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| == To <s>quote</s> paraphrase Bill Pullman from ''ID4''... "Let's nuke the bastard." == | | == You Will Know the Truth == |
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| To offer a different perspective from ColonelKevin's point, I think this article really needs to be airlocked and approached in a completely different light. I've really felt this way from the get go, but my feelings are reinforced by the fact that this is the last and final season, and the article will then enter a state of total and complete obsolescence, particularly from an "out of universe perspective".
| | I found a [http://jamesjacob77.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-is-final-cylon_29.html blog post] that links to [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/ this page on scifi.com]. They've also got a [http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2319583&st=0 forum thread] on it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC) |
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| What I am proposing is that the article be written to detail "in universe" Cylon speculation and how they've dealt with the threat of Cylons looking human. I'm looking at documenting the overall human reaction to this, which would include things like [[Sesha Abinell]]'s conspiracy theories, the Colonials attempts at a Cylon detector, the Fleet leadership's concerns about releasing the information before "[[Litmus]]", etc. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
| | == [[Zak Adama]]? == |
| :I think it's "Nuke 'em. Let's nuke the bastards.". And.. I agree. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
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| :: You're right, Mr. Quotables... I meant "paraphrasing". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
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| :::Seems like a good idea. From what I can infer, most, if not all, of the in-universe early-S4 speculation will be on Starbuck, so we might need to decide where we draw the lines between this article, [[Kara Thrace]] and [[The Destiny]]. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 00:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
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| :I agree somewhat. We know that many people love this speculation and the survey also shows that some people expect it here. But IMHO, it's just inane and verges on the annoying. There are so many fan theories floating around out there, it's flat out impossible to reflect even a good part of it. The problem is also, that what started out as interesting and ''grounded'' speculation, has deteriorated into complete bullshit by now, also due to the introduction of the Final Five. Especially with the latter, we can't really know which criteria even imply for potential cylonicity. In that regard, I've always felt that this wiki is a place for fact, analysis and some well-founded speculation here and there; and that complete speculation - like this - is a matter for forums. There are dozens of forums with endless threads of Final Five speculation, so why does this have to be rehashed on a wiki?
| | It's possible that Zak Adama is the final Cylon. The main reason I say this is because of [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s line in [[Flesh and Bone]]: "Adama is a Cylon." I don't think that it's William Adama, Apollo, or by extension Dualla. Is this viable enough for inclusion in the article? --[[User:JemHadar359|JemHadar359]] 05:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| :That said, the article has finally approached a state where it's readable and worthy of the wiki, by excising most of the specious speculation and concentrating on a few likely characters. However, as Joe said, its validity in light of the upcoming revelations - and also the uncertain basis for the arguments - is somewhat questionable. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
| | :In this article on SyFy Portal[http://www.syfyportal.com/news425609.html], Michael Hinman claims that they have received confirmation of the identity of the final Cylon from multiple sources, and claims that the final Cylon is one of five characters listed in the article. Zak Adama is not on the list. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| ::While I do think it's possible to do a speculation page properly, there's no doubt that it's a huge task to produce one that's relatively grounded and well sourced, particularly considering how just about anyone could be the final cylon. It's hard to say if such a task is really worth the effort. If I had to chose between leaving the page as it is now or nuking it, I'd definetely say nuke it. Maybe take the best bits (the comment from Bradley Thompson and the Hybird prophecy, maybe the last supper picture, none of the speculation) and just place it on the section for the Final Cylon on the Humanoid Cylon article? -- [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 16:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC) | | : As I said before—and forgive me for soundin' like a broken record—but this article will be dead in its present (and the ColdBoot form) before the season ends anyway. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 20:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC) |
| :::I think collecting the pro/anti cylon clues for the characters is worthwhile. But perhaps it should be just done as two sets of bullet points per character -- reasons why, and why not they could be a Cylon. Tell people to stick to itemizing information from canon/official, leave it to the reader to judge what it means. Then add one broad section on non-character specific information (like the last supper etc.)--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC) | |
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| This article used to be a load of bullet points, but people didn't like that so we changed it to its current state. Despite writing about half of the article as it stands, I'm not a big fan of it. The problem is mainly with the in-universe clues, someone, somewhere will have some reason why pretty much any arbitrary scene means some character being a Cylon. There are some relatively good things to consider [Baltar's hallucinations, Starbuck's return from the dead], but eventually you have to draw the line somewhere [Some people take Leoben saying "Adama's a Cylon" as a clue, is that justified?]. It's all terribly subjective and messy and not really for an encyclopaedia. Having a comprehensive coverage of fan speculation is both impossible and undesirable.
| | == Just a feeling. . . == |
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| I think the best thing about the article is that it stopped speculation spilling into other parts of the Wiki. An '''in'''-universe look at the issue would be better, and probably quite pertinent for season 4. Nevertheless, fan speculation on who is and isn't a Cylon has been an important part of the viewing experience (whenever I meet a Galactica fan the fisrt question I always ask is "Who do you think the last Cylon is?")
| | that the final cylon will be someone that there's been no speculation about. Someone right out of left field. Personally, I'd like to think it's. . . Romo Lampkin. [[User:Centurion 51773|Centurion 51773]] 16:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| Consequently, it is worth considering if we can find a way to cover, out-of-universe, that element of the viewing experience in an encyclopaedic manner without necessarily joining in. At the very least we could include a line like: "Since the outset of the show fans have speculated on who could be a Cylon. Theories for practically every character exist, with fans drawing justification from events in both aired content and comments from cast and crew."
| | == What about Number Seven? == |
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| Also we need to consider what happens to [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]], which is a very detailed essay, but probably not encyclopaedic. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
| | Do we have any information about the existence or nonexistence of Number Seven? In many interviews and articles, it has been stated that the Final Five don't have model numbers, so it couldn't be any of them. Has the issue of Number Seven been addressed in any interviews? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| :So, what's the plan? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 23:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
| | : Not yet you don't. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC) |
| :: Well, as you noted, the problem is that we'll never be able to cover fan theories in an encyclopedic format... Fan theories are really a dime a dozen, and to cover even 10% of them would be extremely biased. It seems quite apparent to me that the best bet would be to put the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]] page to pasture, and redo the "humanoid Cylon speculation" page from an in-universe perspective, as I had suggested. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 23:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
| | :: Since the Final Five are actually older, Seven must have been a failed model. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| :::What do you have in mind exactly? There isn't really any in-universe speculation for the final Cylon, expect for Baltar, which is covered in the other article. I guess we could cover the entire series and list people who were suspects at one time, which would be Boomer, Cmd. Adama, Ellen Tigh and Tyrol I guess. Maybe some more, but not a lot, and not really that interesting as it's common knowledge. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::I'm more interested in how the humans have grappled with identifying "who's a Cylon?" throughout the series then the search for the "Last Cylon", which I really don't find that interesting. When all is said and done, finding out "who's a Cylon" isn't as interesting as people make it out to be. So, as I've stated before: | |
| ::::"What I am proposing is that the article be written to detail 'in universe' Cylon speculation and how they've dealt with the threat of Cylons looking human. I'm looking at documenting the overall human reaction to this, which would include things like [[Sesha Abinell]]'s conspiracy theories, the Colonials attempts at a Cylon detector, the Fleet leadership's concerns about releasing the information before '[[Litmus]]', etc." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::Yeah, covering all that would be good and goes beyond the tired "who is a Cylon?" guessing. I agree that that's way overrated. Good TV in general isn't so much about what happens as how it affects the characters. I didn't know you wanted to go into that direction, which is why I asked. A different article name might be appropriate then, though. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::With the addition of "one will be revealed" as the core of the main titles, I have to say I differ. It seems remiss not to have a page collecting the clues to what the producers themselves have declared is the central event and mystery of the season. And there's a lot of material around this -- the debate over the last supper page, various official statements etc.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC) | |
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| I've drafted a rebooting of this article, sticking to canonical clues with minimal speculation. The word "could" barely appears. What's the best way to introduce the new article? Created a rebooted page and later rename it if people like it?--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 04:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
| | == Archiving rather than deleting == |
| : Yeah, you can create a rebooted version of the page... We can always rename it later. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 04:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
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| : Create it as subpage of this article. Like [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot]] -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
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| With the in-show revelation that the final Cylon is not in the fleet (at least according to Three), Ron Moore's comment about the final Cylon not being in the picture seems to have been given much more credence. That would seem to suggest profound implications for this page, which is premised around a major character being the most likely revelation.--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 00:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
| | I can't say I'll miss all the fanwanking we did on this page and its sisters, but I think it'll be a hoot to leave these pages as of Ellen Tigh's reveal, locked with a note about the relative history of how contributors jerked themselves around trying to formulate a logic for the last Cylons. The main articles would be protected as well as the talk pages for people to smile and laugh at (especially the producers and writers who probably made ''sure'' we were wrong! ;) Thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | :Sure, archive it. Though I will point out that if you read the [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/ColdBoot]] replacement that I started for it 6 months ago, it would in fact have led the reader to probably pick Ellen. Not sure why my efforts to get it live never amounted to anyting, but "nyah, nyah, I told you so..." :-) So archive that too. --[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 09:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
| == Karl ==
| | ::I'd say you'd get dibs on that prediction, Brad. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
| | | ***Ellen was on a LOT of shortlists. Her mysterious survival, and then Saul being a Cylon... [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 20:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC) |
| We were actually told that Hera and Nicky '''are''' hybrid children by Mr Moore (and Baltar tests Hera's blood for her hybrid nature in [[Epiphanies]]), hence Karl (and Cally) are definitely humans. This is unless RDM is just plain lying to us, which is quite possible. Nevertheless, I have a little faith, so I'm going to revert this edit.
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| Oh, yeah, weren't we planning to completely overhaul this article anyway? -- 09:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
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| : Yeah, but go ahead and revert it. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 16:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
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| == New theory about the final one: Benjamin "Ben" Linus from Lost ==
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| http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=15994&postcount=280 (posted into forum as suggested)
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| {{unsigned|Karamanthos}}
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| : Hi there, Karamanthos! If I might make a suggestion, you're better off adding your theories to the [http://www.battlestarforum.com Battlestar Forum]. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 02:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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| == The Hybrids ==
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| It's a bit of a stretch, but they seem to meet most of the criteria.
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| *There are no Hybrids in the fleet. | |
| *[[Tiffany Lyndall-Knight]] was not in the [[The Last Supper|Last Supper image]]. | |
| *They are definitely Cylons.
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| *They don't have a model number.
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| *Redemption can mean either atonement or liberation.
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| *They are arguably "still in shadow".
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| *The "howl of terrible suffering" could refer to how the Hybrid screamed before becoming lucid in [[Faith]].
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| *The Hybrids played a significant role in leading the Colonials and Cylons to Earth.
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| There are, however, a few problems.
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| *The Hybrids coming from Earth seems like a stretch.
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| *Although we don't know how long the Hybrid concept has been around, the Hybrids weren't introduced until early season 3, and IIRC they decided on the identity of the final Cylon in season 2.
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| Is there enough evidence to include the Hybrids under ''others''? What about under ''more esoteric theories''? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
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| I think "more esoteric theories" is quite applicable here. The purpose of the section is to list some of the more out-of-the-box ideas that people might have. I think it would be best to simply state it, rather than include the justification above, else the section will get cluttered (like the rest of the article). [[User:OTW|OTW]] 00:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
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| == Article [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|rebooted]] ==
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| Ok, so I've written up a reboot of the article based on the information presented in "[[Revelations]]". That can be located [[Humanoid Cylon speculation/Reboot|here]]. If there aren't any major objections I'd like to move the reboot to the main article space no later than the end of this week. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 19:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
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I found a blog post that links to this page on scifi.com. They've also got a forum thread on it. -- Gordon Ecker 00:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)Reply
It's possible that Zak Adama is the final Cylon. The main reason I say this is because of Leoben's line in Flesh and Bone: "Adama is a Cylon." I don't think that it's William Adama, Apollo, or by extension Dualla. Is this viable enough for inclusion in the article? --JemHadar359 05:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
- In this article on SyFy Portal[1], Michael Hinman claims that they have received confirmation of the identity of the final Cylon from multiple sources, and claims that the final Cylon is one of five characters listed in the article. Zak Adama is not on the list. -- Gordon Ecker 07:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
- As I said before—and forgive me for soundin' like a broken record—but this article will be dead in its present (and the ColdBoot form) before the season ends anyway. ;-) -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 20:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
that the final cylon will be someone that there's been no speculation about. Someone right out of left field. Personally, I'd like to think it's. . . Romo Lampkin. Centurion 51773 16:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
Do we have any information about the existence or nonexistence of Number Seven? In many interviews and articles, it has been stated that the Final Five don't have model numbers, so it couldn't be any of them. Has the issue of Number Seven been addressed in any interviews? -- Gordon Ecker 03:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
- Not yet you don't. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus 19:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
- Since the Final Five are actually older, Seven must have been a failed model. -- Noneofyourbusiness 15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
I can't say I'll miss all the fanwanking we did on this page and its sisters, but I think it'll be a hoot to leave these pages as of Ellen Tigh's reveal, locked with a note about the relative history of how contributors jerked themselves around trying to formulate a logic for the last Cylons. The main articles would be protected as well as the talk pages for people to smile and laugh at (especially the producers and writers who probably made sure we were wrong! ;) Thoughts? --Spencerian 03:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
- Sure, archive it. Though I will point out that if you read the Humanoid Cylon speculation/ColdBoot replacement that I started for it 6 months ago, it would in fact have led the reader to probably pick Ellen. Not sure why my efforts to get it live never amounted to anyting, but "nyah, nyah, I told you so..." :-) So archive that too. --bradtem 09:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
- I'd say you'd get dibs on that prediction, Brad. :) --Spencerian 03:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
