|
|
| (513 intermediate revisions by 59 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| == Please aid in concision == | | {{Template:Archive-bot |
| | |maxarchivesize = 120K |
| | |counter = 3 |
| | |algo = old(60d) |
| | |archive = Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive%(counter)d |
| | }} |
| | {{ArchiveTOC}} |
|
| |
|
| This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | {{talk page warning}} |
| :Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
|
| |
|
| =="At least" 2 years== | | == You Will Know the Truth == |
|
| |
|
| No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | I found a [http://jamesjacob77.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-is-final-cylon_29.html blog post] that links to [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/ this page on scifi.com]. They've also got a [http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2319583&st=0 forum thread] on it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| :I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | == [[Zak Adama]]? == |
|
| |
|
| ::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | It's possible that Zak Adama is the final Cylon. The main reason I say this is because of [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s line in [[Flesh and Bone]]: "Adama is a Cylon." I don't think that it's William Adama, Apollo, or by extension Dualla. Is this viable enough for inclusion in the article? --[[User:JemHadar359|JemHadar359]] 05:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| | :In this article on SyFy Portal[http://www.syfyportal.com/news425609.html], Michael Hinman claims that they have received confirmation of the identity of the final Cylon from multiple sources, and claims that the final Cylon is one of five characters listed in the article. Zak Adama is not on the list. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| | : As I said before—and forgive me for soundin' like a broken record—but this article will be dead in its present (and the ColdBoot form) before the season ends anyway. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| :::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| | == Just a feeling. . . == |
|
| |
|
| ::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
| | that the final cylon will be someone that there's been no speculation about. Someone right out of left field. Personally, I'd like to think it's. . . Romo Lampkin. [[User:Centurion 51773|Centurion 51773]] 16:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC) |
| :::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)
| |
|
| |
|
| == Billy's Entry == | | == What about Number Seven? == |
| There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| :Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| ::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)
| |
|
| |
|
| Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)
| | Do we have any information about the existence or nonexistence of Number Seven? In many interviews and articles, it has been stated that the Final Five don't have model numbers, so it couldn't be any of them. Has the issue of Number Seven been addressed in any interviews? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | : Not yet you don't. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | :: Since the Final Five are actually older, Seven must have been a failed model. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| :If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| | == Archiving rather than deleting == |
| ::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)
| |
|
| |
|
| == Apollo's Entry ==
| | I can't say I'll miss all the fanwanking we did on this page and its sisters, but I think it'll be a hoot to leave these pages as of Ellen Tigh's reveal, locked with a note about the relative history of how contributors jerked themselves around trying to formulate a logic for the last Cylons. The main articles would be protected as well as the talk pages for people to smile and laugh at (especially the producers and writers who probably made ''sure'' we were wrong! ;) Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | :Sure, archive it. Though I will point out that if you read the [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/ColdBoot]] replacement that I started for it 6 months ago, it would in fact have led the reader to probably pick Ellen. Not sure why my efforts to get it live never amounted to anyting, but "nyah, nyah, I told you so..." :-) So archive that too. --[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 09:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]
| | ::I'd say you'd get dibs on that prediction, Brad. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | ***Ellen was on a LOT of shortlists. Her mysterious survival, and then Saul being a Cylon... [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 20:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC) |
| : Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| :Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| == Baltar's Entry ==
| |
| | |
| Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| | |
| :::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
| |
| My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
| |
| :*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
| |
| :*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
| |
| :*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
| |
| :*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
| |
| :So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| *I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST) | |
| | |
| ::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| ::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| :In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| == Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==
| |
| | |
| "According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."
| |
| | |
| It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
| |
| --[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| :Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)
| |
| | |
| :: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST) | |
| | |
| == Lay Down Your Burdens ==
| |
| | |
| Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| :Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| ::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| :They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| == The Chief? ==
| |
| | |
| What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.
| |
| | |
| Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
| |
| | |
| if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)
| |
| | |
| :I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
| |
| :Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
| |
| ::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
| |
