Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

Lords of Kobol

Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --PrePressChris 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+

The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --Spencerian 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.

Where is the list of names you mentioned? --PrePressChris 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --Spencerian 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --PrePressChris 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --Ublej 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)

The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --Serenity 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

More Cowbell

Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --Steelviper 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)

Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --Steelviper 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

• The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

• This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --Spencerian 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:

That the main voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

Case in point my new Mythological references page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --Serenity 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

I concur. Whereever we can keep the in-universe voice, great. Where out-of-universe comparisons must be in line with the text to keep the article germane and sensible, it's also fine. The recent articles you built/rebuilt exemplify good uses of that practice. --Spencerian 14:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance. With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting, but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are. Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to, while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol. My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race, refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me. But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned. Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

I think a more likely explanation is that whoever designed the humanoid cylons chose to use the lords as an inspiration or possibly the design was intended to mock the 12 lords and thus humanity itself. They chose 12 archetypes to define humanity saying basically all of you have one of these 12 personality types and that's it. I don't think the lords are using the cylons as avatars. Sounds too mystical. I also don't think time travel is involved and that somehow the cylons will one day go back into the past and become the lords.

I don't really have a theory on exactly what the lords of kobol are but I do think the cylon god is a rogue lord of kobol. I also think the 13th tribe worshipped this rogue lord first. The 13th tribe left kobol because the other 12 pagan tribes were sacrifing humans and indulging in cannibalism. They first found the algae planet and built the temple of five which was dedicated to the five priests who worshipped the one whose name cannot be mentioned. This one whose name cannot be mentioned is almost certainly a rogue lord of kobol. If the priests were worshipping this one god this tells me the entire 13th tribe had the one god.

Throughout the series we have seen the cylons talk about revelations from god and talk of his commandments. What is the source for this divine inspiration? I suspect the 12 colonies like we in the real world had scholars who studied ancient religions in the real world. They had reference books, academic papers, unearthed archeological artifacts and various other things that set out to paint a picture of what the 13th tribe was like. This information about the 13th tribe and their worship of the one god was known to the mechanical cylons before work on the humanoid models began and became the foundation of the cylon religion.

The cylons have (more or less) adopted the religion of the 13th tribe. The commandments they speak of are what God demanded of the 13th tribe (an example god commands them to procreate). The humanoid models may not even be entirely aware that their religion mirrors the 13th tribe's ancient religion. This desire to find earth is also part of this borrowed (and possibly distorted) religion. The cylons want to find earth because according to their religion earth is the promised land...and it probably was...for the 13th colony. Meteor 12:06, 30 January 2007.

Lords of Kobol vs other gods

I don't think it's sensible to assume that every god or goddess mentioned is a Lord of Kobol. Case in point Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn. The Greeks didn't just have the Twelve Olympians (after whom the Lords seem to directly modeled after), but also minor deities. No reason the Colonials shouldn't as well. Another example is Nike, who is mentioned - even if not by name - in "Torn". She hang around with Zeus, and is often portrayed together with Athena, but is not a real Olympian.
I suggest we have another header called "Other gods" or "Other deities" for those, with maybe a footnote stating that their status is uncertain. --Serenity 10:08, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

I've generally felt that any god mentioned in the context of worship was a Lord of Kobol--the Colonials are very monotheistic. However, since we don't have clearer contexts for some, such as names used in Temple or something, it may be safe not to read too much into them. Some could be counterparts to saints for all we know. I agree that the Olympian/Titan arguments are meaningless here since Roman versions and other religions get mixed about. I generally agree with your comments. --Spencerian 11:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

The Colonials use Greek and Roman names interchangeably, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Olympian/Lords of Kobol parallel. I just have a feeling that that are just twelve Lords of Kobol who are direct parallel to the ancient Olympians. However, there have been a lot of mentions of other mythological figures and gods, especially in the ship names. Or usually when asked about believes it's more "Do you believe in the gods?" instead of "Do you believe in the Lords of Kobol". There is no definite statement that "gods" refers to the Lords of Kobol exclusively, even if they are clearly the main gods. Could go either way. --Serenity 12:06, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

They're certainly polytheistic, not monotheistc, please read the definitions carefully. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 12:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

I meant "poly" and mistyped. Thanks. The notion that there are twelve Lords of Kobol is a TOS misconception that seems to have moved to RDM; I don't know of a citation for that. It's a lot easier to say "gods" than "Lords of Kobol", of course. While there could be other monothesistic or polythestic faiths with the Colonials, only one "sect" or denomination has been established officially: the five priests of the Temple of Five. Must be significant: they got a temple out of it in the middle of nowhere. -- Spencerian 12:13, 18 April 2007 (CDT) ^{(Talk - Contribs - WonderNumbers)}

I get what you're saying, but I noticed a tendency here lately to push one kind of agenda, when there isn't much concrete evidence to pursue another equally valid interpretation. Obviously something needs to be written, but lack of concrete evidence for point A doesn't prove point B. There is no evidence for there being more than 12 Lords of Kobol either, though Occam's Razor would probably come to that conclusion then. But there are theories that the Lords were originally human leaders of the tribes who were deified later (even before the exodus from Kobol). It's speculation, but agrees with the quotes from the scriptures...As said, it could be either way.

However, this has nothing to do with different faiths. Nothing prevents a worshiper of the Lord of Kobol to also recognize or worship certain either deities. The ancient Greeks didn't only worship the Olympians for example. Exclusive worship is somewhat of a monotheistic concept. --Serenity 12:36, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

I don't think we even know if all the named Olympians are Lords of Kobol. Maybe "Lords of Kobol" is synonymous with "the gods", maybe it refers exclusively to the Olympian Dodekatheon, maybe it includes the Dodekatheon and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, maybe it only includes a few of the Olympians. -- Gordon Ecker 18:35, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

My point is that we haven't been explicitly told of any other faiths, which differs from the number of gods. A single god can be worshipped differently based on many different faith structures, such as the Jews and Christians do. We haven't been given any data that suggests that their are other central faith structures other than the Lords of Kobol and God (with the five priests' diety being a possible exception). There are obviously different "denominations", for lack of a better term (Gemonese and Sagittarons do this), but I don't tend to interpret matters any further. Be it 10 or 10,000 Lords, they may fall under the same central faith structure. We don't know, so I don't try to interpret it much, but just drop it in the place that best fits. --Spencerian 18:47, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

Agreed. There is only evidence of one religion practiced in the twelve colonies, with various sects, denominations and personal interpretations, however it seems to be, for the most part, relatively uniform. There are two possible exceptions, however both of them may be particularly divergent sects / denominations of the colonial religion. -- Gordon Ecker 19:28, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

I disagree with the assumption that Aurora is a Lord of Kobol. She may be a god, but that doesn't make her a Lord of Kobol. I don't think anyone familiar with Greek mythology would think she fits with Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, etc.

I disagree with the assumption that Jupiter is just another name for Zeus and Mars is just another name for Ares. This has not been demonstrated on the show. However, I do realize that I'm the only one who thinks this way and that no one can grasp that they might be slightly different entities, like one a clone of the other. What if Jupiter is the Cylon God, while Zeus is a Colonial god. Think of the sacrilege your Wiki page is committing then!!! Remember only a Cylon has ever mentioned the god Jupiter. The Sacred Scrolls have (thus far) never mentioned this god - only Zeus, Hera, and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, whom I think is Jupiter. The temple of Five is for the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, and the Sacred Scrolls tell us that the Eye of Jupiter is in the Temple of Five. Do the math. --MHall 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

About Hera

I've recently gone through several Lord of Kobol articles and removed the Greek mythological references since this information isn't needed here (we're not a general encyclopedia) and because the Earth information doesn't always mesh with the series information. Right now, there's enough references for each Lord to stand on their own without out-of-universe comparisons.

One note about Hera. In our mythology she is the wife AND sister of Zeus (gross as that might be to some). I was about to revert Mudflap's recent deletion of the "sister" part when I realized after checking that the show has NOT noted this element of Hera in its own mythology. So, that stands for now. As I said, there is sufficient mythology generated by the show itself now to avoid adding much from our universe to theirs. --Spencerian 08:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Selloi: I have a message for you from the o­ne you worship. He speaks through me to you just as he speaks in your dreams. The message is... the fruit born of two peoples [Three's smile fades.] is alive. A child named after the wife and sister of the all-knowing Zeus. Hera lives.

So, Hera is wife and sister of Zeus. I think somewhere on the page it says Zeus is the head God of the Colonials. What if Hera is the head God of the Colonials instead? I don't think it's been established that Zeus is the head God for the Colonials. He is all-knowing, true. --MHall 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Original Series definition: a title of nobility (e.g. Lord Baltar)

Original Series definition: a title of nobility (e.g. Count Iblis)