Battlestar Wiki talk:State of the Wiki II

Ah, What Fresh Hell is This?

OK, after much gnashing of my teeth, I tried to be fair in making an update to my iniitally arbitrary review of our wiki to others. But now I think this page pretty much violates every single S&C and POV rule we have. Since I spent a lot of time to try to get some levelness to the playing field, I protected it while the other contributors and admins do the following:

Determine the proper name and namespace for the article.
Correct any bad math or just plain bad calculations to add/remove bias.
Reformat the article so it looks remotely readable.

Please create a new subtopic for each area that you find a problem with. Other admins can tear up, adjust, fold, spindle and mutilate the article based on all contributor comment (after unprotecting it) to aid in this. I will leave it alone from here but add my 2 cents here as required. I've done enough damage as it is. --Spencerian 22:12, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

Comparison to other Wikis

Comparing BattlestarWiki with Memory Alpha, Wookipedia, and the Great Machine:

The Great Machine is a joke. Someone could have simply transfered the Lurker's Guide into Wiki format but it's not; major character articles are little more than stubs.

WookiePedia: I do not know why you think it's bad that they have non-canonical Expanded Universe content; the Expanded Universe of Star Wars is a special case; besides they label what's EU and so forth. Incredibly detailed, in all aspects.

Memory Alpha: My mantra is "When in doubt, do what Memory Alpha would do" Memory Alpha's character bios, cast and guest pages, as well as alien race, planet, technobabble pages are excellent...however many episode guide pages themselves remain little more than stubs....I don't blame them, there's over 700 episodes.

I actually think we run BattlestarWiki better than or equal to any of these, in terms of quality, but admittedly we don't have as much material as they do, what with only 2 seasons so far...--The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 00:37, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

That was the goal of this second comparison. The results bear out your opinion: given the balance of quality and quantity, this wiki stands out. However, whether my methods in determining this is merely out of whack or REALLY out of whack is the problem, which is why I ask for some commentary to correct. If we should compare other wikis other than what I've listed, I'll be happy to amend this. As far as the "extended universe" stuff: Each SF universe handles this differently, as does each wiki. Memory Alpha realizes (I believe) that the vast amount of literature and its ensuing contradictions require it to limit what is canon, thus, like BS Wiki, it mentions novels and the like, but doesn't enter it canonically, usually noting it under the subheading, "Apocrypha." We mark anything here with "separate continuity." Babylon 5 novel content is considered canon, and Star Wars, well, I know its generally canonical as LFL watches for certain points and limits what events, locales and characters can be handled. To draw a line in the sand, I had to restrict items to make a good comparison of quality and quantity. Even with the arbitrary penalties I gave Wookiepedia, it still shone well. If there is a way to make EU/noncanonical benefits work that don't affect quality and authenticity of a site in terms of this comparison, I'm all ears. --Spencerian 11:45, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Perhaps some comparisons can be made to the Lostpedia? Its of a similar size to the BSwiki just with like a 20 times more page views lol. And while not strictly a sci-fi wiki, it is based on a tv series... --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 04:56, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

I really miss the Lurker's Guide, it was such a great source of Babylon 5 info. Noneofyourbusiness 09:51, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Lurker's Guide It appears to still be up. I didn't know about it while B5 was still airing new episodes, but I used it extensively when I watched reruns and the DVD's. Good content, and no missing episodes. --Steelviper 10:08, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

I hear people mention the lurkers guide quite a lot, why hasnt it just been converted to wiki format instead of making anew like the great machine? Also another wiki for comparison is the Stargate Wiki. Lots of content but very unorganised imo. I like the episode transcripts though... Is that something that we are allowed to do? --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 10:10, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

I think maybe I'm thinking of a different Lurker's Guide. One that went offline. I remember it had a Xenobiology section. But this is good too. Noneofyourbusiness 10:12, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

See:

for discussions about transcript hosting here. --Steelviper 10:15, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Noneofyourbusiness might be referring to The B5 Tech manual, which had an xenobiology section. I don't know how canonical it is to the series, though... -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 14:57, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

No, the one I'm talking about is closed. Gone. Noneofyourbusiness 12:36, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Quantitative vs. Qualitative

While I agree with the qualitative comparisons you have made, I feel the use of numbers beyond the gathering of statistics like article count is obscuring and not elucidating your points. In particular, I don't think you can set up a reasonable numeric scoring system without a more abstract foundation, if then.

I think the setting of article numbers per season is notably arbitrary; different styles of writing would lead to different expectations in a nontrivial way. I had an elaborate justification for this typed up, but it boils down the idea that a flat number per season assumes too much.

While this kind of comparative analysis has great merit in my opinion, I cannot in good faith say the same of attempting to quantify it. --CalculatinAvatar^(C-T) 15:44, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

600 articles for Galactica 1980 will never happen. The TOS category has 369 articles, while 1980 has 36. I could see 1980 having 50-100 pretty reasonably as a long term goal, but I don't think 600 is attainable. Even TOS is unlikely to achieve such a number, though getting into the low mid four hundreds might be reasonable. Unlike 1980, though, I think a great majority of the important TOS articles have been created (even down to a lot of the minor characters).

I am glad we're looking at the numbers for this, though, and we should consider the TOS and 1980 content in our assessments. They are just as much a part of our site as the RDM stuff (though likely less visited), and should be held to the same standards. --Steelviper 15:52, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Right. Quantification is important in this for any real attempt of objective analysis, thus its use. I know its flawed for the reasons you noted. The number is arbitrary; I figured that geeks like us may find or glean technology, mentioned-only characters, events, objects, and the like that populate a season's worth. Just because there aren't an average of 600 articles per season doesn't mean we haven't fully scoured everything there is to know, and since 1980 spent more time on Earth than amidst spaceships, yes, they'll be less to see there. I appreciate CA's point: if we used our wiki to refine the "average" entries for a season to something less arbitrary than my ballpark, it may help, too. Mind you, sagas like Star Wars lend themselves to excessive detail versus character-driven shows like BSG and (at least in the past) Star Trek, so YMMV. --Spencerian 11:15, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Huh?

I was expecting to see an article about the state of the wiki and instead found an exhaustive article comparing this wiki to others. This isn't a competition. If you want to talk about the state of the wiki you should be focusing on its individual strengths and weaknesses. What others do is pretty much irrelevant. Here are a few of my thoughts:

The site is very good in its organization and technology. Most small wikis have a problem with the community portal type pages but this one is excellent in that regard.
One problem I see is that some of the articles aren't very NPOV. The entire "possible cylons" article is opinionated and seems like a flame war waiting to happen.
Also it's difficult to find episodes from the main page. For RDM you have to click that, then scroll down and find episode guide... it's quite difficult if you haven't visited the site before. --Mateo 12:37, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Sorry for the name confusion. That may have been my fault (due to an entry I left on Spence's talk). However, you did spark an idea. What about a "Strategic Planning" project? We would try to objectively assess/quantify areas of deficiency and attempt to identify solutions/projects that could help address them. While this sounds somewhat like the "Think Tank" (and it is) it is more directed in focus to coming up with a list of "What's broken/what should we focus on." For example, looking at how there are only 30 some 1980 articles, and aiming to get articles created for at least the major recurring characters for that series. Maybe even prioritize (sort by priority) the existing projects so that people would know where the areas of greatest need are at a glance. As those needs are filled the priorities would be updated. Don't mind me... I'm just brainstorming. --Steelviper 12:45, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Well thoughts on that are that yes, we are NPOV, we also have Analysis sections. Nextly, I openly wash my hands of anything relating to the Original Series or the 1980 series. I'm a fan of the Re-Imagines series. As I've said before, our only real problems here are in working out cast and crew stuff (which Joe has already proposed in the Think Tank) and the podcast transcripts. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:27, 16 August 2006 (CDT)