Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

Merge proposal

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --Peter Farago 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --Peter Farago 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --Day 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I'm leaving this one up to QuintusCinna, our resident flag-hunter. --Peter Farago 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. QuintusCinna

At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --Peter Farago 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --Fang Aili 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --QuintusCinna 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --Peter Farago 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --Fang Aili 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --Peter Farago 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --Fang Aili 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --Fang Aili 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --Peter Farago 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <div> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([1]), and I've been trying to learn from the Extended image syntax page. I can't figure out why a new section like ==Caprica== doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --Fang Aili 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Ah ha! The wonders of <br style="clear:both;">! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --Fang Aili 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.

I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:

Aerelon, Canceron, Caprica, Gemenon, Picon, Sagittaron, Scorpion, Tauron, Virgon

These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --Peter Farago 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --Fang Aili 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --Peter Farago 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --Day 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. Spencerian 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Which flag is which?

A close viewing of Colonial Day indicates that the flag currently labeled as Tauron belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --Peter Farago 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in Colonial Day. The reason I say this is that Tom Zarek is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: Virgon, Picon, Caprica, Aerelon, Gemenon, Scorpion, Aquaria(?), Tauron, Libra (?), Sagittaron, Canceron (?), Leonis. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius. --QuintusCinna 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

New Icons

What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --Peter Farago 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

It looks fine. --Fang Aili 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --Day 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

Residence vs. Tribe

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what tribe" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone from Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen. --Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

Outposts

Ricimer wrote: The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as Troy) in other systems (RDM, January 30, 2005), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.

RDM's actual comments are:

Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that Galactica will encounter them in the course of the series. (January 30, 2005)

--Peter Farago 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

Scorpion vs. Scorpia

At present, we have a name card from "Colonial Day" and the name of the Scorpia Traveler in favor of "Scorpia", and the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you must cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --Peter Farago 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "early concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "Colonial Day" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first prominent mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --Ricimer 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. Gemenon Taveller and the Gemini. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the Scorpia Traveller, for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.

However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpian fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpion, thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --Mason 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:

1. We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
2. We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
3. We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.

We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --Peter Farago 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of Pegasus' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --Ricimer 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even heard "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --Peter Farago 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --Mason 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)

How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --Peter Farago 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I think she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --Ricimer 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --Talos 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Thank you Talos. --Ricimer 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)

Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "[piɑn] , while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, [piən] or [piɨn] . The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --Peter Farago 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)

I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it here. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.

Note, by the way, that the animal spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --Peter Farago 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Location

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --Day 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)