Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

Episode Impressions

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --Bane Grievver 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Not bad at all. Joe McCullough 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -Sgtpayne 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Great Episode I thought. The abortion debate was an fascinating piece of art imitating life in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as the show continues. --Simmons 10:55, 19 February 2006 (EST)

With the last few episodes, I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with the apparently magical powers of RDM and his writing team. This episode is more like what I (and, I think, we all) have come to expect from Galactica. Shred 13:47, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Not ANOTHER Commander!

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --Spencerian 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? Joe McCullough 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -Sgtpayne 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --Bane Grievver 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the Pegasus lost its two seniormost officers) and perhaps Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of Galactica, it should have went to him.--み使い Mitsukai 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --Bane Grievver 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--み使い Mitsukai 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. Michael 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)

As much as it was a breach in protocol, Col. Tigh might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from Scattered, that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -Sgtpayne 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)

True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --み使い Mitsukai 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

The passing over of Colonel Tigh for the post of Pegasus Commander needs to be addressed at a later time I believe. Either he was offered the position and passed, his attitude to receiving a command as stated in "Scattered" was well known to Admiral Adama and he knew the offer of promotion would be rejected or Admiral Adama decided he needed him where he was...Hopefully this will be addressed in a later episode. A throwaway line from Admiral Adama to Colonel Tigh such as "Im glad you stayed" or "You know it was yours if you wanted it" would wrap it up and end this speculation! :)--Simmons 10:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --Rexpop 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. Zahir 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Apollo was indeed promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows. Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --Strato

On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee. There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others.

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers.

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job.

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --Rexpop 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --Peter Farago 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Survivor Count

The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that Billy is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for Sacrifice it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--Antagonist 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.

--The Merovingian 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --Antagonist 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still happen, and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a Net loss of six, and so forth. --The Merovingian 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. Rocky8311 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right. --Antagonist 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Tigh and Seniority

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. Rocky8311 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --The Merovingian 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--The Merovingian 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Pegasus Technology / Technicalities

Landing Strips & Weaponry

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode. It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips. when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--Strato

Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively. This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --Zeratul 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the camera angle to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--The Merovingian 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--Jedivulcan

I hope they don't bother. --Peter Farago 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4 Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's". For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--Strato

See the Science in the Re-imagined Series article for discussion on artificial gravity. I'm betting more on magnetism on this: Why? Watch the Miniseries, when Colonial Heavy 798 first docks on Galactica for the decomissioning ceremonies. You'll see two spacesuited workers who are floating while they're working. If this was gravity, these guys would NOT float. Doesn't give us a direct answer, but it eliminates "selective" gravity adjustments. Confirm this with how the Vipers make combat landings; they bounce a lot. --Spencerian 23:20, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Class Capability

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:

Mercury class battlestars do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the Galactica type.

I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since Mercury-class Battlestars cannot retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the Mercury-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on Galactica's class is anyone's guess — it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically — but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- Hawke 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I could see the retractable flight pods on the Galactica type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck. I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like Colonial One when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- Kahran 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I'm restoring this. We may have suspected that Pegasus can't and/or doesn't retract its flight pods, but before this episode, but we didn't know.--Peter Farago 01:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

"Property"?

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter? I don't know. --The Merovingian 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --Peter Farago 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I do not understand. Further, how could she be "property"?--The Merovingian 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)

In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens of the United States, but to all persons within the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --Peter Farago 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)

"To Be, or Not... To Be"

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:

Roslin references Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice when she asks Delegate Sarah Porter if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the Colonies.

I think that the phrase "pound of flesh" has become quite familiar in modern culture and literary circles, such that it really doesn't warrant significance in citing. It has been used in countless movies and TV episodes without citation (not that I think a phrase can be copyrighted to such an extent), and I haven't seen the writers of Law & Order state, "Yeah, we intentionally alluded to Shakespeare, and wanted the lawyer to give that impression that he was alluding to Shakespeare when he said it in court". Yes, I'm probably going to an extreme, but really, this is just a case of a scriptwriter putting this phrase into the script, and almost certainly has nothing to do with whether or not Shakespeare is familiar to The Colonies. This isn't the Klingons quoting Hamlet. -- Hawke 21:45, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I'm also restoring this. The phrase may have a more general meaning, but it is impossible not to make the association with Shakespeare when hearing it. --Peter Farago 01:52, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand by my original action, more so than the other removal I undertook. It is excessive "over-think" to assume (or, create the assumption) that everything spoken in the dialogue must have explanation in or correlation to "canon" terms. "Pound of flesh" is a term, a phrase, plain and simple... and while its origin here is attributed to Shakespeare, it does not mean, nor imply, that Shakespeare exists in this storyline, or that Shakespeare was somehow influenced by Colonial writing, or that Shakespeare is, or could be, or should be, any part of this storyline. This storyline and Shakespearean writing are completely exclusive of each other, with the exception being, perhaps, that writers here may take dramatic or stylistic cues from Shakespeare (or any other classes of writers). Hey, they're only Human too. -- Hawke 02:06, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Look, in general, I agree with you that it's not desirable to read too much into things - no, the freighter "greenleaf" is not a Legolas reference, for example. This, however, is very clear. I am going to restore it again for now, and I would like you to leave it be until at least a few others weigh in. At that point, I will be happy to abide by consensus. --Peter Farago 02:56, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand with Farago. Utterly. Two to one, motion stands.--The Merovingian 03:01, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Please remember that, when content is disputed due to interpretation (as opposed to sources), our policy is to generally leave the item within the article and to work here on Talk (as done) to gain consensus before leaving the item in permanently. If consensus cannot be reached, one of the Administrators here (or other contributor) can call for a vote. --Spencerian 10:17, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I adjusted the statement slightly to be more ambiguous. I'm not against the mention of a snippet or insight like this — but, I'm completely opposed to extending an insight into speculation, especially when it involves linking to or placement in the canon storyline. The contributor who first placed that statement (Alphaboi867) hasn't "shown up" to defend it, and I strongly feel that the original phrasing of it is ungrounded speculation that is linking Shakespeare to the storyline, where no such link has been indicated by TPTB to exist. -- Hawke 15:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Hawke suggests:

The script for Laura Roslin references Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, when she asks Delegate Sarah Porter if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear as to if the writers are somehow placing Shakespeare's work into the story of Colonies, or if this is just a random "use of phrase" by an inspired scriptwriter.

This seems verbose. Just stating that she's quoting shakespeare shouldn't imply any position on whether or not he exists in the BSG universe. How about simply stating this in notes:

Laura Roslin quotes Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when she tells Delegate Sarah Porter that she's gotten her "pound of flesh".

And, if we feel the need to discuss the implication of this quotation, doing so under Analysis. --Peter Farago 15:10, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I would be agreeable to this, so long as it is prefaced with "The script (or dialogue) for Laura Roslin... (rest of your statement)". I know I'm dicing onions, but I think it's crucial that there is no implication that Shakespeare exists in The Colonies unless or until it is substantiated further. -- Hawke 15:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)

"Writer Jeff Vlaming references Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when he has Laura Roslin tell Delegate Sarah Porter, "you have your pound of flesh."? --Peter Farago 15:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Councillor -> Delegate

I changed the instances of Councillor to Delegate per Article 3 Section 1 of the Standards and Conventions. If events occur such that we need to reevaluate the standard title for members of the Quorum, we should probably take it over to the talk at S&C (so that it will be applied everywhere). --Steelviper 22:46, 18 February 2006 (EST)