Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

Please aid in concision

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --Spencerian 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --Ricimer 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

"At least" 2 years

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although wide-scale infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --Ricimer 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --Peter Farago 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --Spencerian 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they first used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --Ricimer 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --Noneofyourbusiness 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)

This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Billy's Entry

There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --Spencerian 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --Ricimer 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --Peter Farago 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot unless he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that Galactica was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --Spencerian 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --Drumstick 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)

He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually disprove the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Apollo's Entry

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --Noneofyourbusiness

Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --Day 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Under no circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it endlessly on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --The Merovingian 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Baltar's Entry

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--Mojorising1985 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have not mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --Peter Farago 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --Mojorising1985 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --Peter Farago 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.

My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:

• Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
• Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
• Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
• As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.

So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --The Merovingian 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

• I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, Spencerian, to remind you of our Gentlemanly wager, that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --The Merovingian 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --Peter Farago 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --The Merovingian 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since only Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually reinforces, not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since both Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the exact kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --Spencerian 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --mojorisng1985 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --Redwall 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could possibly be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --Peter Farago 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives o­n the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --The Merovingian 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think he was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --Spencerian 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Additional Qualifier for Speculation?

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents. --Mckooper 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--Noneofyourbusiness 16:31, 6 March (EST)

This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --Day 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

Lay Down Your Burdens

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? Ragestorm 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --The Merovingian 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --Saforrest 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)

They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"MrXerox 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

The Chief?

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, (Flight of the Phoenix). --FIDS 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? Ragestorm 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents would plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.

Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--Noneofyourbusiness 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)

Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --Peter Farago 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)

Analysis

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

Makes sense to me... --Day ^(talk) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

Baltar as Cylon Zero

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --Sauron18 12:37 19 April 2006

After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --Spencerian 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --Spencerian 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

I agree. Sorry, Spence. --Peter Farago 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --Spencerian 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --Sauron18 15:06, 19 April 2006

No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --Peter Farago 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --Spencerian 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Restructuring

I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who have "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "Possibility of being a Cylon: None". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate". If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --Day ^{(Talk - Admin)} 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

Cheif and Cally + Company

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon." Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. This is not a Keep list.):

• Laura Roslin
• Tory Foster
• Cheif
• Helena Cain
• Tom Zarek
• Kara Thrace
• Cally
• Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called Human speculation. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --Steelviper 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)