek fandom spectactle/controversy/train-wreck, for those not familiar with the name ...)!-- Fredmdbud 22:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

References

The references currently aren't showing up. I've checked the page in K-Meleon and IE6. -- Gordon Ecker 07:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I tried it in IE7 and it doesn't work when I'm logged out. Logging in will display the references. -- Serenity 14:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Frak. I'll try to fix that tonight. I think we may just need to update the extension... -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 16:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent Updates

As the freeze period has expired I decided to make some updates which I thought seemed appropriate. In the interest of avoiding another edit war I'd like to elaborate a little on those changes which I think are most likely to be controversial.

  • I have once again removed the rank of Vice Admiral, I know this has been a sore point between me and some others but with lieutenant colonel, their are now ten confirmed officer ranks which already is starting to make the rank structure pretty top heavy especially given that in the U.S. Military there are usually ten officer ranks and nine enlisted ranks. Currently we have ten confirmed officer ranks and only seven confirmed enlisted ranks (eight if you include senior chief petty officer which hasn't been proven). I think it highly unlikely that there would be such a discrepency in the number of ranks between the two corps (officers v. enlisted). I have left senior chief petty officer because I think it is at least possible that such a rank may exist, although I am by no means sold on it..
  • As for the Marine Ranks: The ranks of private, private first class, and sergeant major have already been established both as ranks and as to their position in the rank structure. In addition, the ranks of Corporal, Sergeant and Gunnery Sergeant have been established as existing but their place in the structure hasn't been definitively established. To fill out the gap between sergeant and gunnery sergeant (as well as to confirm the places of the other ranks that are as of yet unconfirmed as to position, I have relied on Joe's post indicating a partial rank listing. In that posting he mentions both sergeant and sergeant first class as distinct ranks and also notes that sergeant first class shares the same insignia as petty officer first class. If we assume that this information is correct we then have enough information to definitively name and place all the marine enlisted ranks. That is how I have derived the current structure.
  • I also have removed marine "lieutenant" Terry Burrell from the officer example list since, as was already indicated on the page in a footnote, his place in the rank structure is not definitively known.
  • As noted in the footnotes, the reason for my changing the rank of deckhand also is derived from Joe's post. It's also partly inspired by my own personal belief that deckhand doesn't really sound like a rank. However as their is generally hostility to changes based only on personal inclinations (and perhaps rightly so), I have only changed it now based on the new information provided by Joe.

I also have a couple questions:

  • How is that some you are able to include brief comments in your history logs?
  • How does one upload pictures? I have a better version (though still not consistent with the others for the crewman/private first class insignia but I don't know how to post it.

Grandmaester314 17:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the serious mistake here is the mistake we made in earlier versions of this article. That mistake was to try to mirror or associate Colonial Military ranks to US (and other real-world) military ranks; obviously, since the Original Series rank structure was FUBARed to begin with, there could be no clear real-life association to be made. So, yes, it may be top heavy... but we're here to report, not to make up facts or fanwank to explain things, which is what I'm starting to see here a bit, particularly with the brevet ranking notes.
Regarding your questions, the "summary" line in the editing form is where we note the brief comments in the history logs. To upload files, you need to go to the Media Repository to upload your files. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 00:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, the deckhand thing makes sense. That always seemed a weird choice for a rank, as it also refers to mechanics and the like in general. As for Dualla's rank in LDYB. The simplest thing is to leave it at lieutenant and consider it a costuming mishap. It's the first time she appeared in an officer's uniform, which may explain it. The explanation about a brevet promotion may appear logical, but from what I can tell, the writers don't put that much thought into such trivial details. Every comment about Lee Adama, for example, makes it sound like they consider it to be a normal promotion. And his demotion to major is actually referred to explicitly in a deleted scene in "Collaborators", even if it's a bit jokingly. -- Serenity 14:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Updated Rank Chart based off of format established by Jim Stevenson

I'm sure all of you by now has seen the rank guide created by Jim Stevenson, in fact I'm pretty sure that's where almost all of the rank device images on the page come from. Anyway it's been a year and a half since he last updated it and there have been several major updates, so I went ahead and updated it might self. Would there be a problem with me posting it, and if so would people have a problem with me posting it in lieu of the current chart?

Grandmaester314 21:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You should definitely ask him if he's ok with you updating and reworking it. He hasn't worked on it for some time, but it's still his design. This page credits him, but I also asked if I could cut the chart up like this. And actually creating a new version is another thing entirely. He might be fine with it, but you should ask.
As for the change I made to your recent edits. That wasn't about the content, so much as the style. We already have an entire page of footnotes and such extensive notes aren't good to read IMO. Yeah, I've seen legal documents with one page for one footnote, but that doesn't mean it's such a good idea. Most of it is necessary here, but the stuff you added was very self-argumentative and could be shortened a lot. Basically it says that it's unclear why the decision was made, that there may be one or two in-universe reasons, but that there are also real-world reasons like an error or production realities. That's perfectly fine, but it's possible to say that in one or two sentences without adding five footnotes, that were frankly hard to read the way they were worded and structured. It took me a while to get what the actual argument was, and then I realized that a lot of it didn't really add to the point made, but just hid it behind verbosity. -- Serenity 17:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I would have asked him directly but I have no way of contacting him. Also I apologize for the "verbosity," I have a very flowery writing style and to be quite honest couldn't simply anything to save my life, if anybody would like to try to do that I welcome the assistance. However I do reserve the right to reinsert something if I believe something of value has been cut.Grandmaester314 14:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
With the upcoming auction of BSG props, wouldn't now be an opportune time to replace the rank illustrations with images of actual production insignia? It would also be interesting to see the insignia used on the tan warrant officer uniforms - even if there is an inconsistency, it's something footnotable and worthy of interest.-- Fredmdbud 08:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
If they're high quality pictures sure. I decided to use those illustrations in the absence of any detailed references and screencaps. The recently added real pictures are still of pretty low quality. They are a nice complement, but can't really replace the drawings IMO. But if we can get nice photos of all pins, sure. -- Serenity 21:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's why the gallery of pin photos was added, instead of replacing the graphics. Jim's graphics had some inaccuracies that had to be corrected, such as plain "starbursts" w/o the Colonial emblem for the rank lieutenant colonel. The ranks of warrant officer and crew sergeant were missing and had to be "cooked up". Also, replacing the table would have removed the collar piping illustrations, which would have thrown off the text references in the article.-- Fredmdbud 22:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Additional footnote for Lieutenant Colonel insignia

Would it make sense to add an additional bullet to the footnote mentioning that this insignia has been used on warrant officer uniforms? It appears to be the case from pictures in the BSG auction catalog.-- Fredmdbud 10:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You mean the Warrant Officer's pin, right? Since that was the one mainly used on the tan BDU (with the exception of Sgt. Hadrian). -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 16:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a distinct warrant officer's pin? The ones on the tan BDU's looked like the Lt Col Fisk/Dualla insignia.-- Fredmdbud 18:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it's basically the same pin as the Lt. Colonel, but with the smaller diamond plates on the sides... very much like the collar dogs that Chief wears, except gold and silver. There's a picture of it in the catalog in the pin collection... the lot # escapes me right now, but a quick search of the PDF (or of the catalog on Auction Network) will pull that up in a jiffy. ;-) -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 18:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, the side lozenges are closer-in than the Chief's pin, easy to go unnoticed without a dialogue closeup shot (or in auction catalog full-length tan costume illustration)  :-)-- Fredmdbud 03:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Lance Corporal

Another wrench thrown into the works perhaps (Lance Corporal Maldonaldo)? It doesn't help that he wore the black tactical uniform without rank insignia. -- Fredmdbud 07:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed that to, I'm inclined to chalk it up as an error on the part of the writing staff. None of the production materials we've seen to date recognize the existance of that rank. If such information is forthcoming I think that time would the appropriate time to add it to the chart. Until then, I think it best to leave it out. -- Grandmaester314 14:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Another Admiral?

Just to be picky here, i just watched "Sine Qua Non" and i distinctly recall seeing Adama promote Tight to Admiral in his absence. It's even listed in the episode article, in the details section Griffin-2-6 23:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Tigh was promoted to Admiral, although the promotion is short lived. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 23:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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