|
|
| (440 intermediate revisions by 54 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| == Please aid in concision == | | {{Template:Archive-bot |
| | |maxarchivesize = 120K |
| | |counter = 3 |
| | |algo = old(60d) |
| | |archive = Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive%(counter)d |
| | }} |
| | {{ArchiveTOC}} |
|
| |
|
| This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | {{talk page warning}} |
| :Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
|
| |
|
| =="At least" 2 years== | | == You Will Know the Truth == |
|
| |
|
| No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | I found a [http://jamesjacob77.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-is-final-cylon_29.html blog post] that links to [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/ this page on scifi.com]. They've also got a [http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2319583&st=0 forum thread] on it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| :I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | == [[Zak Adama]]? == |
|
| |
|
| ::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | It's possible that Zak Adama is the final Cylon. The main reason I say this is because of [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s line in [[Flesh and Bone]]: "Adama is a Cylon." I don't think that it's William Adama, Apollo, or by extension Dualla. Is this viable enough for inclusion in the article? --[[User:JemHadar359|JemHadar359]] 05:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| | :In this article on SyFy Portal[http://www.syfyportal.com/news425609.html], Michael Hinman claims that they have received confirmation of the identity of the final Cylon from multiple sources, and claims that the final Cylon is one of five characters listed in the article. Zak Adama is not on the list. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| | : As I said before—and forgive me for soundin' like a broken record—but this article will be dead in its present (and the ColdBoot form) before the season ends anyway. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| :::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | == Just a feeling. . . == |
|
| |
|
| ::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
| | that the final cylon will be someone that there's been no speculation about. Someone right out of left field. Personally, I'd like to think it's. . . Romo Lampkin. [[User:Centurion 51773|Centurion 51773]] 16:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC) |
| :::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)
| |
|
| |
|
| == Billy's Entry == | | == What about Number Seven? == |
| There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| :Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| ::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
|
| |
|
| Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)
| | Do we have any information about the existence or nonexistence of Number Seven? In many interviews and articles, it has been stated that the Final Five don't have model numbers, so it couldn't be any of them. Has the issue of Number Seven been addressed in any interviews? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | : Not yet you don't. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | :: Since the Final Five are actually older, Seven must have been a failed model. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| :If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| | == Archiving rather than deleting == |
| ::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)
| |
|
| |
|
| :Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)
| | I can't say I'll miss all the fanwanking we did on this page and its sisters, but I think it'll be a hoot to leave these pages as of Ellen Tigh's reveal, locked with a note about the relative history of how contributors jerked themselves around trying to formulate a logic for the last Cylons. The main articles would be protected as well as the talk pages for people to smile and laugh at (especially the producers and writers who probably made ''sure'' we were wrong! ;) Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | :Sure, archive it. Though I will point out that if you read the [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/ColdBoot]] replacement that I started for it 6 months ago, it would in fact have led the reader to probably pick Ellen. Not sure why my efforts to get it live never amounted to anyting, but "nyah, nyah, I told you so..." :-) So archive that too. --[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 09:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| == Apollo's Entry ==
| | ::I'd say you'd get dibs on that prediction, Brad. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | ***Ellen was on a LOT of shortlists. Her mysterious survival, and then Saul being a Cylon... [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 20:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC) |
| Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]
| |
| | |
| : Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| :Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| == Baltar's Entry ==
| |
| | |
| Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| | |
| :::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
| |
| My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
| |
| :*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
| |
| :*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
| |
| :*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
| |
| :*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
| |
| :So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| *I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| :In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| == Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==
| |
| | |
| "According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."
| |
| | |
| It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
| |
| --[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| :Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)
| |
| | |
| :: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| == Lay Down Your Burdens ==
| |
| | |
| Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| :Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| ::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| :They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| == The Chief? ==
| |
| | |
| What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.
| |
| | |
| Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
| |
| :Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
| |
| ::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| ::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
| |
| :::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Analysis==
| |
| | |
| I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| : Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] <sup>([[User talk:Day|talk]])</sup> 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Baltar as Cylon Zero==
| |
| | |
| I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006
| |
| | |
| :After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| :::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| ::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
| |
| :::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| ::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| :::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Restructuring==
| |
| I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| :Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] <sup>([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]])</sup> 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| == Chief and Cally + Company ==
| |
| | |
| We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.
| |
| | |
| For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):
| |
| | |
| *Laura Roslin
| |
| *Tory Foster
| |
| *Cheif
| |
| *Helena Cain
| |
| *Tom Zarek
| |
| *Kara Thrace
| |
| *Cally
| |
| *Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)
| |
| | |
| --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| :::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| ::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] <sup>([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]])</sup> 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| | |
| Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| == The Doctor ==
| |
| | |
| Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
| |
| :You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| == Cleanup Required ==
| |
| | |
| This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| == Zak Adama? ==
| |
| | |
| Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
| |
| :B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]<sup>([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]])</sup> 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| | |
| == Felix Gaeta ==
| |
| One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.
| |
| | |
| Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
| |
| --[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]
| |
| | |
| :Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ==Removing "Past Affiliation"==
| |
| | |
| Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| :The association criterion should be deleted.
| |
| | |
| :The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)
| |
| | |
| :I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.
| |
| | |
| :None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]<sup>([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]])</sup> 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| == POV problem. ==
| |
| | |
| All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT) | |
| | |
| ::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.
| |
| | |
| ::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| :::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| ::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| ::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| :::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
| |
| As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
| |
| Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
| |
| :"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
| |
| ::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| ::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
| |
| :::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| ::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
| |
| ::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
| | |
| :::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
| |
| :::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
| |
