Talk:Number One/Archive 1

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I believe it should be Cavil, not Brother Cavil, same as it's Cally, not Specialist Cally.

Yep. --Peter Farago 19:20, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Cylon?

Just from speculation based on the 'not at any of the cylon meetings' line, which is so similar to Six's line.

Also if he is a cylon he could be 'Number 1,' as that so far the lower the number the higher the age of the cylon. Perhaps that makes him the 'leader', that is, if cylon's have leaders in their 'society based on unity'.

Just a guess--Antagonist 21:12, 7 March 2006 (CST)

I doubt he is Number 1. Plus, as people keep on forgetting, Cylons only appear to age -- they don't actually grow up from infancy like humans do. They're made as old as they look (or as young as they look). Period. I wouldn't be surprised if he was Number 12, thus sinking the whole "model number sorted by age" thing. -- Joe Beaudoin 17:47, 12 March 2006 (CST)

I agree, though I'll take it a step further and say that he is likely Number 12, and likely not Number 1. I think either we have not seen Number 1 yet in any form...or else Number 1 has been there from the beginning, and will be a big surprise for us. --Felix Culpa 12:52, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Do we know if both discovered models were named Cavil? Because that makes me suspicious that their discovery together wouldn't be accidental. And especially with how in agreement they were even after being separately for months (presumably). I don't trust their words, especially now that the Colony was subjugated. Rocky8311 12:42, 13 March 2006 (CST)

As far as I know, there's no on screen evidence of Caprica Cavil being called Cavil directly. We just call him "Caprica Cavil" for the sake of discerning the two different copies of that model, since we only know that model by Cavil. Hope that isn't as confusing as it reads... -- Joe Beaudoin 13:09, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Cavil and Cylon Aging

Regardless of whether or not the claim about preaching longer than Tyrol has been "sucking down oxygen" is correct, Cavil's apparent age (approximately 70, going by Dean Stockwell's real age) gives us some hints about the maturation of Humano-Cylons. It would be very safe to assume that the Cylons haven't been at this for a whole 70 years--otherwise, agents would probably have been introduced into Colonial society during the first war, instead of waiting for the second, and Baltar and Adama and every other survivor wouldn't have been surprised by the fact that they "look like us." A Humano-Cylon body, pre-download, seems to be either a) generated from scratch and resembling a particular age the moment it's ready (an instant twenty-something Sharon, early thirties Six, and late sixties/early seventies Cavil), or b) Cylon genes can be temporarily tweaked to accelerate an aging process that is usually human normal. Either way, the Cylons don't seem to spend 20-plus years generating a new body. Master geneticists that they are, why would they have to wait? -- BlueResistance 22:28, 18 March 2006 (EST).

I thought (a) was the clear implication of "Resurrection Ship, Part I" and "Downloaded" - new Cylon bodies come pre-aged. --Peter Farago 21:21, 18 March 2006 (CST)

Those technically weren't new bodies. They are copies, not clones, remember? A "new" body is exactly duplicated from an old one. By definition all will be the same age. So any aging would take place simultaneously across the whole model. Also, Dean Stockwell is ~70 but Cavil can be younger.--Noneofyourbusiness 23:11, 18 March 2006 (EST)

Are you suggesting there's a stock supply of uninhabited Cylon bodies all aging simultaneously, a la Evangelion? --Peter Farago 21:54, 18 March 2006 (CST)

Er, yes. That is what the Resurrection Ship (and whatever they have on their homeworld) is. My point is that when they make a new uninhabited body it's A Copy, Not A Clone, and thus the same age as the body it was copied from.--Noneofyourbusiness 23:41, 18 March 2006 (EST)

Every body in a Cylon model is the same. They are all twins, none is a clone of another. They are made in the resurrection Ship, that was visually implied by the whole stack of Sixes. The Cavils themeselves are proof that they are made the age they look. There are Cavils in pods looking exactly like they do. The "longer than.." comment was needed, he wouldn't say "I've been preaching for two years, since I'm a Cylon.." --Sauron18 19 March 2006

I removed the statement claiming that the humanoid cylons possibly came into existence thirty years prior to the time period in the show was contradicted by other evidence. It misunderstood the point of the previous statement (which I originally submitted), which does not argue that the infiltration of the colonies began that far back. It only suggests that the humanoid cylons came into being thirty or more years prior to the time of the series assuming Cavil was telling the truth about preaching longer than Tyrol had been sucking down oxygen. --Felix Culpa 23:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

How do we know Cylons even biologically age? They might have something that prevents that. Commander Mazien 18:37, 29 November 2006 (CST)

Given that Cylon agents and humans are genetically alike, and since cells degrade over time, it would follow that Cylons are capable of aging. After all, life is the quirk that keeps the meat fresh, as it were. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:24, 30 November 2006 (CST)

Not necessarily. Cylons are genetically engineered cyborgs. They might have been built to not age. Philwelch 13:57, 2 December 2006 (CST)

Indeed, though they are identical to the cellular level, at the molecular level they already start looking different, which leaves room for enough difference between their compositions to make everthing they do, and possibly lack of aging, possible. So it's a possibility that they do no age. --Sauron18 14:06, 2 December 2006 (CST)

I just re-watched "The Eye of Jupiter," and noted that Cavil implied that he and his colleagues had functional immortality; that whether finding Earth took "5 years or 5000," they'd still be around when it was found. --Panopticon 21:17, 15 January 2007 (CST)

Everything has, more or less, an end of life to it. Electronics break down too, though not in the same way humans do. Their immortality could easily occur via the downloading process. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 21:51, 15 January 2007 (CST)

Cavil "Atheist"

It seems in their conversation that they came to a fairly Agnostic, not atheist, conclusion with the line "can't prove it one way or another." Thought? --posted by Xavier101

No. Athiest. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 20:13, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Could be either, but I'm leaning towards atheist. Philwelch 22:53, 27 June 2006 (CDT)

They acknowledged it couldn't be proven but stated that they personally believe there is no God, thus they are atheists. Noneofyourbusiness 11:34, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Strictly speaking, a 'true' atheist denies the existence of a god or gods and does not concede the possibility that "we just don't know or can't prove it." An agnostic takes the position that we do not know or cannot prove it (presently), but often actually does have a basically atheistic outlook on the universe. My opinion is that, from a purely logical standpoint, Cavil's statements make him an agnostic with an atheistic outlook. Or, in other words, he would concede that he can't REALLY prove it one way or another, but would be willing to lay a substantial wager on the non-existence of god. --Felix Culpa 13:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

I think the fact that Cavil always used his hands to make quotation marks in the air each time he said "God" in "Occupation/Precipice" makes it far more likely that he's not at all on the same page as most of the other Cylons. Even undercover as a brother, he flat-out denies the concept. Perhaps more light will be shed in season 3. If a Cavil encounters Dodona Selloi, it would do just that. --Spencerian 15:37, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

You know, along the lines of not being on the same page as other Cylons...you remember that the various models of Cylon were having that discussion in Exodus Part I, and Cavil excused himself from the discussion, ostensibly because his input into it was unnecessary (if I recall correctly.) I interpreted that as Cavil essentially noting to the others that he is in disagreement as to fundamental courses of action with ALL of the other models present at the meeting. You get the same vibe? --Felix Culpa 20:01, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

Atheism doesn't deny the existence of a god or gods, atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. You're thinking of "strong" or "positive atheism" Philwelch 01:32, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

That is one definition of the term 'atheism' to be sure, but its most common definition is indeed 'strong' atheism (as you have defined it), just as the most common definition of 'agnostic' implies lack of knowledge (or indeed, as a necessary consequence, a belief) as to same. Just what we mean by having a 'belief' is actually quite hard to define. But, at this point in the discussion, for purposes of probing Cavil's psyche, I think we are talking of distinctions without a difference. ;-) --Felix Culpa 17:52, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

Sleep Agent

Is Galactica Cavil a sleeper agent? I tend to think that he is because he seems to have a fake history and seems that sleepers tend defend themselves strongly when accused of being a cylon. Notice the difference betweem Galactica Cavil and Caprica Cavil in their responses to being accused. I know the Cylon Party comment does weaken the argument. Thoughts? --FrankieG 10:48, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

He wasn't a sleeper Agent as far as we know, in fact the easiness with which he "resumed" his Cylon status indicated that he was aware. The Caprican Cavil accepted it pretty quickly because eventually he planned to tell them, it was why he was there after all. The other Cavil still had his original mission to remain in secret. I take it sleepers normally don't respond well to the whole "Hey, you're a Cylon!" thing, which may be why boxing was invented, and was why Boomer had cuffs when she resurrected. --Sauron18 11:20 26 June 2006 (CDT)

In the continuity of the Miniseries novelization, Doral is a sleeper agent and he is discussed in great detail. His realization was like "flipping a switch." I know that doesn't mean much for the series, but I don't think that it is always a hard as Boomer found it. --FrankieG 11:45, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

I don't really think Cavil was a sleeper, because of how he acted with the Caprica copy. --BklynBruzer 18:51, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

Cavil and Caprica Six Revelations

I have a problem with the following statement: "They seem to have discovered many revelations that Caprica-Six realized through her "virtual" Baltar (Downloaded). Judging by this, the Cavil copies are probably among the first to flock to Caprica's banner." I think this amounts to pure speculation, and increasingly, bad speculation as we see that Cavil is (if anything) something of a general misanthrope. At any rate, I think there is no legitimate basis for concluding that Caprica Six and the Cavils share any particular insight or common viewpoint. Thoughts? --Felix Culpa 13:08, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

Number Two?

Hey, someone pointed out to me that it was edited on wikipedia[1] that Cavil's number is "Two" and that it was apparently revealed through close cationing. I'm not sure if this is canon, but if someone can tell me more info on this...

I'm assuming it's a mistake, and that whoever posted it confused the close captioning in LDYBII, when it says "Cavil#2" (to differentiate Cavils) and assumed it meant that was his model number, but I do not know.--Sauron18 16:00, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

I think that is, as you suspected, an error in captioning context. As well, I don't think that Cavil will sit well with being known as "number two." He's a dark fellow, will nuke your house, put you in front of a firing squad. --Spencerian 16:14, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

Amen, brother. But he won't nuke your house, he'll only reduce your family down to a more manageable number, say 2. But that is only after he puts you down with his pesimistic superiority and complains about a headache. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Straycat0 (talk • contribs).

And it will be done to instill fear into the people's hearts and minds, because as he sees it, fear is a key article of faith. --BklynBruzer 21:03, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Dean Stockwell said, in an interview, that he had been told he was number 2 --GMo >:M:< 21:52, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

No, what he said was -

"I turned out to be number three, Brother Cavil, of the significant seven."

My guess is he meant that he was the third Cylon revealed (since the mini) because the position of "number three" is already occupied. And he's not number 2, that was a mistake on someone, the captioning is not referring to that.--Sauron18 22:15, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

"Number Two: This is three downloads for me." that is the quote from the Captioning for Exodus Part I. I believe that the Evidence he is #2 has been presented. If it saying that on Sci-Fi Channel itself can't be counted as Canon what can? -- GMo >:M:< 22:35, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Well, aside from the fact that my captions don't say that, it's still close captioning, which has proven unreliable before. We can't consider it canon unless revealed in some other manner in which we can be sure it's not a mistake. --Sauron18 22:49, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Captions should be taken with a grain of salt, like the 54289/Viper 289 caption from Flight of the Phoenix. --Talos 23:22, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Agreed. Captions when there is two or more people that are the same, usually have #1 and #2. This is an error. Repated edits to indicate Cavil as number two will be considered vandlism under the BW:EW policy. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 00:37, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

Can we all agree that it should be added to his page and the Cylon Page under notes with a link to this discussion page. Not everyone goes right to the Discussion pages. -- GMo >:M:< 10:47, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

Rapture features additional (but unconclusive) evidence that Cavil may be Number Two:

Cavil suggests boxing the Threes
Cavil confronts and almost kills Three in an authoritarian fashion.
When Three wants to see the Final Five, Cavil says "that can't happen". This could be because, with Number One among the Final Five, he wouldn't want to lose his 'leadership status' when Number One is revealed.
It is Cavil who boxes the Threes. This may be because he came up with the idea in the first place, or because he represents whatever is left of the Cylons, making him either Two or Four.

It should be noted, however, that Cavil, despite his presumed leadership status, doesn't protest against the majority decision to attack and occupy the Colonies.

Well, there really isn't any reason to believe their numbers have anything to do with authority, so for now we are still left with the myster of his number. --Sauron18 06:56, 24 January 2007 (CST)

The model number has no relevance to authority, thats fanwanking, especially saying that the reason he doesnt want to know who number one is because he would then be second in command. The only evidence so far of the number designation is closed captions. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 07:32, 24 January 2007 (CST)

You are right in saying that it's never been confirmed the model numbers reflect authority. It's just an assumption on my part to even be able to speculate about Cavil's number, since throwing out the authority idea means all options are open and we can't really argue for any number, save for the closed captioning thing. On that count, I've asked Bradley Thompson whether the closed captions are canonical. --Catrope 09:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Bradley Thompson has neither confirmed nor denied that Cavil is Number Two, but he did shoot down the closed captioning thing. --Catrope 14:48, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Number 1? Here is some logic supporting that he is the earliest of the Cylons that has not been presented here:

When Cavil is introduced he states that he has been a preacher longer than Tyrol has been breathing. this may suggest that he was the first of (this cycle's?) human-form Cylons. The opportunity is there for him to have been planted into the colonies well before any plan of invasion.
He is entirely skeptical about the existence of the "One God", but first appears in the resident religion's garb. This would follow a logical step between the belief (by the primitive Cylons [Centurions]) that there are many gods and the Cylon "One God". This is parallel of the progression between Greek and Christian gods being the prevailing theology in western civilization (discounting Roman), which would have occured at the outset of the many new models.
Caprica Cavil and BSG Cavil discuss the mistake of invading the colonies in the first place. This would suggest a very pragmatic sort of personality, which would be emblematic of a first-generation new model. The first model would not necessarily have yet "evolved" in their new programming of belief in "One God".

This personality is repeated throughout the New Caprica occupation and pursuit of Earth in such actions as decimating the human population to "manageable size", making sure the Eye is not destroyed and boxing 3.

That's really just the way his model act, but it doesn't tell us anything about their number. We don't know whether they were built at the same time or whether the numbers actually mean anything. --Sauron18 06:47, 31 January 2007 (CST)

When you consider that Number Six was named as a homage to The Prisoner i'd be very wary about giving meaning to the numbers. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 07:44, 31 January 2007 (CST)

Main Image

Hey, I have been thinking on Cavil's main image for a while, though I like the present one, I've been trying to find out perhaps new images that show him as looking more, I don't know, active or something, but I'm not sure. There are 3 candidates, including the current one, so what do you think.

Which of these is better as a main image?

Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3

Thank you for your opinions. --Sauron18 00:01, 19 December 2006 (CST)

2. --BklynBruzer 12:45, 19 December 2006 (CST)

Actually, I like the picture of the Executioner Cavil with the black hat in the article. Sadistic bastard he is, although 3 is OK. --Spencerian 12:55, 19 December 2006 (CST)

Ditto with Spenc. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 15:13, 19 December 2006 (CST)

You mean the Promo from LDYBII? I actually edited one to fit in main image, Here it is:

Picture4

What do you think? --Sauron18 15:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)

Nope. Try the one on the main article in the New Caprica Copy section. --Spencerian 21:08, 19 December 2006 (CST)

Hmm...well that was the old one, but I remember it looked a bit....odd. --Sauron18 23:02, 19 December 2006 (CST)

With the recent airing of the S3 premiere on SkyOne HD, we have more options available. One in particular caught my eye(the one right above). What do you think about it? --Sauron18 20:18, 15 January 2007 (CST)

Thoughts? If you still prefer the promo from LDYBII, then we'll put that one, but I'm trying to find a shot of him that shows more of his features and such. --Sauron18 19:12, 26 January 2007 (CST)

"Keeper of Secrets"

In the "Rapture" podcast, RDM said he liked the idea of Cavil being like a keeper of secrets for the Cylons, one who knew more than the others about the Final Five and such. The episode did give me that feel, and it seems to me like he had seriousley intended to give that impression. So I'm thinking, should we include it in the notes section or something? --Sauron18 19:12, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Has RDM given any explantion about how Cavil just appears out of nowhere, first on Caprica in lay down your birdens, he just sort of ppaears outof nowhere spouting the cylons have gone home and everyone just accepts it. he wasn't a human that came with tyhe rescue team. Then in Rapture Deanna and Baltar go down to the planet alone, and there at the pivotal hour there he is with Deanna and Baltar when they first get intothe temple, then he's gone again when the "device" activates.

There is something very odd and evil about Cavil, his atheism sounds more like a speech from Lucifer discrediting god. Granted I am abit obsessed withthe relation bebtween the cylons, the lords of kobol and Abrehamic religions. The interplay is everywhere. I've notice this sight has jumped on the idea that the "jealous god" and the "one whose name cannot be spoken" are one and the same, and perhaos the Cylon God. Why would the human then have such reverence for the temple of Five and those five priests, if they were folowers of an evil god. If I'm not mistaken isn't the name "Yahweh" or "Jahovah" sort of not supposed to be spoken?

My point being Cavil's synicism can no more be taken at face value than anything else in the series.--Mevenstar 02:44, 22 February 2007 (CST)

He doesn't appear out of nowhere. On Rapture he went down with Baltar and D'Anna and a Leoben (though the scene with them was deleted), on LDYBII it's not really surprising that he just found his way to the group, or maybe even had been with them for a while now. --Sauron18 07:02, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Furthermore, in LDYB, Starbuck&Co. would think Cavil was just another member of the resistance they hadn't met yet, while Anders&Co. would think he was part of the rescue party. --Catrope 09:31, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Are edited scenes 100% legit? I mean when Deanna was heading down to tthe algae planet it was clear she was acting alone, where was cavil when Deanna hasd the vision or when Six told Baltar she wasn't the chosen one?Anders thought he was part part of the rescue party and Starbuck thought he was part of the resistence?--Mevenstar 03:18, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Like Sauron said before, the podcast for "Rapture" says there were more scenes showing Baltar, D'Anna, Cavil and a Leoben going down to the planet. Unfortunately, there were cut, which makes it seem like Cavil appeared out of nowhere and Leoben wasn't even there. The part about Starbuck and Anders refers to LDYB II, when no one noticed Cavil had suddenly joined them. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 09:25, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

White space

There's a big fat load of white space at the top of the article, and I can't see how to get rid of it. Any ideas? (probably due to a template) OTW 15:38, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

{{qualityarticle}} was guilty, fixed it. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 06:24, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

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