Talk:Number Eight/Archive 1

Was Sharon a real person, once?

Caprica Boomer notes that humano-Cylons are not wired into each other's brains, so they don't share knowledge directly. However, she was aware of events in the fleet, which means some level of data from Galactica Boomer was received. She also recollects to Starbuck on the first time they met in the Delphi Museum. Could the Sharon that Starbuck knew was a real human, her consciousness cloned into a series of Cylon copies? Food for thought. Spencerian 16:52, 22 Aug 2005 (EDT)

No. Baltar's Cylon detector showed that she physically was not not a human (I forget how exactly the detector works; something like the artificial, silicon based cells of humanoid Cylons can't hold up to radiation to well and after prolonged exposure degenerate a little). They still have to explain to us the exact nature of the humanoid Cylons, but it is apparent that they aren't fully biological creatures: I think they're made of synthetic chemicals bases (silicon, etc) and they have Silica Relays running through their body; I mean they can transmit their consciousness and thoughts over vast distances just using whatever's in their brain. Are *ANY* of the humanoid Cylons based on real people? We don't know. But the Galactica-Boomer was definately not an original. -- Ricimer, 11 Sept, 2005.

I'm betting that Gaius was real -- once. :) Spencerian 12:45, 11 October 2005 (EDT)

RDM said in that interview from thefandom.com that "there was never an original 'Sharon Valerii'" so I think that settles it. --Ricimer 20:04, 6 November 2005 (EST)

It has indeed, and the Twelve Models page is now moot. Answer moved to main Humano-Cylon page. --Spencerian

Keeping Track of the Valeriis

I recommend that we use "Boomer" as the name of the now-dead Galactica copy we first encounter in the mini-series in the article as applicable. The Caprica version can be "Sharon Valerii" or "Valerii" provided that the context where the copy is found is made clear in that part of the article. Remember that Galactica's crew doesn't see the Caprica copy as "Boomer" and we shouldn't call her as such. I've also broken up the text here to make reading and information easier to find. Spencerian 10:20, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

Problematic. Although only the Galactica copy is properly "Boomer", both of them are Sharon Valerii. --Peter Farago 17:26, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

That it is. But it is worse to use "Boomer" for all of the copies, and since it may be a cold day in hell before Adama allows any Valerii copy to fly again in the service of the Colonials, using the callsign is inappropriate as "Boomer" is dead. Hopefully we won't find any more Valeriis to disambiguate. I'm trying to treat things as we did the Ellen Tigh/Saul Tigh matter. Spencerian 12:43, 11 October 2005 (EDT)

Disambig?

Actually, how about creating an article for each of the two major Valerii's -- Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy) and Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy), for instance -- and using Sharon Valerii as a disambig/information page for the Valerii model line? -- Joe Beaudoin 14:05, 6 November 2005 (EST)

• I am unsure that that would be the best option. Perhaps by the end of season 3 we might make that choice, but that's 30 episodes from now. Right now, I just think they should be under one article, though it is a valid point. --->On top of this, we keep calling them "Galactica-Boomer" and "Caprica-Boomer". Someone then pointed out that we shouldn't call "Caprica-Boomer" 'Boomer' because it's a military callsign and she was never really in the military. However, I feel that originally this was a wise choice because Helo thought she was "Boomer" as she was posing as Galactica-Boomer. Also, we need to check if anyone calls her "Boomer" anymore after she is brought to Galactica. Anyway, I approve of the prevailing tendency to refer to her post-"Home" as "Caprica-Sharon"--->Regardless, we have indeed encountered a problem now that we have this information from RDM: "Caprica-Sharon" is now on Galactica, and "Galactica-Sharon" is now going to wake up in a new body on or near Caprica. We cannot refer to them as "Boomer 1" and her counterpart "Boomer 2" because that would imply that "Galactica-Boomer is the "original", and she is not; RDM said there is no "original", and "Caprica-Sharon" has equal claim to this. Perhaps we could use "Boomer 1" and "Boomer A"--->no, wait, that would be only more confusing. In addition to this, there are also other 'generic' "evil" standard-Cylon Sharons, like the one introduced at the end of "Final Cut". Maybe we could use the less-often prefered nomenclature: "Tyrol-Boomer" for Chief Tyrol's Boomer (Galactica-Boomer) and "Helo-Boomer" for the one that got impregnated by Helo ("Caprica-Boomer"). Of course, there is always the possibility of some crazy soap-opera love triangle and Tyrol falling for Caprica-Boomer because he thinks Galactica-Boomer is dead only to find that Galactica-Boomer has become the new Caprica-Boomer leading to a tense standoff with the standard Caprica-Six who is taking orders from Baltar-Six the angel of God who is in turn having a love triangle with Pegasus-Six a.k.a. Gina who will be supplied with a nuclear weapon and Raptor by Galactica-Jammer which will be preceded by Cally-Selix being outed by Galactica-D'Anna when in fact she is not a Cylon throwing blame off of Galactica-D'Anna even as Caprica-D'Anna is trying to indoctrinate Galactica-Caprica-Galactica Boomer into the Cylon religion only to be saved by Anders but not before being impregnated with Starbuck's missing egg cells. This could take a while. --Ricimer 19:53, 6 November 2005 (EST)

Wow. Wow. Wow. WOW. Ricimer. Good LORD, man. There is some part loose in your head and I like it. Wow. Anyway, I actually kind of like the idea of sing Tyrol-Sharon (or, more properly, Tyrol-Valerii?) and Helo-Sharon (Agathon-Valerii? Ouch.). That's a bit odd, perhaps, to those of us who've been watching from the start, but what if someone missed the parts where Caprica-Sharon was on Caprica and so only know of this one that, as far as they know, has always been on Galactica--and why the hell don't these wiki-morons get their facts straight about Galactica-Boomer and her pregnancy and all? ;) Or maybe we should call the one of them Preggers-Boomer or Mama-Boomer or something and the other, uh... Dead-Boomer or Sleeper-Boomer. Or maybe not. --Day 03:05, 17 December 2005 (EST)

I don't. Galactica-Valerii and Caprica-Valerii are still unambiguous, and with "Downloaded" indefinitely shelved, it appears they will remain that way. I find identifying them by their S.O.'s tasteless and no less confusing than our current system. --Peter Farago 03:50, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Ricimer's spoilers

Ricimer, we need to link to that interview if we're going to cite it here. Is this the one? --Peter Farago 13:55, 6 November 2005 (EST)

Yay, the very same. --Ricimer 19:40, 6 November 2005 (EST)

Why "Apparently 'Asian' Extraction"?

I glanced over a number of the human character bios (Helo, both Adamas, Starbuck, Roslin, and Dualla) and all the Humano-Cylon bios, and none of them make reference to their apparent Earth racial extractions. Why mention it for Sharon, much less put it at the top of the article? No one in the show talks about race (the closest they get to it is Colony reference, and Dualla and Zarek both being Saggitarons seems to nullify racial parallels). We're not even sure there were, or will be, any verified direct connection between the Earth races of today and Colonial humans. Unfortunately, the words "apparently 'Asian' extraction" come across more as an over-fixation on her Asian characteristics than anything else.

Could we get rid of the words? Or at least, in the interest of balance, make comparable comments in all the bios ("apparently 'Caucasian' extraction," "apparently 'African' extraction," etc.)? --BlueResistance 15:35, 9 November 2005 (EST)

You have a point and couldn't make it more clear. Comments from the rest of the peanut gallery? --Spencerian 16:18, 9 November 2005 (EST)

I say we nix the "apparent" note, the only significant and consistent physiological notes that have been made on characters have dealt with accents (ie. Baltar), not appearance. Racial origin should be left to the cast bios, if noted at all. Colonial heritage, IMHO, is what matters to this wiki. Señor Peanut: --Mason 21:01, 9 November 2005 (EST)

I wouldn't mind getting rid of it. We have Race and Ethnicity in the Twelve Colonies to talk about this stuff. --Peter Farago 02:47, 10 November 2005 (EST)

Rank

Screen captures show that Starbuck, Boomer, and Helo all wear the same rank insignia. Helo is known to be a Lieutenant JG, Starbuck is almost definitely a full Lieutenant, and Boomer's status is disputed.

The article lists her as a Lieutenant JG, but according to these pictures she wears the same rank insignia as Starbuck. Philwelch 22:38, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Does anyone have a source on the Lt. J.G. business? --Peter Farago 22:46, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Per Moore's blog entry, the rank seems to exist, and in the miniseries, Starbuck notes Helo's "flying with rooks", indicating that Boomer is a new pilot. Then again, by the time she's done with basic officer training and flight school she very well may have made it all the way up to full Lieutenant. Philwelch 23:11, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Kat is definitely an Lt. J.G., as per her caption in "Final Cut". Maybe someone can get a capture of her insignia. --Peter Farago 23:16, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer was a Lieutenant Junior Grade, because she was a new pilot and Lt. J.G. was the lowest officer rank (all pilots are officers). We knew Starbuck is a full Lieutenant because she's the highest ranking pilot after Apollo. I don't know what the frak you're talking about with these 'pictures'; you can't make out a clear shot of their rank insignia in any of them. --Ricimer 23:59, 7 December 2005 (EST)

It's difficult but definitely possible if you look at enough. Besides, Ensign is the lowest officer rank (Ensign Davis is apparently infatuated with Crashdown in Season 1, and Ron Moore mentions the rank of Ensign in his blog post). Furthermore, the collar of Sharon's uniform jacket in "Water" gives her rank simply as "Lieutenant", not "Lieutenant Junior Grade". Philwelch 03:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Starbuck's insignia is visible in the picture where she's staring down Baltar. Sharon's is visible in one of the cockpit shots of her and Crashdown. Philwelch 03:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

OH come on, don't we all remember then endless rank-pip mix ups on Star Trek?; in no way should we alter PRE-EXISTING biographical information due to insignia on their collars in a stray scene or two. --Ricimer 10:54, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Yeah, but we still need a source on Sharon's Lt. J.G. status if we're going to argue against on screen evidence. Has she ever actually be referred to as such? --Peter Farago 14:29, 8 December 2005 (EST)

It's not a stray scene or two—it's every scene. Someone with HD captures or the DVDs should verify but in every picture I've seen, Boomer wears that same insignia, and so does Starbuck. And it's not just the insignia—it's the label on her uniform collar.

Ricimer, I learned from the "twelve models" thing that when we fans make seemingly reasonable extrapolations from incomplete evidence, we screw things up. There is no direct evidence that Boomer is a JG. None. (Kat is a J.G.—if we can get a screen capture of her insignia perhaps we could compare to Boomer and Starbuck). Yes, it's slightly implausible that a rook pilot could already be an O-3, but not out of the question. For all we know she was a retrained ECO.

Oooh, I just realized, Helo's a JG too. (in 33 he gives his "name, rank, and serial number"). I'm gonna check out his insignia. Philwelch 15:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

That's strange. Helo wears the same insignia too as far as I can determine. So apparently both grades of Lieutenant wear the same insignia, unless there's a very subtle difference. (There might be—Adama's and Tigh's insignia are hard to tell apart in some photos.) Also, what rank is Helo according to his caption in Final Cut? Philwelch 15:24, 8 December 2005 (EST)

The collar of Lt. Valerii's uniform jacket is labeled with her name, serial number, and rank. ("Water")

I updated the picture. I'd still say that the preponderence of evidence (considering Boomer's uniform collar in "Water") indicates she's a full Lieutenant, barring any additional evidence to the contrary. Philwelch 15:34, 8 December 2005 (EST)

If the full Lt. and Lt. J.G. insignia are the same, then what do we have to go on? --Peter Farago 15:43, 8 December 2005 (EST)

This image. Philwelch 15:48, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Which image? --Peter Farago 15:56, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Sorry, got it uploaded now. Philwelch 16:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Seems credible. --Peter Farago 16:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer's insignia in the picture above (left side) looks different. On all the other Lt. pins, there is a diamond and the ends of the chevron protrude beyond it but on the pin of Boomer's right side (our left) it looks like the chevron doesn't protrude, leaving it a plain diamond. One other thing is in the Mini, Boomer's Raptor is marked "JRLIEUTENANT SHARON VALERII." --Talos 11:36, 14 December 2005 (EST)

In "Water" before Sharon launches to find water, at 0:26:16, her rank insignia catches the light and you can see that the insignia is a diamond with no protrusions from the chevrons. --Talos 12:59, 14 December 2005 (EST)

That had occurred to me, but the protrusions are difficult to see, yet in some shots they are visible. Furthermore, have you checked Helo's insignia for protrusions? The Raptor markings might be considered a retcon since the rank was established in "33" as "Lieutenant J.G.". Overall the evidence seems inconclusive at best, which is one reason I really, really want HD screen captures. (Word of mouth is one thing, pictures are better). Philwelch 17:02, 15 December 2005 (EST)

Oh yeah: Helo's chevron definitely DOES protrude, and it's completely confirmed that he's a J.G. Philwelch 17:03, 15 December 2005 (EST)

You should be able to see what I mean here.--Talos 20:58, 16 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer's insignia (Water).

OK. I agree it looks like that, but I can bring up just as many images that make it look like the edges on Adama's insignia aren't there. More importantly, there are images that clearly show Sharon and Helo's chevrons protruding. Philwelch 01:26, 17 December 2005 (EST)

I agree that the collars are inconclusive. They're hard to see even on DVDs and BSG has notoriously dark lighting, shakey cameras, etc. All this, plus the ease of this a rank pin might be bothced by the costum guys makes me think that we should treat those as secondary evidence. Unless we can get a really good shot (like the Helo and Starbuck ones above) of Boomer's pin, I think we should act on the hypothesis that all Lieutenants wear the same pin, with the chevron protruding.

So, discounting jewelry, we have the Mini-series which, according to Talos, marks her ship as JRLIEUTENANT (which is suppose is the same as Lt. J.G.), and then Water which, as seen in the screen cap above, has her uniform marked "LIEUTENANT". I'd think that her uniform would have her full rank and not just part of it, so I think we can count these as contradictory. Talos, can you give us a screen cap or a rough time that the mini shows this marking? Until we can verify that, what do we do if they're both equally clear? I mean--make a note, obviously, but which is right? I'd vote that Season 1 takes precedence over the mini since this would not be the first retconn from mini to Season 1. Thoughts? --Day 01:52, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Furthermore, the rank of "Junior Lieutenant" has been retconned to "Lieutenant J.G." Philwelch 02:36, 17 December 2005 (EST)

I'm not even sure if we need to call that a retconn. Might just have been some short hand or whatever. The meaning is pretty clearly the same. Unless someone wants to argue something about her being named after her (alleged) father or something. Heh. --Day 02:54, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Here's the pic of the Raptor. Also, I added a pic of couple shots from the Mini-series that show a plain diamond insignia. It seems pretty consistant that the right pin is plain but the left one has the protruding chevron like in the picture at the top of this discussion (the triple one with the Starbuck/Boomer/Helo shots). --Talos 18:24, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer's Raptor nameplate (Mini-Series).

File:Boomer insig2a.JPG

Boomer's insignia part 2 (Mini-Series).

Those have a pretty apparent chevron, Talos. Philwelch 02:02, 18 December 2005 (EST)