Talk:Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards/Archive 1

Casualties

Not sure how many of you saw the DVD screener already. What's clear is that we probably have to create a separate battle page for the attack on the com relay.

Somewhat unexpectedly, however, "Razor" puts the Cylon boarding action not at the attack on the shipyards, but the com relay attack soon after. Nothing wrong with that, but it creates some weirdness with the casualty numbers. In "Pegasus" Cain says that there were over 700 casualties until she made it to CIC. Then in the extended version, she specifically says that Gina allowed a boarding party on board which caused 800 casualties. "Razor" confirms this number, but as said, places the boarding action later. This would mean that about 1500 people were lost in total, which strikes me as a bit high. That's half the ship's crew! If it weren't for the more explicit line from the extended version (though I'll have to watch it again to see what she says exactly), one could say that the 800 includes the 700 lost earlier. --Serenity 17:41, 3 November 2007 (CDT)

I haven't seen it yet, to be honest, but it wouldn't surprise me if they fudged the numbers a bit. They did it before with the Astral Queen numbers. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 19:37, 3 November 2007 (CDT)

If the show isn't fudging the numbers, Cain was, giving that she later acquired a few new conscripts. --Spencerian 00:40, 4 November 2007 (CDT)

The error isn't really in "Razor" as such, since Shaw just says "final casualty numbers", which can mean the total number since the Cylon attack. In the extended cut of "Pegasus", Cain says "it killed over 800 members of my crew". Maybe we could interpret that as including both battles, since it's also implied that Gina tampered a bit with the computer systems. Assuming that Pegasus picked up a few hundred conscripts to make for the numbers isn't really realistic. --Serenity 07:09, 4 November 2007 (CST)

My inclination is to assume that both numbers are correct, and refer to separate engagements. Pegasus's crew complement at the time she joined the fleet (1,752) was markedly lower than Galactica's (2,662). Doing the math backwards, we get a pre-attack crew complement of 2,808 for Galactica and (1,752 at the time of Pegasus - 15 recruits from Scylla + 7 crewmen killed apprehending Gina + Belzen + 700 in the shipyards battle + 800 in the com relay battle = 3,245). (See Crew tally for the math). This fits a lot better than the original numbers, since (1) Pegasus was fully manned, while Galactica was awaiting decommissioning and (2) Pegasus was the larger craft - physically longer, four flight decks vs. two, and probably twice the number of fighter squadrons. --April Arcus 11:22, 19 November 2007 (CST)

Except that Cain states that Pegasus needs half the crew (approximately. People take such rough figures far too literally here) despite being larger. That makes sense because of the increased automation. Such crew reductions also happen with modern naval ships. Granted, you might still be right, but that would just increase Galactica's usual numbers. Personally, I prefer to go with what I said above. ca. 700 + ca. 100 = ca. 800. Contrary to what I said earlier, it fits pretty well and doesn't contradict anything but assumptions. Maybe not the nicest way, but it works. I put it that way on Battle of the Communications Relay with a footnote explaining it. If someone chooses to interpret it differently, they can.

Also, we don't really need to count the 7 or the 15 people specifically. They don't make a noticeable difference in the end; especially since most numbers are rounded anyways. --Serenity 11:41, 19 November 2007 (CST)

Galactica was not at full strength at the time of the attack, though, while Pegasus probably was. From RDM's blog, February 19th 2005: "while Galactica is an enormous ship and was built to be manned by a very large crew, that she had only a skeleton complement on board at the time of the Cylon attack." With that in mind, the numbers still work. --April Arcus 11:56, 19 November 2007 (CST)

Battlestar numbers

While "Razor" only seems to show 2 battlestars, Cain mentions two as destroyed in "Pegasus". That's why it said 3/2. Maybe the vessel above Pegasus counts as battlestar, in which case that would be a new class. In any case you forgot to update the battle box as well. --Serenity 11:28, 7 November 2007 (CST)

In "Razor" we see Pegasus, one Galactica type, two Valkyrie types with rollbar attachments(possibly part of the dockyard rig?) and two of the new class, which appears to be based on one of the Galactica concept designs. It seems to contradict what Cain originally said since we know that the Valkyrie was a battlestar, but perhaps the ships of that type at the dockyard were variants, making them destroyers or frigates or somesuch. --Pearse 12:04, 7 November 2007 (CST)

During the main establishing shot at ~6:36 there is a Galactica-type in the upper right and Pegasus low right, with one very large ship above it. And it doesn't look like Valkyrie at all. The left-most berth appears to be empty, though it can't be seen fully. There might be one ship in the arm left of Pegasus. To the left of the Galactica-type there might be a smaller ship. The rest is the superstructure of the shipyard. I can't really see any other larger vessels. --Serenity 12:42, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Look at ~6:39. The things to the left and right of the Galactica-type battlestar are clearly part of the shipyard. There is a ship right above Pegasus, but it looks too small to be a battlestar. The weird thing about this shot is that the Galactica-type looks bigger than Pegasus, even though Pegasus is closer to the camera. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 13:18, 7 November 2007 (CST)

No. I mean further left. The thing left of the ring around the battlestar. The right part of that could be a ship, maybe. It might just be part of the superstructure though. Hard to tell. --Serenity 13:31, 7 November 2007 (CST)

If memory serves, Cain's line in "Pegasus" was something like "There were .. ships in the shipyard, two of them battlestars." I always assumed those two included Pegasus. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 12:24, 7 November 2007 (CST)

No. The line goes "Five ships, two of them battlestars, they were destroyed right there." She refers only to the destroyed ships. Or if you want to fudge it, to those immediately destroyed. --Serenity 12:42, 7 November 2007 (CST)

The Valkyrie types are the ones being destroyed at 14:08 and 15:09. All together we see at least four ships exploding, all of which seem large enough to be battlestars, but we can't know the actual designations of the new ones. Some could be considered support ships despite their large size. It all depends on their roles in the fleet, doesn't it? --Pearse 13:31, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Ah yes. They appear to be to the left of Pegasus, though it isn't clear. In which case they can be in the lower left part of the yard, which clearly has at least one ship in the establishing shot (there can be more, it just can't be seen very well). Emphasizing the "right there", this even fits with Cain's comment, since the other ships appear to last a bit longer than the initial attack. --Serenity 13:49, 7 November 2007 (CST)

A user, Nick, sent us an e-mail saying a third Valkyrie class Battlestar is in the scene in Razor covering the Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards. I do not have Razor in front of me. Could someone please verify this claim and then let me know so I can contact the user? Thanks! --Jonathan 03:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I've received confirmation that a third Valkyrie class Battlestar is in that scene. This confirmation comes from Battlestar Forum Season 4: Razor: Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards Thread. I won't edit the article because I want to know how the edit should be worded. Any thoughts?--Jonathan 06:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Berzerk Orthos

The two support vessels present at the Shipyards (one above Pegasus) are the work of Charles Oines. He created them way before Razor. Here are some pictures. He had them in his portfolio few days ago, but put them down now.

[1] Razor Screenshot. [2] Render model. [3] Schematics. [4] Evolution. [5] Oines's Portfolio. --Deus 18:13, 7 November 2007 (CST)

That ship was an early design of the Galactica, and you can see that on the miniseries DVD. Oines merely created a more detailed model of this vessel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Helo87 (talk • contribs).

Well, it looks like it but, they obviously used his model. Look at the engines. [6]--Deus 18:40, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Ok, I have more more picturs of Berzerk here [7]. It's from SciFi Mesches Forum from Charles Oines. All of them done before Razor aired (leaked), so the one with comparsion with Galactica is wrong since in Razor Berzerk was almost as long as Pegasus. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deus (talk • contribs).

I made a section about the ships on Scorpion Fleet Shipyards and linked to Oines's site. There is a picture there where he confirms it. Not sure what else we can use. Should we link to some of those pictures above? To Deus's gallery? We could, but the source of the images isn't very clear.

If we source this somehow, we could at least note that the artist thinks of at as escort ships. Even without that I personally don't consider it as a battlestar. --Serenity 03:54, 13 December 2007 (CST)

Evacuation of the shipyard

Where is this said exactly? It's not in the conversation between Adama, Roslin and Cain (in either version of the episode). I can't recall any other references to it either. --Serenity 11:08, 19 November 2007 (CST)

Don't know where this comes from either, since there clearly was no time to evacuate to shipyards. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 11:27, 19 November 2007 (CST)

Electromagnetic pulse during the attack

Question: Would there be an EMP generated by a nuclear detonation during the attack? I think there would given the following:

• Probable presence of a magnetic field given the proximity of the shipyard to an inhabited planetary body (shielded from solar wind),
• Appreciable localized solid (shipyard, debris, etc) and gaseous (expelled and/or combusting gasses as a very minute, transitory "atmosphere") could provide electron sources for Compton scattering

These circumstances might produce the coupling effect necessary to induce a smaller-scale effect.--Fredmdbud 17:13, 14 December 2007 (CST)

Could be, but I'm not sure the writers even thought that much about that, given the depiction of EMPs in the Miniseries. Or if they asked the science adviser about that particular point. So I'm not speculating that much about it. I think a nuclear detonation alone (gamma rays, etc.) would still be enough to disrupt the DRADIS, given other interference shown in the series, and that this effect could also be called an EMP going a bit beyond the literal, scientific definition. Cain really only says the blast blinded the DRADIS" (so just calling it interference is fine). It's the Miniseries that made it look like nuclear weapons cause EM fields in open space. --Serenity 12:25, 15 December 2007 (CST)

Re-imagined Series definition: nerve center or "bridge" of a battlestar, see: Combat Information Center

Re-imagined Series definition: A powerful electrically-disruptive surge that typically accompanies a nuclear detonation.

Re-imagined Series definition: "Direction, Range, and Distance", Colonial equivalent of radar or lidar