Battlestar Wiki:Requests for comment/Shane
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Shane
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- (Shane | talk | contributions)
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Statement of the dispute
This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.
Description
Although the "feud" between Shane and myself has already made a mockery of the RFC process, I feel like there is no other way to deal with this. I can no longer tolerate Shane's personal insults, or his behavior issues in general, and these issues must be addressed in a fair and open fashion.
Evidence of disputed behavior
I will begin by documenting Shane's personal attacks against me. I understand that our "feud" weakens my more general case against him, but I feel it's important to air our dirty laundry before moving on to broader issues.
- In Talk:Main Page/Friends Section, Shane attacked me for taking a strong position on the appearance of our links to other websites.
- In Battlestar Wiki:Featured articles/Debate for June 2006, he accused me of displaying favoritism toward an article I had created.
- In Battlestar Wiki:Requests for comment/Peter Farago and Battlestar Wiki:Requests for comment/Peter Farago (2) he initiated a string of frivolous attacks against me, in retaliation for my attempts to encourage him to pursue a more moderate behavior pattern.
- In Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/Shane, he threatened to file another such RFC against me if my vote against his adminship were allowed to stand.
I believe that these actions amount to a concerted campaign against me which has clearly entered the realm of harassment. He has strained my considerable patience nearly to the breaking point, and I cannot continue to endure this sort of abuse without complaint.
What follows is a more general, and incomplete list of my criticisms of Shane as a contributor. These are all separate issues, but they also deserve consideration as we contemplate Shane's general pattern of behavior since joining us, and any possible remedy thereto. As always, I have done my best to separate the personal interactions above from the following criticisms, which I issue in my capacity as veteran contributor and administrator.
1. Shane has consistently refused politely worded requests to display common courtesy toward other contributors. Examples:
2. Shane has, on several occasions, edited other contributors user pages:
The Jzanjani incident last year clearly demonstrated the importance of maintaining the sanctity of these areas.
3. Shane has displayed belligerent ignorance in areas to which he is clearly unqualified to contribute:
4. Shane has frequently charged ahead in potentially controversial areas without first obtaining consensus or applying due diligence.
- Most memorably, the Portals project was initiated without any plan or period for public comment. The controversy is documented at Battlestar Wiki talk:Portals.
- He prematurely moved Bradley Thompson's contributions to an official sources subpage before his identity had been confirmed: [1]
5. Shane has cleared controversial entries from his user talk, in an attempt to obscure the record:
(This edit caused the entries visible here here to be completely de-linked)
Obviously the list above is hardly complete, and I have provided only a few examples of the behaviors cited. If other users endorsing this summary can think of additional incidents, please note them.
Applicable policies
We do not currently have any policies in place regarding most of these issues. On the matter of harassment and user page edits, I believe that the Jzanjani incident sets an appropriate precedent.
Belligerence and hostility toward other users should not be tolerated under any circumstances. I hope that we don't need a formal "be nice" policy in order for my other points to proceed.
Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute
The above links contain several instances of users, including The Merovingian, Steelviper, Day and myself, who have attempted to resolve various matters.
Users certifying the basis for this dispute
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}
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- Peter Farago
- As mentioned above, there is evidence that I've expressed my concern to Shane about his behavior. My most vehement of such expressions were in connection to his handleing of the Portals project at its inception. Since that time, I've been a bit less vocal on talk pages, etc. but have talked with Shane via the Gmail chat client and attempted to urge patience and level-headedness both in his dealings with edits and other users, as well as the specific issue if his interactions with Peter. I'm not certain what measures should be taken in this case, but I definately think that this issue needs some kind of official Admin response. --Day (Talk - Admin) 02:59, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- Yes. I agree very much with numbers 1 and 4. Shane is a good contributor, but rarely compromises and just goes ahead and does things, and gets angry and thinks we're "attacking" him when we tell him to show moderation in such matters. I mean, many times I or others here make a template change, to show how it would look, as a test that is, and we're just "trying it out", but we'll change it back if it's unpopular and we haven't really implemented grand template changes on a massive scale. ---->I think the Portals project was one of the worst handled projects we've ever had. Shane made them without broad consensus but far more importantly, without planning them out far in advance. How many months were those things sitting around half finished? 2? 3? Visitors to the site probably didn't know what the heck was going on: we only just started getting a handle on the Portals. Nextly, Shane's been going into "Little Red Hen" mentality that "I made the Portals and new front page and I'm not made Administrator as a result?"--->Shane may have accumulated 5,000 edits rather quickly, but most of Shane's changes have been to the Big Dig-like Portals project. Peter and myself passed 5,000 edits some time ago...the actual number doesn't mean anything towards Administratorship. The Portals project and front page were not one of Shane's biggest claims to good behavior or something: they were controversial not planned out and I think a lot of you will admit caused a lot of yelling and fighting on BattlestarWiki. They're nice, but in terms of "Battlestar Galactica information added" Spencerian, Peter, myself, Steelviper, lots of other users have contributed more, with information, with less edits. --->but moving on, Requests for Administratorship are sacrosanct, and people CAN vote against you. It's actually up for Joe to determine if these votes are based on merite (that is, Spencerian pointing out that Shane has had judgement problems) vs. that loraque guy who never even comes to this wiki popping in to vote against me when he heard there was an RFC. That type of thing is up to Joe: but I think we'd all agree that Peter actually had "reasons" based on past behavior, for voting against Shane, and it is a serious sign that Shane is not yet ready to be an Administrator, and show the moderation ability an Administrator needs, if he starts requests for comment when people vote against him. ------>Moving on, yes, an Administrator needs to be able to try to resolve disputes. I've got times I've tried to do that with other users, so has Peter, Spence, SV, lots of other people. Shane just gets angry when people disagree with him and acts like he's been attacked. Another aspect of the "moderation" part is deciding what to put into BSwiki--->Shane just tends to believe whatever he hears when we get rumors or new information. Case in point I strongly agree with Peter when it came to the Bradley Thompson thing: I'm happy it was indeed him but there's every chance it wasn't, and Shane just instantly assumed it was Thompson without confirmation...and proceeded to make more templates about official production team status and changes to his user page and such. To be honest, Shane is GREAT at making Wiki code and templates, but his contributions to the actual battlestar information *in terms of weighing options and deciding what to keep, what to concise, what to leave out and what to compromise with others on*...well he just tends to believe everything, do what he wants and then jump into a whirlwind of work without asking the rest of us. Yikes; during the Portals project's long production I remember several of us practially *Demanding* that he at least pause what he was doing, and he went on to make MORE portals. ------->I don't want to yell at Shane because he means well, but he has been pretty irresponsible. I mean I goofed up on that KR thing, but that wasn't a "behavior pattern" so much as just a big goof, and moreover, I recinded that and have been trying to come to terms with KR through PM's and other stuff on the messageboards. Six months ago I was "that hothead guy" I admit (bear in mind, in college I'm functioning on 3 hours of sleep on a regular basis and thus was predictably "short" at the time, but I'm more coherent now, and, on the whole I sohuld hope, I'm been more compromising or at least discussiing why I feel things. I don't think that in his current performance, Shane should be an Administrator so I agreed with Spencerian and Peter: does this mean I "hate" Shane and have a "grudge" with him? No. Nor does Peter. He's an Admin and he's trying to enforce our Conventions and behavior and such. Reacting to a vote against his RFA by Peter by making a request for comment was really a clear sign that he doesn't have the right behavior needed for Administrator status. If anything I feel that Shane's behavior "breaks even"; the portals and new front page are nice, but their creation and implementation have caused a lot of arguement here, and Shane's just seems easily bruised by comments. It took me a while to realize I couldn't respond to stuff here the way I would on a messageboard, but I did eventually. I don't think we should give Shane a warning ban or censure or such felgercarb, he's an okay guy he just needs to work on his behavior around the wiki more and show restraint a little. Six months time, who knows? things might turn around and then I'll vote for him. But right now, I dunno. I agree with Peter on a lot of his points, as I did with Spencerian's on the RFA. --The Merovingian (C - E) 09:51, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- There is little I have to add on this matter per comments on other articles, and concur with Merv's notes (if just a bit winded :). Maturity and responsibility, knowing when NOT to do something as well as when, is critical to getting along in the real world, or here. I am not against the notion of forcing Shane to calm down by a 1-week to 1-month block, but I'd rather that he show some reflection on what others have said here before we consider such action, as, despite some of the issues that Peter has encountered, the majority of Shane's work is worthy and well intentioned, and our wiki will be diminished a bit while he is blocked from edits. I find it interesting and pleasant that Merv (nee Ricimer) has come a long way from where he began here to where I hope Shane will also be; Merv appears more enlightened on the workings of the wiki and (most importantly) interacting with the people on it, and his comments stand to that. It may be that Shane, like Merv, also a valued contributor, needs to sit back to understand and not just do. A tougher "skin" would also be appreciated. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly...then don't submit it here.--Spencerian 10:36, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
Other users who endorse this summary
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- --The Merovingian (C - E) 09:52, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
Response
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.
This is simple:
- I do not contribuate infomration to the articles. Just the backend.
- The earlisit of time when I request comment and NO one had commented for over a month.
- Portals where not linked. They were worked on in the background. The only time I posted when I requested comments and a "poll": Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Portals#Vote_How.3F. Portal work was not done with the approvoal of the wiki, but Joe: Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Portals#Chill.2C_Cree.21. As you can tell there is only one section in which I post in. Other than that it was Peter attacking the system. Peter orginially filled an RFC against me for this matter and no one supported it. (I request that be retored). I am not sure if he posted out about a new portal discussion: Battlestar_Wiki:Portals
- User:Jzanjani was way before my time.
- Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Main_page There is no comments from Peter accept him Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Main_page#Style_Consensus. I requested more comment, and Peter did not fully explain his intensions: Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Main_page#More_Comment
- Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Policy
- Myself and Bradley Thompson have been talking over e-mail since he joined. Also if you did a search for his username on Google and my private database, his name comes up.
- http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Shane&diff=prev&oldid=52289#Status - Ignoring does not work with Peter so I started doing it before this.
- User_talk:Shane/Archive03#Template:Location_Data - Refering to the comments. I was recently told that if no one comments they have no problem with it. Template_talk:Location_Data Proiving a point why we should have a template.
- Posted many things to Category:Candidates for deletion, to responses. None.
- Template_talk:Email i never objected to it other than stating my option on the change and from what I know. Peter snaped at me.
- Gmail conversations with Peter
- My favorite: Battlestar_Wiki:Requests_for_comment/Shane/All_of_GMail_Conversations_with_Peter#Peter_Fargo_April_9 - 2:56 AM Peter: shane, I hope you'll believe me when I say that I don't mean to be insulting by telling you this, but most of the time it's extremely difficult to understand what you're talking about. It's a serious communication barrier. Can I ask if English is your first language?
- Talk:Main_Page/Friends_Section - No one else had a problem with this other than Peter. And depmanding a change before people even had a chance to comment was not in good faith.
- BW:FA - Finshed May20th. No comments until the process started.
And mostly, there are no policies that I am breaking. So I have not done anything wrong execpt post my vaild reasons (strongly) on issues I beleive in. So if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. --Shane (T - C - E) 10:46, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
- I don't know where else to put this (on second thought "outside views" seemed bad) but I need to comment on this Response somewhere (Admins move it if somewhere else is more appropriate):
- 1)" I do not contribuate infomration to the articles. Just the backend." --->What does that mean? "backend"? What? One of the main points of BattlestarWiki isn't making many categories and templates, but judging what material to put in and keep out, working on our Question and Analysis sections and deciding what should stay and what shouldn't. Shane has, mostly, just been incredibly overzealous with Wikipedia Code, putting in things we didn't use to use; yikes, it's a dozen regulars and some guests fixing stuff; we're not aggressively pursuing everything from the "Policy" page: most of it's just copied from Wikipedia's, and we learn and adapt as we go. Shane's constant defense seems to be "I was following the Policies and Rules": Shane has become consumed by the formality of running a Wiki, rather than battlestar or the other users on this site.
- Backend is soemthing that no one sees, but uses it. It's like the code to MediaWiki. My first edits where done on articles and way way way back then my changes were made so I stoped doing it and just worked on the backend. My background is in programming. Not english, though this is my language.
- 2) No one commented on the Portals project because we were waiting for Shane to announce that he was "done" with it, or that it was finally in a presentable form. But Shane was continually "working" on things, starting projects, not finishing them, then acting surprised when we critiqued or tried to change them.
- I hadn't finshed ebcause I was waiting for software update. Once that was done it could be marked done. So everyone edits were premature.
- 3) Yes, you were asked to make a test run of a Portals system--->It was implemented, and but not entirely finished and usable for a very long time. Yes, it was put up in places half finished or not thought through fully.
- A test run? I created on Wikipieda: Wikipedia:Portal:Battlestar Galactica. You even commented on it during the process. Again, it was put on hold due to mediaWiki which joe can confirm for you if you want.
- 4) It is irrelevant that the Jzanjani incident was before your time: as was linked on this page and stated, it was a problem involving a user changing someone else's user pages consistently: a link was then provided to the comments on that user's page chastising him for what he did, and why. It doesn't matter that it was "before your time", the lesson learned from it stands. The "Miranda incident" happened years before I was born, but I sure hope the police respect my Miranda rights which resulted from it today.
- You even put something on his page after he left. there was no policy in place. Me and mercifull were working together on his own user page (check the history) and no one commented on it. Then we created the BW:SI project.
- 5) We kept waiting for you to say "this is finished", or to work on it more, and then we'd critique it....this is a hard thing to do to something perpetually half finished. Peter was just doing his job. SteelViper and I even started toying around with a mockup alternate new Main page based on MemoryAlpha's, as your's was dragging on and did not appear to be making progress.
- Again, this is not MA. My mockup was done before Steel's. Check the dates, and I had stop because of the "Mediawiki" problem which was address during the creation.
- 6) How can you possibly cite, with not explanation just a link, "Battlestar Wiki talk:Policy" your proposed policy page in your defense?! It met with unanimous disaproval, Joe didnt' support you just up and writing it without even proposing it, it was filled with "names and titles" for enforcing templates behavior and code and such (which Shane seems overly zealous about) but little to do with Battlestar Galactica.
- I have accauly re-edited that page and again waited for comment with no avil.
- 7) This is the first I've heard of you talking with Bradley Thompson. This is your own matter and you don't have to, but would you be willing to tell us what you talked about? Why have you been doing this without telling us? Or did you tell Peter & Co, how have g-mail, as I myself don't make use of it? ***MOST IMPORTANTLY***, if you *already knew it was Bradley Thompson*, because you searched his username on Google mail (which I didn't think of as I simply do not possess a G-mail account) Why didn't you announce this on his user talk page? Why did you keep it to yourself? Even when I made a post there specifically asking for confirmation of his identity? Peter had to call the production office himself (I do not know the specifics of this). ---->Thompson in fact e-mailed ME, directly, telling me that I shouldn't try to confirm his identity through asking Ron Moore's wife on the messageboard, but he gave me the phone number for the production office and everything: however, by the time I checked my e-mail, he must have given similar information to Peter who then phoned and confirmed it (good), so I didn't need to make mention of his e-mail anymore because it was a moot point by then--->but had Peter not done so first, I would have told everyone else about this when someone publicly asked for confirmation of this.
- I will not explain on how I do things and how I get information.--Shane
- Ignoring all else, can you please tell us why you did not post confirmation that this was Bradley Thompson, but instead Peter had to go and phone the production office itself, if you already had such information?--The Merovingian (C - E) 17:14, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- 8) "Ignoring does not work"...what does that mean? Shane disappeared for a few days, people were asking if he was still even here or not...how does this reflect poorly on Peter or anyone?
- Blocked him on GTalk.
- Kept in contact with Joe and Steel
- 9) See my talk on the discussion page for location template, to which I have already added back a "delete" tag, as 3-4 users commenting on it isn't enough to judge consensus on it, and moreover as you were one of the involved parties in a Deletion discussion, the most you should have done is asked for a formal vote (which Shane rarely if ever does) and not gone on and removed the tag by yourself.
- Joe did not agree with the delete, but he thought the use of it was misused, as peter did with a few pages with {{Character Data}}
- A template not used is but is usefull shouldn't be deleted until it becomes aparent that there is a use for it.
- 10) Like what?
- I do not want to list them, but you can check the history.
- 11) You were unaware of the rule, yes, but pointing it out to you, and disproving your previous misconception, is not "snapped".
- That was after a long stressfull augrement on another factor and I thought that what partiapated the new template that I was working on.
- 12) That sounded like an honest question. We get all sorts at BattlestarWiki.
- I am on the english part. Why would I not post in a "native" lanague first?
- 13) Again, Shane never made it clear when he was done, I have already some time ago replied to the discussion on that page, agreeing with Peter and asking Shane to stop asking petulant. Frak, every single time something's wrong "The Administrators are ganging up on me". Sometimes people are just wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong. Does this mean the Administrators shouldn't correct me? Regardless Peter wasn't acting as an administrator but a user. ****"NO one comments on templates", no because "they agree", but because for many templates Shane rushes them and finishes them before people can see how they function or if they're worth keeping. And when we said we didn't like something, such as the locations template, he overeacted.
- No one else announces when they are done. All they do is stop working on it. The podcast project had a system because of the large ammount of data.
- 14) Finally, Shane never implemented the Featured Article system after creating it, and didn't make an announcement to start using it or that it was done: I had to kick start it. Check the history tags: last week of May I realized "The Featured Article and Picture sections aren't being used at all, and the Portals are NOT being regularly updated. I then went around trying to actually START the process of nominating these: Shane made a shiny looking template, with many rules and policies written on its implementation, but ultimately didn't put it to use after "finishing" it. So I tried to just nominate "Galactica (RDM)" as a featured article, but it turns out that the "Featured Article" *process*, not just a code template, obviously wasn't finished as after I made the simple request for "Galactica" Shane and Peter got into a raging arguement about it's implementation. I'm not taking sides too much on that one (though I think I agreed to Peter, with caveats). Either way, the "Featured Article" project was not one of Shane's high points, but something we had to kick-start into actually USING after he wrote more code and templates and policies. --The Merovingian (C - E) 16:42, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- I was being proper and waiting for comment. That's why I never created the template. Once you created the first template to be placed on a page, I figured it was ok to go ahead and do something about the full process. I even noted that there was no activitey on these pages and nothing been updated. I go around and update pages everyonce in a while since no one else has done it.
How come I am being blamed for creating something THAT Joe does not mind? Joe loved the new main page and even implemented on my Birthday. --Shane (T - C - E) 17:06, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
Outside view
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Discussion
- Per Shane's request, I have restored my initial RFC from some months ago here. --Peter Farago 12:46, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- Merv, I understand that you disagree with the need for this, but I really think Shane's behavior has gone on far too long and reached levels far too egregious for us to continue to ignore it. The administrative responses available to us are limited, and our only real enforcement mechanism is temporary blocks. I therefore suggest the following:
- A one-week block in response to the issues cited above, and
- Following that, a one-month probationary period during which that block may be reinstated with the consensus of a majority of administrators. --Peter Farago 12:46, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- I wanted to be moderate and understanding, but after I read Shane's "Response" (I'll make a commentary on his response in "outside views", I think that's the spot for it?) I now support the one week warning ban and subsequent one month probation period for Shane, along with you and Spencerian. --The Merovingian (C - E) 16:02, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- I would hate to see this enforced, and then Joe come along and remove it. That would be a real shame that the real owner of this site that we all use for the purpose of providing information does not see this as a real solution. As anyone tried to communicate to Joe? When I can't handle stuff with other admins, I talk to the person who has the real power, and that has been Joe. But I rather walk off than be banned. --Shane (T - C - E) 16:13, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- Again, rather than try to act maturely about this and try to compromise or reform and we've given you like 3 opportunities now, you keep coming back with another reply snapping back at all of us; for god's sake you're digging yourself a deeper grave and we're trying to help by POINTING OUT the problem: are we calling for outright permanent banning or something? No. Just stern warnings. And time after time you just refuse to come back to the table. It's not the initial problems that made me want to favor a warning one week ban: it's the defiant refusal to acknowledge that the Administrators are acting in the best interest of BattlestarWiki. Dammit, I hate when Olive branches of peace or at least avenues at getting back into good graces are just thrown away....but one of our central complaints is that you don't listen to the group, you just up and do things and then demand that you have the right to. Even I try and boldly spearhead some things, the difference is A) the constant level that you do it at B) I STOP when people are upset with things, and try to COMPROMISE. -------------------------->I tried giving you chances at appology and FRAK I even opposed doing this at first, but I'm bringing up a temporary one week warning ban for Shane as a proposal on the Administrator noticeboard. If Shane "leaves" in protest, that's one of the MOST imature things to do and even more evidence that he is unfit to be here and play well with others: and if he stops coming, and then after 6 months of abscence comes BACK, how does that in any way let us know that his actual BEHAVIOR has changed? It doesn't. If Shane leaves in the middle of this arguement it's the equivalent of jumping a state line and laughing at your prosecutors. If he does that, the most immature thing I can think of in such a situation, he should be banned in absentia. --The Merovingian (C - E) 16:54, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
- All I seen is "ban". I don't see any suggestions. I am posting my respones to what people write to defend myself. I have even tried in the past few contribs to be "Correct". Me and Peter were battleing over "BW:CITE" on one of the articles. A "ban" does not change me nor options. You are saying I want you to do it more "auguementive" that most people. I am not the one who posted something ont he SciFi boards making fun of someone. At least I say it outloud. And reposting it on BSG is not an excuess. You see where my anger comes at? You have never appologized EVEN to me. --Shane (T - C - E) 17:14, 25 June 2006 (CDT)