Battlestar Wiki:Chiefs' noticeboard/Archive8

simple.battlestarwiki.org

Just like they have over on the EN wiki, this would be basically a cliff note version of the English translation only. If we do it right, we could have simple have universal "cliff note" type entries from all the languages now that we have SUL working. Shane (talk) 06:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It's a bit more complicated than a "cliff notes version", it's basically an entry-level English-language version. This is the "Simple English Wikipedia, and here's a primer on how to write articles in simple English. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

June 2

We lost 5 days of changes to the databases. Anything that happened till 0400 hours June 2, 2008 is lost. Sorry! We are trying to recover, but this is as good as we can get right now. Shane (talk) 07:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As a precaution, I've converted most of the MediaFrak tables to InnoDB and working on a new backup script which will dump each table faster, without locking up the site. NCommander 08:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Upload errors

So, we're having upload errors... I haven't a clue how to fix it right now, but what I get is this:

Could not rename file "/tmp/http/phpPZkJNu" to "public/7/7f/Genevieve_Buechner.jpg".

Now, the prefix should really be "/home/bsgwiki/public_html/media/images" and not "public" (no slash in front)... I wonder if there's a configuration setting fubared somewhere in one of 1.13's files? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 05:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok... this is what happens when the disembodied spirit of Jar Jar Binks inhabits all of us... what caused this issue was the fact that the partition was close to (or at) 100% full. We cleaned it up... and, besides, we're moving to a better server with more room to it anyway. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 21:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Subscription

Hi! I have just paid the subscription fee for a year, but I can still see the ads after having logged out and in again. Is there anything I have to do to confirm it? Have I done anything wrong, or is it just a question of time for the subscription to go through and change my status? Thanks a mill in advance for your help. -- Mouan 16:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Mouan, I've confirmed your subscription and will set you up here for ads-free viewing in a few minutes... By the way, do you have an account on our Battlestar Forum? If so—or if you want to make one—please send me that info so I can enable ads-free viewing of our forums as well. Thank you for helping us out! :D -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Mouan, you are all set for both places. Cheers! :) Shane (talk) 17:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you guys. One thing - is the subscription valid for other language versions of the wiki or do I need to buy another one for the Spanish wiki? Because I have just checked and it still displays ads. Perhaps it needs to be set up like you did with this one? :) -- Mouan 20:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Shane added you to the local (English) sponsor group, but he should've added you to the global sponsor group. @Shane: you can do that through Special:GlobalGroupPermissions. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 20:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I got a permission error. Same with Joe. :( Shane (talk) 02:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

It tells me I have to be a Senior Chief, which I'm not and you are. What error do you get? --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 09:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, it gives me the same message, despite the fact that I am a senior chief! Whoa! -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 09:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all. Works like a charm! :)-- Mouan 21:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Everything has been updated...

Including all base extensions. Shane (talk)

Global groups have been messed up again, though, meaning all global groups and their permissions are gone. I'll restore all that after dinner. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 15:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Minus that. :) Shane (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going through and fixing a few of the extensions. For instance, the hide sitenotice extension needs to be modified to allow for unregistered users to hide the message. I'll update this page when I'm done. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 15:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

My bad. Roger that joe. Shane (talk) 15:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't sweat it. :) Fixes were simple. Everything I needed to do is done now. LOL -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, global groups are back up. I've also promoted all sponsors to global status. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 16:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Minor DB issue on Media

Getting this whenever I post a new article:

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:

   (SQL query hidden)

from within function "efUpdateCheckUserData". MySQL returned error "1146: Table 'bsgwiki_media.cu_changes' doesn't exist (athena.frakmedia.net)".

The article edits still go through though... Probably a case of just needing to run the update.php app. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup, update.php says "cu_changes table added and populated". Should be fixed now. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 16:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Great! Thanks! -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 20:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Unified logon for other non-BSG Wikis

Also, while I'm at it, can the unified logon work for the other non-BSG Wikis? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 20:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that Wikimedia has cross-domain SUL (*.wikipedia.org, *.wiktionary.org, etc.) means it's possible. I'm stumping Brion right now about the lack of documentation for CentralAuth and asking him how to do cross-domain SUL. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 21:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, it turned out to be a configuration variable in CentralAuth.php that I overlooked. Which wikis would you like to add SUL to? --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 21:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The Letterman List:

That's it for now. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 22:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, will do those tomorrow afternoon if I have time. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 22:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't all MediaWiki's then have to be the same version then? Minus the EurekaWiki, everything else has it's own mediawiki installation.. which is a bit crazy. :x Shane (talk) 22:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Having all wikis share the same codebase would help a great deal in setting this thing up, yeah. All wikis don't necessarily have to have the same version, as long as they all have and support CentralAuth. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 22:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to work on that before we did anything with the CentralAuth. The LocalSettings.php and the media folders we have to keep correct, but I think that would be the better move right now. Shane (talk) 23:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I'd love it if you put all wikis on one codebase before I even touch CentralAuth. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 23:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll be away until Monday, so once you've finished migrating all wikis to the same codebase, please drop me a note on my talk page and I'll get to it when I get back. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 12:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Skin breakage (again)

Somewhere in the last few days (probably related to the recent upgrade), the user options bar (Catrope / my talk / ... / log out ) started overlapping the pages tabs bar (article / discussion / ... / purge). This doesn't happen in the battlestar (default) skin, since they're miles apart there, but does happen in bsgbook and bsgmonobook. --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 16:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I can confirm that. Frak. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Main Page Header Redesign

I worked on a re-design of the Main Page header on the BW:MAIN page. I also removed the airdates section. I have yet to add it to the design, but it be a bar under the two images. Shane (talk) 11:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The header is now bloated with the redesign. The header really needs to be as small as possible. To accomplish that, remove the airdate stuff from the header, and I think it'll be fine. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Help with the French Battlestar Wiki

Addressing Shane: I read about the request to help with the French page of Battlestar Wiki. I'm not sure what sort of help is needed, but I'm reasonably fluent in French and a fan of the re-imagined BSG. If this makes me qualified, perhaps I can be of assistance. I'm new to Wiki, though, which is why I'm posting this here (couldn't find a link for a personal post). Waiting to hear from you. -chimere

You can post personal messages (sort of, everyone will be able to read them) on a user's talk page. For Shane, this is User talk:Shane. To start a new section, click the + sign next to the "edit" button on top of the page.

As to helping with the French wiki: I suggest you browse around the wiki to see what has to be done there (which articles have to be created, improved, etc.) and start doing it. By signing up here you've already got an account on the French wiki as well, and you should be logged in automatically by just . --Catrope^{(Talk to me or e-mail me)} 21:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Movie

We need an article on the BSG movie, now that it has been announced. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 22:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm searching about for the announcement, so now I know I'm blind. I did create an episode guide for the Caprica pilot, however. There could be as many as three BSG movies if Grace Park's comments are to be believed.--Spencerian 04:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

There is an article about it called Proposed TV movies from the time when there were just rumors about it. Given that there is only one movie for the moment, but greenlighted, we should probably take that and move/rename it. -- Serenity 12:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Right. I thought we already had an article... and that was it. Just couldn't find it. We could simply name it the "Cylon TV movie", since that's what it's gonna be about anyway according to the press release. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now that we have a name for the movie that's officially been released (it is called "The Plan", at least for now) we should get cracking on the article. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

What image in Scattered?

What image do the credits in "Scattered" refer to?

Atlas Image Obtained As Part Of The Two Micron All Sky Survey (2Mass), a joint project of the University of Massachusetts and the Infrared Processing and Analysis Center/California Institute of Technology, funded by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and the National Science Foundation.

--DrWho42 15:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

TV.com

Should we include links to TV.com on the infoboxes of cast and crew?--DrWho42 14:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's really worth our trouble. IMDb already has the same info that TV.com does, if not more. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 15:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

DVD Menu Pictures (and so on)

Would it go against any copyright policy to upload any images/video(?) of the BSG DVD menus? I think it would add a certain layer and provide for those who have yet to buy the DVDs, are just curious to see how the other Region DVDs look, or wanted to compare how the designs for each changed over time (i.e. the difference between Season 1 (Region 1 DVD) and Season 3).--DrWho42 01:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A good question. Stills of the menus should be OK. Videos may be excessive from a size standpoint unless the interface has a definitive look that's appealing and unique. The differences between the regions (which is possible since the studios may license the packaging and interface to different companies in the world for distribution) would a benefit. --Spencerian 02:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Concerning some of the planets

OK, since the message I left on Category talk:Planets has been ignored for nearly a week, I though I would leave a message here to express a concern, that some of the "planets" on the planets category are actually moons. So I am wondering if we could either move the category to "Planets and Moons", or just simply start a Moon category. What do you admins think. I thank you all in advance. -- Matthew R Dunn 00:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

We could do either. Six of one, half dozen of the other, IMHO. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 01:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Credit lists

Before I go ahead and transcribed more, is it against any sort of policy to have the credits listed here as they appear on the show? Here's the lists I have so far:

--DrWho42 14:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Nope. We may need to beautify the lists though, in the way that the List of pilots or the cast and crew lists already are. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 15:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Firefox Add-on

Is there a possibility of having a Battlestar Wiki search engine for Firefox (as it isn't listed here: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:4/cat:all?sort=name )?--DrWho42 18:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Who would program it? Is there a "kit" of sorts to do so? --Spencerian 18:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, in Firefox, if you click on the drop down item next to the search bar, you should see something like Add "Battlestar Wiki (en)" in the drop-down menu. Just click on that, and you should be able to search the wiki via Firefox's built in search apparatus. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, when I did that with 3.0.4, I got an error message in trying to add it. I've been loving the idea of creating an iPhone/iTouch app that would be a search engine for BW-En as well...I might write a developer to see if he can extend one of his products. --Spencerian 00:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

"Firefox could not download the search plugin from:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/opensearch_desc.php"- Annoying, cos I could do it in Firefox 2. OTW 23:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Links on the left

Anyone know why I have more useful links below the search box when I am logged out than when I am logged in? When logged in, I only have one box named Projects, but when logged out, it is replaced by Navigation, Series and Support. Caldumidoan 07:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a configuration issue with one of the mediawiki extensions that we use to generate the sidebars... I'll try to look into it over the holiday weekend. Working on final corrections to the auction catalog right now, so that's why I haven't fixed that issue yet. ;-) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 18:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Skin problems

Since the monobook-based skins were disabled, several users have been getting blank pages or error 500s while logged in. This seems to be the result of having a disabled skin selected, this problem can be solved by going to http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Preferences&useskin=battlestar. Is there a large-scale solution? For example using a mediawiki extension which uses the the default skin if a user's current skin is disabled, or going into the user settings and do an automated mass search and replace to give everyone who currently using a disabled skin the new default skin. -- Gordon Ecker 06:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Crap.I have to ru a database comand to fix that. I will do that now. Shane (talk) 14:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's my fault. Sorry about that. Shane, let me know the sit rep on that, OK? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 22:36, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

After 10 days... everything should be good. I used a mass. command to reset everyone back to the default skin. Including our own admin april. :) Shane (talk) 14:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Featured Article and Featured Pic

Any objections to someone just "executively" deciding to update them before next week? -- FrankieG 23:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

If you don't get to it, I'll try in the next 24. Joe is a little busy with the auction, and hopefully other admins will jump back on to aid a bit. I'll be putting in more time here to keep the cruft down. --Spencerian 00:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like it's "Return of the Admins" week. :D Shane (talk) 05:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No Navigation

So, uh, I can't see the thing on the left with things like "recent changes" and stuff in it anymore. Using default skin. OTW 18:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems to work now OTW 22:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

And now it's gone again. OTW 23:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Still not there. I get it if I log out though.--OTW 15:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. That makes me wonder if it has something to do with the logic that switches up the contents of the navigation bar based on your user group. Sounds like a Shane or Joe question to me. --Steelviper 19:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I concur. I'd hate for someone to do edits and find that they didn't save because they used the browser's back button or something. --Spencerian 03:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll double check. But under my 'Navigation' when I do a preview, 'Recent Changes' is still there... Shane (talk) 04:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe assign yourself to the same group as OTW? (Or create a dummy account that mirrors OTW's privs?) Seeing as how you're in the sysop group (amongst others), the results might be different. --Steelviper 13:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It's still not there. I am missing the entire navigation box, not just RC OTW

I have this same issue and have for a while now. It happens on all the different skins. --Pearse 23:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Hulu content

While rolling the dice, I've run across quite a few of the pages with Hulu content that are broken or are pointing at videos that no longer exist. Just an FYI, we need to do some cleanup on these. JubalHarshaw 16:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've fixed all the original series Hulu links. The 1980 and RDM episodes we had no longer exist on Hulu, that I can find. Those pages should probably be deleted and the links removed from episode guides. There are new RDM episodes but I'm hesitant to create pages/link them as I don't know about the shelf-life (how long will they remain available?). Thoughts? JubalHarshaw 17:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, cleaned up all Hulu content. Unavailable stuff is gone and episodes that are available are linked. I even got wild and linked "The Face of the Enemy". Also, I appear to be having a conversation with myself ... I'm so lonely ... JubalHarshaw 01:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Yeah, I can relate. You should see some of the conversations I have over at the podcast project. I can be a bit of a taskmaster sometimes. --Steelviper 01:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Content being copied to Wikipedia

Do you guys have any opinion on your content being copied and pasted to Wikipedia? If I understand correctly your content is covered by a non-commercial only license, so I don't think it's allowed. Right? AlistairMcMillan 23:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Our content is mostly CC:NC, so it's not license compatible w/ Wikipedia. --Steelviper 23:55, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Strange behavior in Recent Changes

Since last week I noticed that the advanced recent changes format (which shows collapsed entries for me) disappeared. Cycling the setting and refreshing the browser did nothing.

And now the new users pages show filled pages and double entries, instead of the standard red new pages and single entry if someone's welcomed them.

The wiki's not falling apart like Galactica, is it? Shane? :) --Spencerian 22:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

hah. It has to... we follow Galactica into Battle! I think it's because there was an extension loaded called 'NewUserLog' before it was built into 1.14.0. That might be causing you problems. I just disabled the other plugin, but we won't see if that fixes until a new user. Shane (talk) 22:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

No joy. I don't see ANY red links in Recent Changes...and new user's talk pages continue to show non-red, even before we splat a welcome message there. Do we need some Cylon plug-in glue? --Spencerian 14:07, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Oops. Didn't communicate here very well. It's currently WAD (working as designed), as they got rid of the red from the RC (in part because Shane hates seeing red there). The only consolation I could give on that front (outside of trying to wrangle with Shane over the color schemes) is that if you mouseover the talk pages it will show whether a page is not created (at least it does in Chrome, so I'd assume it applies to Safari). But Shane DID fix the double entry for the new user thing. --Steelviper 17:25, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Okie-dokie. The show's characters aren't the only ones not dealing with change well... :) --Spencerian 23:03, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

No worries. Major updates to wiki once we finsh this airing. We got lots of cleanup to do. Mops get ready.. GO! :D Shane (talk) 03:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Fine. You all win! RED is now all uncreated pages or visited links that don't have any page as well. Hard refresh for it to show up. Shane (talk) 23:28, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Is this news?

Or: where to put this [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Faile (talk • contribs).

It's not really news. You're welcome to add a link to it on the Battlestar Forum. --Spencerian 19:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Capitalized Headlines

The first headings on each page are "capitalized" (The First Character Of Every Single Word Is Transformed To Upper Case); this is done via CSS. At least for the German Battlestar Wiki, this looks awful. Even with all Battlestar Wikis sharing the same set of stylesheets, there is a solution: Please change

   #content .firstHeading {
       ...
       border: none;    /* No border for page title */
       text-transform: capitalize;
   }

to something like

   #content .firstHeading {
       ...
       border: none;    /* No border for page title */
       text-transform: capitalize;
   }
   #content :lang(de) .firstHeading {
       text-transform: inherit;
   }

(or do it the other way round, activating the transformation for specified languages only). This should fix it for all modern, standards-conforming browsers. Thank you! --Bruno-the-questionable 17:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Will do. Sorry for the long update. Shane (talk) 02:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Major gripe at spoiler insensitivity.

I have been left angry and frustrated at this wiki's lack of sensitivty and spoiler alerts. I have just finished watching season 1, as I am late to the series. Typically after watching a lot of episodes, I read up on them online in case I have missed any subplots, just as a quick reminder of what is happening. And after years of looking at the star trek wiki, I decided that I would read about the first season here.

I should not find out key information about upcoming seasons when reading a season 1 episode page without significantly placed spoiler alerts. I have learnt of 2 of the main cast who are later revealed to be cylons when I certainly did not want to know. This has significantly spoiled some major plot points, and things that would shock and amaze me will be anti-climatic. I cannot adequetely express how truelly angry I am at this site. (And frankly I'm astonhished that I have managed to aviod cussing).

I agree that no episode page should blab facts from newer episodes; this rule should be easy to follow.

Other spoilers might be more difficult to avoid. In the German version, we have serious spoiler problems because the end of season 3 is currently broadcasted, but some know parts of season 4 from the English version already. Many spoiler warnings are missing, and others are outdated; especially the latter are difficult to track.

I'd suggest reluctance when putting spoiling information in boilerplates; it is not necessary for a page about a cylon to tell about all of its/his/her colleagues. Things like this can be done using categories which tell their story only when explicitely viewed. --Tobias 17:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a challenging, but not impossible suggestion. There will be many people who have not watched the show. While the Re-imagined Series was in production, episode guides were the primary method to stay spoiler free until airing. Now, all the "dirty laundry" is out. But a good point is raised. Information could be made more sequential, so that, through a simple visual cue, a reader could know that this so-and-so is a season 1 character from the episode "Blah-blah". Then the hard part; writing articles to detail not their "current" status, but their chronological details, preferably by season so a reason knows when to stop reading as to not be spoiled. This doesn't stop a reader from clicking on any link they see, but if we can redo articles on this premise, we could--MAYBE--format things to minimize revelations from Season 4 that are written in episode and character summaries at their article's start. I'll want to think about this and get other's comments; it would be a massive wiki formatting challenge, but it would minimize over-spoilage (but never eliminate). A lot on many pages are cruft, anyway, and this could also help simplify content throughout. I'm thinking over it. --Spencerian 21:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

May I ask which two characters and on which page/s you learned this? -- Noneofyourbusiness 14:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The Analysis for Tigh me up, Tigh me down in season 1 clearly states two human cylons. An earlier episode analysis makes a suggestion of a another character who is revealed, but I am not going back to re-read it - because I've somehow managed to convince myself that it was only a suggestion.--Flinty82 07:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)