Talk:Revelations/Archive1

Archive
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Lt "Gonzo" Pike

A "Lt. Gonzo Pike" is also listed on the casting sheet for "The Ties That Bind" for what it's worth. --Serenity 06:01, 18 November 2007 (CST)

The convention report attributes the forest scenes to episode 11. Since other reports state that they have shut down after episode 13, this like means that they are the same by episode numbers. "Revelations" is episode 10 however! --Serenity 01:57, 20 November 2007 (CST)

Here's the thing though... is Katee counting "Razor" as one episode? If so, then that makes "Revelations" episode 11, by her count. Also, about 4.13... it seems that there are only 10 episodes "in the can", as far as I can determine. Also, production numbers can be taken out of order; it's happened before to series such as Babylon 5 and even the original BSG. So, 4.13... Is that episode 11, or is that part of episode 10, which may be extended? Plus we have two missing episodes that are unaccounted for, 4.07 and 4.09.

To be honest, it's a bit confusing. LOL -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 09:55, 21 November 2007 (CST)

Right. Counting "Razor" as one episode makes this correct again. That's probably the case. --Serenity 11:36, 21 November 2007 (CST)

4.0 finale?

Is this the finale to the first half of the season? OTW 21:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd venture a "yes". Not only is the episode #10 out of 20 (excluding "Razor"), but the SciFi Channel doesn't list it either on the site in general or on their schedule. --Mars 12:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It's the mid-season cliffhanger... Should add that to the notes. :) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Advance screening

Since the episode apparently has an advance screening tomorrow, maybe we should lock the article. I vaguely I recall that a similar screening resulted in the episode summary or analysis to be written. That's not so bad, but we have no way to verify the stuff. Plus, I don't think we should spoil it for everyone just because a handful of people have seen the episode already. It's probably not that likely that there will be massive edits, but taking precautions doesn't hurt. Someone might also read spoilers somewhere else and try to add them here. -- Serenity 18:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe you are referring to "Razor". And, well, despite the advanced screening any content from it is still considered a spoiler, since it hasn't made a nation-wide airing. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, Razor. That was just an internet leak though and we could easily obtain a copy as well. That's not the case with a theater screening. -- Serenity 18:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if you recall, it was also screened in certain markets about a week before the air date. :) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Location on earth

To me the location on earth looked a bit like the ruins of Ellis Island with New York City in the backround. Am I way off? --Laisak 10:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

It's Brooklyn. Check it out.--Werthead 11:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

You are right. I didn't think that was a bridge, just a girder. --Laisak 12:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

5th Cylon

“Is Number Three honest in her claim that there are only four of the Final Five in the Fleet? If so, where is the fifth and last Cylon? If she's lying, is it because she still harbors distrust for her compatriots and the humans?”

Perhaps the 5th is already on the Basestar? Nerull 13:39, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Were there any other major characters except Baltar and Roslin? Roslin is pretty much ruled out by the joke Five made. --Laisak 13:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Karl Agathon was still on the baseship, but he's human, as far as we know. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is weird. Are there any major characters anywhere else? I mean, there are three Cylon models + Boomer in the Cylon fleet but they're not exactly good candidates. Did we leave someone behind somewhere? Surely, the final Cylon isn't dead. It has to be a major character. I guess it has to be one of Helo/Roslin/Baltar. I think that Roslin would be the most likely of those. The 3's question could have been meant in earnest. Haukurth 15:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm stretching this, but the five are supposed to find the way to earth. Chief, Sam and Tigh find the Viper (this could also make Starbuck a Cylon) and Roslin gives the final go for jump. There is a problem with Tory, she does nothing. --Laisak 14:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Tory can't do anything because the call summons her to Galactica, where Starbuck's Viper is. Obviously, she's disconnected from the rest of the Four, so she has the adverse reaction. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

What about Hera? D'anna was only "interested" in the four, and that way opened the door for another less important (for now) cylon......

My thoughts were, D'anna says four are in the fleet. She also freaks out and apologizes to what is presumably the fifth cylon in her vision in a way that suggests it's personal. What if the fifth cylon is someone in the fleet who was killed either by her or the cylons as a group that she then recognized? Any people who were previously killed off by D'anna or the cylons in general that could fill that slot? I wanted to say Ellen Tigh, but Baltar did the test on her and if she'd come up positive he wouldn't be wondering who the fifth is like everyone else. --Ssiixx 23:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Though this would be an anti climax I assume that the fifth final five is none of the caracters we already now. I think he is located on earth, maybe waiting in some bunker or whatever. He could also be on his own ship, not too far away from the cylons and humans, watching. Since there is a lot more to explain about the time that passed from the end of the cylon war to their reappearing, I assume that the last cylon is also the link between the twelve human cylon models and the rest of the cylon race. Even if he IS the rest. Lincore 02:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

From a narrative perspective, it is improbable that D'Anna was being absurdly literal, excluding a character who happened to be on the basestar at the moment she said "There are four in your fleet." Since her goal was to get the final five to the basestar, it would make little sense for her to ignore one that was already there.

I think the living human characters are fairly effectively ruled out, but that doesn't necessarily entail an anti-climactic revelation to come. On the contrary, revealing Adama, Apollo, Starbuck, Roslin, or Baltar to be a Cylon is exactly what is expected, and this is a show which is built on defying expectations. What is needed to create a suitable climax for the series as a whole is not simply a revelation of the sort, "____ was a Cylon all along!" Instead, it needs to be a revelation that lays bare the show's mythology, that explains what happened three thousand years ago and why all of this seems to have been manipulated into occurring today. To fulfill that function a non-central character that played a crucial role in the past actually works better.

Of course, it could all be foilers, and it could just be Roslin.--Hylas 19:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Earth - Speculation

Kara Thrace is the harbinger of death, according to the hybrid. She is also the only character we know has been to Earth. What if she triggered a series of events that led to the destruction of the 13th tribe? She probably isn't the 5th, but she's something else. I think she's playing the character of Krishna for those of you who've read Bhagavad Gita, but at the same time her connections to the arrow of Apollo make me think she might be Arjuna. In either case, her counterpart would be the 5th.

What is hard to explain is her viper. How does it explode visibly and then come back in mint condition in the nebula? Vipers don't have FTL either, so everything seems weird.

• International Space Station and satellites probably wouldn't be affected by nuclear war
• They can't all be dead - there's got to be somebody alive from the 13th tribe.
• New York, sure, but who would waste a nuke on New Jersey? (*grin*)

--Smari 14:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

ISS and other spacecraft in low-earth orbit will see their orbits decay within a decade (or even less) due to atmospheric drag without periodic reboosts (the demise of Skylab in 1979 is a perfect example of this). Even satellites in pretty high Earth orbit will fall back to Earth within a few hundred years - assuming that a significantly long time has elapsed since whatever happened on Earth, the only stuff left in orbit will be stuff out at the Clarke (geosynchronous) orbit.

--Qprmeteor 15:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but not much time has passed in the fleet, yet the plants growing on the ruins suggest the event was a long time ago. However, there was a time discrepancy associated with Kara's previous visit.

--Xlynx 16:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The article states that "[...] the series is set in the future and not the past [...]." This is not necessarily true. That - what was his name again - hybrid in razor said, that this happens "again, again, again...", so I came to the conclusion, that this might as well be our past. Maybe next time, it goes the other way round and people are escaping from earth after it was nuked by cylons or - whatever is next in line - and the human race is looking for an ancient world called... caprica for instance. This would make the Galactica Noah's Ark. Just my two cents... Lincore 01:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Locating Earth based on just a bearing

There's a comment made in the main article stating that making a precision jump based solely on a bearing seems unlikely. It doesn't seem to me like this would necessarily be the case. Based on the bearing, Galactica should be able to scan in that direction, looking for solar systems. From there, they could scan for inhabitable planets. Assuming they truly are in our solar system, that narrows it down to one planet. We know that Colonial FTLs are capable of some extremely precise jumps, so jumping into orbit doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

The part that seems unlikely to me is that the fleet has been haphazardly stumbling around all this time jumping from point to point, several hundred jumps from the 12 Colonies. Now the Fleet is within jump range of Earth, without even knowing exactly where they were going.

--Scionic 16:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the Fleet jumped from their position to Earth in one jump. Getting to Earth probably took many jumps, which is what Lee meant when he said his course would have to be corrected as they went. The writers just skipped all these intermediate jumps and cut straight ahead to the final one. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 22:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Even given that, it would be more believable to jump somewhere into the solar system rather than directly into orbit on the final jump. That's really just dramatic license. However, as said above, it makes sense that they would use astronomical readings to determine the location of star systems in the direction. But, it wouldn't be the usual generic, faster-than-light sci-fi scans. BSG's stellar navigation is mostly more in line with real astronomy, i.e. using passive readings -- Serenity 23:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

In watching the episode again, it looks like they very well might be inside the Sol System for their final jump, presumably to save time/fuel instead of slogging their away across the system at sublight. The last establishing shot of the fleet before the final jump shows a yellow star, fairly close. This is presumably our Sun. Plus, I have to say I disagree on the method of stellar navigation. For general in-system navigation and plotting, passive systems would make sense, but for FTL jumps (which have been indicated to be many light-years long), sci-fi faster-than-light scans would almost be necessary. Otherwise they'd be jumping into a region of space based on a scan that is many months or even years old. It would be like mounting an FTL drive on my car, and jumping into the middle of a busy freeway based on a picture I took a couple weeks ago - I could very well jump into the middle of another car, jump into a location that no longer exists, etc. --Scionic 06:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Better sure, but such magical technology simply doesn't exist. And all serious works of sci-fi deal a bit with the lightspeed information lag. True, BSG makes jumps next to planetary bodies and especially ships way too easy sometimes, but now and then, it's also pointed out how dangerous such jumps are. And that whole thing is the reason behind the term Red Line. A limit behind which jumps can't be plotted (e.g. stellar movement extrapolated from known data) accurately enough to have a certain margin of error. -- Serenity 11:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The Universe is a very big and empty place... Using normal tools they indeed see outdated images, the way things were months maybe years before... But the movement of stars and planets can be easily observed and predicted accurately enough to jump in space and not inside a star or planet. Remember, they don't have to jump directly into orbit around Earth, probably not even in the solar system, just close enough to get a closer look and get more accurate coordinates... -- Evilforce 11:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not just talking about the episode specifically, but the series in general. For planets that surely works. That's what I meant above. But they also jump extremely close to ships without problems. And their movement couldn't be predicted. That part is unrealistic. But never mind; it's pretty pointless to discuss this at such length. We kinda agree anyways :) -- Serenity 12:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

About jumping close to ships: I've got a little theory about that which I brought up in some long forgotten thread at Battlestar Forum: distance between ships is preserved through a jump. By this, I mean that the distance between e.g. Galactica and Colonial One after the jump will be equal to the one before it, because they made the exact same jump. For the same reason, you should be able to jump close to or even in the middle of the Fleet, provided you jumped away from that same spot. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 13:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Is it Earth at all?

Is the planet actually Earth? No recognisable land masses are visible from orbit, unlike in "Crossroads, Part II". The ruins look vaguely like Brooklyn and the Temple of Aurora, but it's inconclusive. The only thing conclusive is the star patterns match. Perhaps this is another pointer along the way. -- Xlynx 16:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The scriptures say the dying leader wasn't supposed to survive to see their new home, although that's making two assumptions - that the dying leader is Roslin and the new home is the planet. --Xlynx 23:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

"Inductive reasoning is the death of philosophy". You can never prove anything definitively based on observed evidence, but I'd be willing to bet my house (if I owned one) on that being Earth. Aside from the many, many on-screen things, it would be a huge slap in the face to viewers if this was just Terra or something. Consider that the writers have set up this exquisite concept that in the near future civilisation is destroyed, only for it to be revealed that this is just some arbitrary planet. (Plus a few spoilers for episodes ahead do say this is Earth). Sometimes a spade is just a desolute, lifeless and radioactive spade. OTW 23:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The discussion about the lack of recognisable land masses made me realise something - there's no sign of the Moon. I thing the writers have been very clever hiding any definitive traces that this is indeed Earth - there are after all 3 other Sun-like stars nearby to us, and the Fleet may be elsewhere. If we saw a recognisable land form or Luna herself, there would be no doubt - but an interesting door has been left open, I think. Qprmeteor 13:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's curious, but the destroyed city is clearly New York. And you don't necessarily see the moon even in a wide shot of space. That depends on the direction of the view. Besides, there are only 10 episodes left. There isn't really much point in such an elaborate deception when there are other story and character arcs to tie up. -- Serenity 13:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's clearly NYC to you, but only vaguely to me. But there's also the possibility they added so much cloud to keep the condition of the surface hidden until the revealing moment, and to have enough debris in the atmosphere for consistency with a nuclear winter. -- Xlynx 11:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

We won't resolve this one until the rest of the season. Starbuck made a big deal about the moon, photographed it, oddly called it a "yellow moon" and said that was a key clue from Pythia. We don't yet know why the moon would be yellow, but we can be pretty sure if the moon from Starbuck's photos and Pythia's legend were not there, they would have noticed it. "Uh, hey, where's the giant moon?" It's the yellow part that is interesting.--Bradtem 02:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The possible finale?

Back before the season started and during the Writer's Strike, Sackhoff made a comment that the last episode they'd filmed might have acted as a series finale if the strike had gone on long enough that they couldn't return to work. Now, according to the Wiki, it's the next episode that she was referring to, but I was wondering how sure we were of that. There seems to have been a lot of confusion about which episodes production people are talking about. And I feel, after watching Revelations, that it seems like a likely candidate for the episode she was talking about. Thoughts? Alpha5099 02:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we're pretty much certain. Sometimes a Great Notion was the last episode written before the strike and the last episode filmed before the break, and the scenes mentioned here take place after the end of Revelations. -- Gordon Ecker 07:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Far fetched Jehovah's Witnesses connection?

To summarize: The Landing party appears to be on a plot of land that is very reminiscent of Brooklyn Heights looking out over to a land mass that has a similar topography of Manhattan Island with a structure to the extreme right that looks vaguely like a wrecked Tower of the Brooklyn Bridge Meanwhile in real life in that same area they appear to be in happens to have the Watchtower Building. The word "Watchtower" is part of the title of a Bob Dylan song in which four Cylons heard in their heads. Is it true for a fact? I don't know, but there is evidence for it and it would be a HUGE coincidence. Oh, I almost forgot: There is also the the fact that a off-shoot branch of the Jehovah's Witnesses has the word "Dawn" in its name and there is supposed to be a Temple called the Temple of Aurora for the The Goddess of Dawn? Hey, it could be all wrong, but at least I have evidence for it. To be clear I am not saying that RDM is bearing direct comparison to the Colonial situation but I think he using the JW as clues of some kind.Hunter2005 08:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the Watchtower connection could be notable, but the Dawn connection is going too far in my opinion. Thoughts? --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 10:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Also it's just too verbose for not adding much at all. At least it should be cut down. It's a tenuous connection to begin with and there is no reason to extrapolate so much from it. Just noting the fact should be fine. -- Serenity 12:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the cut down, however I don't agree that it is tenuous. This show is heavy with religion and deliberately so. I am NOT saying that RDM has a specific religious agenda, Jehovah's Witnesses or otherwise, he is a lapsed Catholic who is into the Eastern Asian Faiths, but it is hard to believe that the "Watchtower" building in real life being where the landing party is is a coincidence. It is meant as clue that it is really New York. I, as a New Yorker born, raised and lived my entire life take it as a HUGE slap-in-the-face-hint. Anyway, here is a link to an interview on his use of religion in his version of BSG and the Mormon influences of the original.The Watchtower building, where it is and Bob Dyan's song thing was NO accident or coincidence. And I don't think the Dawn thing between the Greek Goddess and the Jehovah's Witnesses faction is either although I admit there is much less objective evidence for it. Hunter2005 04:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's clearly supposed to be in the same place as New York, but the timeframe of the series has not yet been established. -- Gordon Ecker 07:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

My 2 cents is that, unless we see further JW links, this is probably a coincidence. It may be of note to say what currently stands on the bank where the crew are though. OTW 09:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Like I said earlier, the Watchtower note is not disputed. Regardless of whether it's deliberate, it deserves to be noted on this page. The JW/Aurora connection is much weaker, and I agree with OTW that unless more references to the Jehova's Witnesses pop up, it's too weak to be noted. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 10:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

To be clear again, I am not saying there is an actual JW/Cylon connection or RDM having an agenda. I think it is a clue as to where they are in New York if they are in New York. In a show that is heavily religously themed; to have a Bob Dyan Song with the word "Watchtower" in it and then show the Landing Party what could be an area around the East Tower of the Brooklyn Bridge which happens to be in the area where the Religous sect owned Watchtower building is in real life is VERY suspicious to me as a New Yorker, as to show that it is New York City. If it is a coincidence it is a HUGE one, a struck-by-lighting-three-days-in-a-row type of coincidence. 10:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't see a real connection aside from the name of our buildings; based on what I know of BG's religious inspiration, and comparing them to our beliefs, I think I can safely say that this is a surprisingly coincidence . That said, here is a footnote from our of our publications in regards to the origin of the name:

The expression "Watch Tower" is no unique to Russell's writings or to Jehovah's Witnesses. George Storrs published a book in the 1850s called The Watch Tower: Or, Man in Death; and the Hope for a Future Life. The name was also incorporated in the title of various religious periodicals. It stems from the idea of keeping on the watch for the outworking of God's purposes - Isa 21:8,11,12; Ezek 3:17; Hab 2:1 - Jehovah's Witnesses, Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, page 48.

Take that as you will. As for me, I may just stop by here every once in a while and giggle. :D -- Ibmjones

Note that if it's the Brooklyn bridge, it is an error because it has metal rods sticking out of it. Leaving aside the fact they should be r usted after so long, the Brooklyn bridge was built before reinforced concrete was used in the USA. The one to the right could be the Manhattan bridge, which was built later.--Bradtem 02:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Who says they are reinforcing rods? The whole thing is black as if it is in shadow. You cannot tell details like that. I doubt from a dramatic point of view that they will use the Manhattan Bridge Who the hell knows about the Manhattan Bridge except New Yorkers like me who took the "D" and "N" subway trains over it LOL! The Brooklyn Bridge is iconic. Anyway it is undoubtedly a bridge. RDM says so in his podcast of Revelations. It contains a lot of oblique answers to questions. Hunter2005 08:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Pardon?

I don't recall any pardon Lee Adama issued, and I couldn't find the word "pardon" in his article or in the episode guides for the episodes in which he was President. Am I missing something?

• It is not mentioned whether or not Lee Adama's pardon means the Final Four Cylons will, or can, remain in the Colonial military in crucial positions.

--Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 18:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

He gives them an "amnesty" - "free to go, free to stay". It's right after he announces that he hands all the information over to the Cylon rebels, when they stand around Starbuck's Viper. -- Serenity 18:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, now I remember. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 19:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The question of the pardon, and whether it extended to Caprica-Six, is answered here: http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/06/18/battlestar-galactica-interview-mark-verheiden-on-cylon-amnesty-and-finding-earth/?cid=9445 -- Noneofyourbusiness 02:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)