Talk:Hero/Archive2

Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington?  :)

I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --StrayCat0 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)

That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. Gavrilo Princip might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --CalculatinAvatar^(C-T) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the Cylons had been violating the armistice line for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.TaKometer 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the attack, but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? Jrmurph 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)

I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --Straycat0 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Another Battlestar?

There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? Bstone 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)

It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)

Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. Bstone 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)

You can visit Valkyrie as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --Spencerian 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)

It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. SimsHsia 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)

The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--Mike 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)

It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --Talos 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --Serenity 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --Useless 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. SimsHsia 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)

That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --Serenity 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

The Stealth-Star

hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378

Already done Stealth Star. --Talos 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed

it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six? Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Snorkel378 (talk • contribs).

You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)

It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wldkt1 (talk • contribs).

Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys ~~~~ --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)

The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.Dallan007 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)

It could be that Caprica-Six sees this as a way to weaken Baltar--after all, the formula for getting Baltar to give up secrets seems pretty clear: get in his bed, get in his head, so to speak. Remember that during the torture in previous episodes, he said to Three, "I love you with all of my heart." That's what started the relationship, so I think Three is interested in Baltar for whatever reason, not necessarily Six. Plus, on a more humorous note...I have to wonder if the Cylons have any sexual relations amongst themselves at all. This could be one deprived Cylon... Rose Immortal 13:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Speculation on Cylon sexual orientation aside, I think we all can agree that Baltar is one lucky sonofabitch. --BklynBruzer 05:28, 21 November 2006 (CST)

weell, if put aside the whole electro-shock thing and the drilling in the ear thing. Face it, Baltar had to work hard for that threesome.--Straycat0 09:47, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Well, yes, he did work hard for it, but doesn't everyone work hard for a threesome? --BklynBruzer 17:53, 21 November 2006 (CST)

A threesome with Six and Three would be cool, but personally, I think a threesome with two Eights would be awesome, and far better. But that's because the Eights are my favorites NickScryer 22:02, 21 November 2006 (CST)

The Black Ops Mission

Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the Valkyrie track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the Valkyrie throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --Cleophus 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the incident involving Francis Gary Powers can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.

In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into any Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then Valkyrie would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are you doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- Hawke 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

--Is it possible that the Stealth Star was shot down by a Colonial Force in hopes that it would percipitate a conflict? Similar to the Gulf of Tonkin? This way the Colonials can say one of their ships got lost and was destroyed by the Cylons in cold blood (Or something along those lines). Also, it makes no sense a ship would jump in, shoot the S-Star, and jump out. Why wouldnt it commit to killin the S-Star? --Skrip00 16:31, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Perhaps. We don't know either way. To be honest, after some seriously critical thought about it on my part, there's really not much of it that makes sense, since it was poorly explained in the episode. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 16:55, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Folks in White Robes

Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steve (talk • contribs).

- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- Hawke 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II. --Noindiecred 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Well I agree she's in the opera house from KLG, but I don't think I'm referring to the drapes. In the initial shot of the opera house, there seem to be five glowing figures standing between the six white drapes. Some of the quick shots of the opera house that follow show these figures, and some do not (as though they are alternately hiding and revealing themselves). At the end of her experience, Three approaches and reaches out to one of these figures just before she is resurrected. --Steve 02:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Sorry, you're right. I watched the episode again and noticed them. (Don't know why I missed them the first time, I was watching on a huge HDTV then!) I have a feeling that in the next few episodes, Three is going to keep having "accidental" deaths, and we'll see these figure again. --Noindiecred 20:26, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Reference to Raising Arizona?

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MikeDanger (talk • contribs).

Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages ~~~~ --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this:

- You busted outta jail?

- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.

- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us. -- Spike 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Insight into Cylon plan

If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as kill all humans, as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. Drumstick 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)

The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)

IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.

As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la Babylon 5. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they do know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --Drumstick 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. Rose Immortal 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Possible Discontinuity

According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some two years prior to the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--Drumstick 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.

Gaeta: And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. (Miniseries)

Adama: We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. (Act of Contrition)

Adama: She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? (The Farm)

Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to Galactica at six years prior to the miniseries.

--Peter Farago 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

It is quite possible that this is not an error per se. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--Xealot 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)

The dossier's progression from XO of Columbia to Commander of Valkyrie to Commander of Galactica seems to indicate that Valkyrie was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --Steelviper 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

It's really embarassing in continuity. If they had put the entire affair a few years further into the past, it would have made much more sense not only in Adamas biography, but also in the overall plot. Boomer served on Galactica for two years and probably spend some additional time at flight school, so Adama must know the Cylon infiltration started long before the Stealth-Star incident. This should really get Adama to ask himself how long the attack had been planned, though he might convince himself that the Cylons put their infiltrators in place just as a precaution and his actions led to their decision to actually use them. A few years more time between the attack and the incident would put the estimated start of Cylon infiltration (which actually could be anywhere between 2 and 20 years before the attack) around the same time, giving Adama a far more powerful reason to believe that he started it right there. I would like to think that putting the incident one year before attack was just an accident, but then it would probably become even more difficult to explain how Bulldog survived that long.

Another point that's problematic: did Valkyrie have an integrated computer-network? Up to this episode all information we had suggested that all battlestars save Galactica had them and that it was Adamas position of no network on my ship that prevented an upgrade.

• If Valkyrie had a network Adamas politics of it's all hand on here are somewhat harder to believe. Up to now it looked like the position of a war-veteran who opposed networks on principle, this is harder to believe if he already commanded a ship with such a network.

• If there was no network on Valkyrie, then why wasn't there one? It appears extremely unlikely that the networks were all installed in the time between the incident and the attack, though the decision cannot have been made to long before Adama took command of Galactica, because the previous commander would probably have had it installed. And given that it must have been a major decision to put networks on battlestars once more it's hard to believe that the Admirality would allow commanders to pull the plug on it as they see fit. I can imagine Adamas opposition being tolerated on Galactica, because it was an old battlestar nearing it's decommissioning with a design that may have been especially hard to upgrade (regardless of Gaetas patchwork in Scattered). They could have simply decided that it was not worth the effort to force Adama to accept the upgrade. But that would be hard to believe for Valkyrie, if you are sending a battlestar on such a sensitive mission you want it at maximum performance. Nevfennas 14:49, 20 November 2006 (CST)

The network thing isn't hugely problematic. We have no notion of how old Valkyrie was. Atlantia was at least 17 years old at the time of the attack (based on Adama's dossier), and was still worthy to serve as Nagala's flagship in the Miniseries. Galactica was even older. --Peter Farago 01:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Adama's dossier may or may not help matters. If the screencap interpretation in the article is correct, then it is currently 21356 - based on the 45th anniversary of Adama's commissioning - which is consistent with what we know about Colonial Day and the Armistice. Therefore the Fall of the Colonies occurred in 21354, and that means the Valkyrie incident occurred in 21353 or thereabouts. However, the dossier goes on to state that Adama took command of Valkyrie in 21345, and Galactica in 21348. If the dossier is correct, then the Valkyrie incident had to take place in 21347 or 21348...which means that Adama's "graceful retirement" lasted for 6 years until the Fall. If this timeline is correct, then it basically blows all the dialogue in this episode out of the water, but validates everything we've seen and heard in the first two seasons. Of course, this is all contingent on the dossier being correctly interpreted - and I personally cannot make out the last two dates on screen. --Xenophon10k 19:55, 21 November 2006 (CST)

That was the conclusion we came to above. The Dossier is entirely legible and is visible on screen for over sixty frames. --Peter Farago 22:31, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Cylon detector problems

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, this one, you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. Rose Immortal 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Moved content

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, again, must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Removed content

• Dualla apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
  • That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.