Talk:Dirty Hands/Archive 1

Episode Title Change?[edit]

The SciFi Schedule as Our Enemies, Ourselves as the episode after A Day in the Life on 2/25/07. --FrankieG 16:48, 7 January 2007 (CST)

Our Enemies, Ourselves was the original title before it was changed. See the BW:OC page for explanation by Bradley --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 09:01, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Locked Reason[edit]

Please read the blog here. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 23:00, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Predictions![edit]

Sorry these are so late in the week. I came down with something pretty horrible and, for a few days, was barely able to sit up, much less contribute to a Wiki. Anyway, I'm going to try to be a bit more serious with this one than I have in the last couple of weeks. I just don't have as much time to gaze into the crystal ball like I did between TEOJ and Rapture - not that that's a complaint in any way! As always, you can place your bets (in cubits; your Earth money is of no value to us) at my or BB's Talk pages.

Somebody of middling importance is gonna die this episode. The crystal ball is telling me it'll be Seelix, but my gut tells me it'll be Gaeta. I'd rather it was Seelix, but I feel they've been setting up Gaeta to take a bullet this whole season. I desperately hope they don't kill off Cally. Nicki Clyne is cuteness incarnate.
Galen Tyrol bucks authority in a big way and doesn't get away with it, thus breaking the Battlestar trend of getting away with stuff because Bill Adama needs you.
We find out why the Cylons have been so quiet: Boxing the Threes wasn't easy. The Threes didn't want to go and they caused a lot of damage on their way out. The entire Cylon expeditionary fleet (the Earth-bound fleet) is currently dead in space as a result, with no way to contact other Cylon ships. (They're out of range.)
The Colonials find abandoned spaceship repair facilities constructed and then abandoned by the 13th Tribe. They begin the long, slow process of repairing the damage to their own ships using equipment that's been floating in space for thousands of years and thus isn't in the best of shape, nor is it 100% safe to use. The round-the-clock, hazardous labor required to repair, adapt, and then use the equipment is what leads to Tyrol's strike.
Frustrated by his people's inability to repair their own base stars, Galvatron contacts the Colonial fleet, turning to his most hated enemies for help. The Colonials respond by sending the SuicideGirls in with nukes to wipe out the Cylons, but those pierced punkette pixie pilots pooch the plan and miss the Resurrection Ship.
Hot Dog finally sees Cottle about his rash. Cottle berates him and issues him some of his most closely-guarded medical supplies: A box of rubbers.

Should be an intense episode, overall. Some of these predictions are more in line with rest-of-season possibilities than single episode speculation, but they're from my gut. --Slander 13:56, 22 February 2007 (CST)

I've been mulling over how the Fleet might get some more aid to fix what they have, short of yet another escaped battlestar or some other deus ex machina device. The idea of finding old Thirteenth Tribe stuff makes sense; unlike the Colonials, the 13th Tribe PLANNED to leave, it seems, and had taken lots of materials to help them do so. A portable shipdock? Maybe. Sounds fun, anyhow.

On Gaeta: You're right; I thought it was Cally in this last episode, but was happily wrong. It's still up in the air. The problem with the lack of all Threes makes very good sense; the Cylons aren't good as individuals, and plucking the Threes away makes for a lot of disorientation. The last two "predictions" are on the mark, as usual. But wait--isn't the season 3 cliffhanger going to be a big battle between the insane intellects of Galvatron and Gaius Baltar and a new villain that knows both weaknesses in humanity and Cylon? What if the Colonials and Cylon get into a big fight above a planet that changes into a very perturbed Unicron!? --Spencerian 14:10, 22 February 2007 (CST)

I like the repair thing, Tigh's comment of "we'd need 3 months in dry dock just to fix the dents" got me thinking about repairing Galactica, but I imagined some kind of agreement with the Cylons (the Colonials using Cylon repair facilities in return for some other favor). I don't think someone's gonna die this episode (reason see spoiler box), but if someone does die, it'll be a deckhand, which will be the cause for Tyrols strike.

RDM confirmed someone major will die in Maelstrom, and two deaths in two episodes time seems a little over the top to me --Catrope 14:19, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Nobody on this show is safe. You should know this. Anyway, looks like Ol' Zombie Slander struck out this week. Like I said, though, they're more rest-of-season than single-episode. Looking back, I think it'd be too much of a deus ex machina to find anything more than minimal repair facilities left behind by the Thirteenth. Still, the Thirteenth had to get through that same star cluster, so it's doubtless they needed some fixing up by that point, too. Finding -and defending- repair facilities might make for a good arc for the last few episodes, especially if those facilities are barely functional from floating in space for four thousand years. I think it'd be more dramatic, however, to see the Fleet limping -falling apart, out of tylium, and at wits' end- into our Solar System. --Slander 14:57, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Doing Time[edit]

One of these days they need to throw Edward James Olmos in jail. When they do that every major character will have been in jail at some point. Whalepelt 23:23, 25 February 2007 (CST)

Is Baltar really from Aerelon?[edit]

There is a debate of whether Baltar is truly from Aerelon for myself at least. Even though he states it in his book and even does an Aerelon accent in front of Tyrol, that doesn't convince me that he indeed was from that colony. Several reasons why:

He wrote a book that's sole purpose seems geared towards sowing dissension and dissatisfaction amongst the "working class" of the fleet. This is truly reminiscent of how Karl Marx and other political writers of the same caliber wrote such materials to rally the working class to turn against the middle and upper class sections of society. What better way to gave a sympatheic ear to Baltar than to at least try to establish some sort of common heritage with his target audience.

Considering his intellect and the popular stereotypes that Cally had previously highlighted, it is not inconceivable for Baltar to do a fairly good imitation of an Aerelon's speech. This is similar to how some people may imitate an Italian or Boston accent on television shows. Even the actor who plays Lee Adama had to do an American accent for his role, even though he has a British accent in real life.

As it is unlikely that the Fleet would have a database of birth certificates for the entire human race on the twelve colonies, there is no reasonable factual way to confirm or deny where each person in the fleet truly came from. This loophole could allow a person like Baltar, who is trying to ensure his own survival, to create any sort of back story he deems necessary in order to ensure that he lives another day.

Roslin, during his strip search, appear to also show skepticism towards Baltar's claim to have come up from the poor colonies and rose to prominence amongst the upper class. This would indicate that either she simply can't imagine Baltar as an Aerelon, or she knows enough of his background that he was lying.

Anyhows, those are some of my thoughts on Baltar's claim. I honestly don't trust a single word that comes out of this man. He has shown again and again that he will twist whatever facts that there are to paint himself in the light of a victim. He has never taken full responsibility for how he allowed a security breach to occur with the defense program nor has he ever shown any true moment of repentance except at the times when he was truly afraid that he was going to die. --LifeStar 12:40, 26 February 2007 (CST)

I tend to agree with your thoughts on this, however I should point out that his Sky One biography notes that he was born on a farm. Granted, much of it seems to be incorrect, but it's food for thought. After all, the best lies are the ones inside a truth... -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 20:38, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Finally got to listen to the podcast for this episode. You were right that Baltar was born on a farm, but RDM had his planet of origin changed to Aerelon now instead of Saggitaron. He indeed create an accent that would allow him to pass as a Caprican. Changed / removed all counter arguments to that new info now.--LifeStar 12:51, 27 February 2007 (CST)

So Baltar wasn't faking it after all, unlike, perhaps, Number Six... ;-) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 15:23, 27 February 2007 (CST)

A dub over?[edit]

When President Roslin and Tyrol are talking on board Colonial One about the kids and families working in the refinery ship. Roslin agrees with Tyrol and says:

"That's a really good point. Tory I want you to make a list of every one in the fleet who has a work history appropriate to the refinery: factory workers, mechanics, whatever you think. Give it to the chief. I want you to hold a public lottery, and we will take people from other vessels and we will put them on shifts in the <REFINERY>. How's that chief?"

I can't quite make out what she is actually saying. And it does not look like "Daru Mozu". Thebairyhum 21:21, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Now, that you say it, it indeed looks like it was dubbed over. From the mouth it appears that Roslin is saying two words. Btw, sign your at the end by using four tildes: --~~~~ --Serenity 20:27, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Concur. I immediately noticed the ADR and rewound to watch/hear it again. I can't tell what she was originally saying. That's sometimes the realm of the podcast to reveal, but alas, we are again without podcast. (And lo, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.) --Steelviper 20:34, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Ejection of Raptor[edit]

did the back ECO seat(comp console seat) eject to? If it didnt would a Eco sitting back there be screwed?--Snorkel378 20:41, 26 February 2007 (CST)Snorkel378

No, the ECO seat did not eject, which is why Racetrack told Skulls to get up front before ejecting. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 21:29, 26 February 2007 (CST)

The NPOV tag has been removed[edit]

I removed the NPOV tag and also surprised that a new discussion point for it wasn't even created after it was issued. How are we suppose to talk about these commentary points without someone putting in the discussion topic? Anyhows, the two points I removed from the analysis section were:

However, it is worth remembering that, historically, revolutions rarely take place at the worst of times. They usually occur in periods just after testing or trying times. If 'Galactica's' writers have done their jobs well, and if Tyrol's efforts lead to better working conditions and a more equitable sharing of burdens, then we might be in for more civil unrest. This unrest will likely occur or coincide with Baltar's trial. A true revolutionary, like Tom Zarek, who is also an astute observer of political and popular trends, will know this, and might explain why he was so upset at Roslin's decision to try Baltar. It also calls into question his absence during this episode. He would have been perfect to run point on these issues for the administration.

Response: First, this point is really a commentary and does not expand much on using the actual material in the episode. Secondly, that bit about Zarek is incorrect. The podcast from The Woman King explained that he was originally upset that Baltar was going to be tried because he was afraid that Baltar would implicate him in the slaughter of many Saggitarons on New Caprica before the Cylon invasion. There was a deleted scene that had Zarek visit Baltar to determine what Baltar was planning on bringing up during his trial. Eventually the Saggitaron theme was dropped from the trial so everything else, including the original reasons why Zarek was upset had to be dropped as well so that the rest of the storyline would be streamlined and focused more on Baltar's actual recorded deeds (on what the audience has seen). --LifeStar 08:38, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Baltar's actions and attitudes reflect a great deal of hypocrisy and self loathing. One one hand he is the ultimate aristocrat, living luxuriously with many expensive vices with an affected accent, and on the other hand he appears to hold the upper class in as much contempt as the working class people he grew up with. His words condemn the life and people he knew as he grew up, casting those people in the light of being nothing more than ignorant drunks and barroom brawlers that "worked with their hands", and he did everything he could to make sure that he was never actually identified with his roots.

Response: This is more of a commentary that is based on the assumption that Baltar was telling the truth that he really was from Aerelon and grew up as a farm boy. It is also assuming that he wasn't attempting to play on Tyrol's emotion state and not using the overall fleet's pent up resentment that the majority of the fleet leadership are from the higher class colonies, like Caprica. Even Baltar's question to Tyrol about whether he believed that the fleet would ever be led by anyone besides an "Adama" was geared to get under Tyrol's skin and not so much of real concern for the fleet. --LifeStar 08:38, 27 February 2007 (CST)

The first point is just too opinionated and speculative and has no place in an article. The second is valid though, but it's not a place to again ask if Baltar told to the truth - which I'm inclined to believe. It's somewhat hypocritical in any case, so the issue isn't that important. No matter his origins, he has risen to a position of wealth and prominence even before the Cylon attack, and after it into a position of power. He's probably just trying to stir up popular sympathy for his trial. --Serenity 09:14, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Concur on the first point. As for the second point... I'm not sure how much self-loathing there actually is. It looks like a power play and grandstanding. I'm sure Baltar would argue that it isn't hypocrisy since he's admitted his (titled) mistakes, and decided to "embrace" his "common" heritage. However, I'm not sure how much analysis of that is necessary when they pretty much explicitly spell that out in the episode (particularly in the dialogue between Tyrol and Baltar). --Steelviper 09:21, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Why "Marxist-Leninist"?[edit]

I don't see any clear parallels between Baltar's book and Marxism-Leninism (as is alleged in the Analysis section). What's so far been revealed about the book strikes me as more generically populist rather than specifically Leninist. Baltar, like Lenin, seeks the support of the working class, but so have leaders in practically every social movement of any importance, right across the political spectrum from fascism to anarchism. If I've missed some detail of Baltar's revolutionary teachings that marks him out as a Leninist, then this should be included in the article. Otherwise, I think the Marxism-Leninism reference should be removed.--Steve 05:27, 1 March 2007 (CST)

There were no comments on this matter, so I went ahead and removed the Marxist-Leninist reference. I also removed the apparent assertion that class and ethnic divisions are not "real issues" in the Fleet. --Steve 03:54, 2 March 2007 (CST)

Fine by me. If somebody wants to say Marxist, Leninist, or Flying Spaghetti Monsterist, they should back it up. --Steelviper 12:13, 2 March 2007 (CST)