Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

• Archive 1:

Specialist Cally, Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial, How Many Admirals, Insignia, Tyrol & Hadrian, "Gunny", Second Chart, Back to Officer Ranks..., Piping, Colorization

• Archive 2:

Abbreviations, Rank Pins, General update of the page, Gold Bars, Assumptions, USAF?, Commander equals more to USN Captain, my argument, Idea for updated comparison list, Impressive Page, 1 Nitpick about dense chart

Number

Shouldn't Commander be listed as O-7 and Rear Admiral as O-8? Not even getting into the debate over the officer/flag officer status of the Commander rank (although it could go either way (the Colonial forces could have seven officer ranks)), but why is it listed as N/A? It's clearly higher than Colonel, which is O-6. --Kevin W. 21:05, 26 November 2006 (CST)

The numbers correspond with the US ranks, not the BSG ranks. Philwelch 01:13, 27 November 2006 (CST)

PO3

I understand the note about Venner, since PO3 and Cpl are equivalent, but the page itself does quote RDM who says that there is no PO3 grade. How can the page be modified to show this? --Kevin W.^{•So say we all} 18:27, 17 December 2006 (CST)

Mhh, you're right. Though I don't consider that one blog entry as the very last word on it. Ideas might have changed a bit by now. Who knows.

Anyways, the list incluces PO3 mainly for the sake of completion I guess. It does say that some aspects of the table are speculative and that was always ok. You could add a footnote, like done for all other annotations. Then the explination shows up under "references". --Serenity 10:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)

New information

There's an article that is a few months old on galactica.tv about the pins and symbols of the uniforms here. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 08:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

The new information is really the tiny details that are available from of the pins. Our insignia pictures are from that very same rank chart, so the information is already reflected, except for the narrower Lt.j.g. pin. I can update that later. We just have drawings instead of photographs which is somewhat cleaner however. Maybe the great photo of the Commander pin could be included somehow? (like "more images").

Maybe the information on the other uniform devices could be put on Uniforms (RDM) though. --Serenity 09:10, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Sounds good. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 09:30, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Recent round of edits

I got caught up in this again. If I come off as harsh or all to superior, I'm really sorry, but I think this page is pretty good as it is. And all the rest is really pretty nitpicky.

I think it comes down to to different approaches:

1. That the whole comparison to modern militaries (specifically the US Navy) is overdone.
2. Some people seem to be more interested having a close to perfect comparison. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I'm clearly in camp 1. Sure there are many parallels. But it's not exactly the same. So this page shouldn't be forced to do something that just isn't there. And in the last major overhauls I tried to excise many of the unnecessary comparisons and make more BSG arguments for things. As it stands, we have reasonable good evidence (sometimes conjectural) that commander more closely resembles a modern captain. Like it doesn't seem to be considered a flag rank; and Roslin also seems to imply that she sees Adama as captain in "Resurrection Ship, Part II". The rest is just made fit as best as possible. Putting Lt. opposed to Lt. make most sense, and so that leaves one rank free. It's not all that clear, but it's there.

So how do other people feel about this? Not so much about the details, but the whole approach of the article. Is the US Navy thing really that important? Should the article be more about BSG? Should we maybe just ditch the comparison if it's so troublesome and not perfect anyways? I think we can keep it, but it just needs to be clear that it's not supposed to be 1:1. I updated the introduction further to try to reflect that. Maybe I'm just too invested here, because I made a lot substantial edits to it, but I also don't like if people just change substantial things, when we had a sort-of consensus about it.

To the people who made those edits: I know you are new. I know that you haven't read everything. And I really don't want to seem overly harsh to you. That's why I'm trying to explain and discuss this here. :) --Serenity 11:44, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Why not just scrap the US Naval Rank column

Absent anything from Ron Moore or the writer's bible, it's all speculation and guesstimation. The only salient comparisons within the RDM Galactica universe would be Fleet vs. Marines. The "Official Statement" is self-explanatory. And like a lot of good fiction, sometimes it's best to leave some details to the individual's own imagination ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fredmdbud (talk • contribs).

Yeah, I'm just about ready do that. We can also keep it, but people just have to realize that it won't fit perfectly. It's a rough guideline, but nothing more. I've inserted two paragraphs now that point that out, without actually hitting the reader of the head.

That whole part is really from the very first version of this article, that was actually more about finding arguments for that comparison table than documenting the BSG universe. Sure you can make a table that lines all up 1:1, but after some discussion most people felt that there are more points to compare the BSG rank of commander to a real world captain, and the rest is built around that. --Serenity 04:38, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

My only concern with deleting it is that it's the type of thing that might get periodically re-added by passers-by. I'd advise some note on the article to head that off, but I have doubts as to whether that would be heeded. --Steelviper 12:55, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

True. And while it's not that important, there is some merit to the comparison. It shouldn't be taken too seriously (pot.kettle.black. ;)), but some people are probably interested to know where certain ranks fall. In retrospect I realize that while there were explanations for certain ranks, there was no explanation for the overall structure. That was an oversight that is hopefully corrected now. We can't expect people to read long arguments on the talk pages to understand how some things are decided, and parts of this article were just presented "as is" without clarification. --Serenity 13:27, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Room for other ranks?

It is hard to beleive that the ranks shown thus far are the only ones. There would logically be something like Midshipman for officer trainees and Lieutenant-Colonel. If so, the Midshipman grad would be easy to figure out (a white diamond), though Lt. Col would be a little more difficult, given the differences between the Colonel and Major insignia. Just a thought... Expatkiwi 16:58, 27 December 2007 (PST)

True. However, we go with ranks that we've either seen or heard on screen or via behind-the-scenes sources. We don't really speculate on any "missing" ranks, since that falls under "fanwanking". -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Sanctuary Wiki — New} 19:05, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Specialist classes

IMO the specialist class ranks from the Flight of the Phoenix and Revelations credits should be considered official unless they are refuted by a more recent official source. -- Gordon Ecker 04:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

What specialist class ranks are you referring to?-- Fredmdbud 04:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The credits list Figurski as "Specialist 3rd class". So, there appear to be at least 3 subdivisions here. But it's not that clear how they should be split up. We also only have a single rank insignia for specialist. I'll add a footnote for now, as it should be noted. It should probably be included into the table, but the question is how. -- Serenity 06:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

RDM's list

Seeing the edits on the page, I need to chime in here. RDM's list, which was published over three years ago, is not the definitive list and we should not be a slave to it. There have been introductions of new ranks since then, like Lt. Colonel and Rear Admiral, that are not included on his list. Conspicuously, he does not include "Warrant Officer" (which there is a pin for, and these are the guys in the BG with the beige BDUs), in addition to Private (like Stewart Jaffee). I'll try to post the definitive list in a few weeks, but the edits that Serenity did are the most accurate to date with the presently available information I have. Attempts to revert them will probably resort in the page being locked, just so you know, since I don't want a needless edit war to break out. Thanks! -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, just what I was thinking. I don't get why this should be the definite list. It's a fine basis, but it's old and things have been added since then. And this page has always been speculative. In the past far more so than now. It's not like the speculative ranks aren't marked. I've included an (s) for those two ranks now, in addition to the footnotes. I wouldn't just add all kinds of speculation just because it sounds nice, but it's marked clearly enough. If people would rather have something more "official" they are free to skip those lines. It just doesn't make much sense to skip vice admiral for no reason, when rear admiral and admiral have been established, given that the ranks more or less follow real-world examples otherwise. And it's been on the list for one or two years without anyone really objecting.

In general my reverts here, have also been about style. Mainly odd capitalization. Things like "commissioned officer" just aren't capitalized (unless in the headers of the table and such). But neither are ranks. It's "Johnson is a lieutenant", but "Tell Lieutenant Johnson". That's also what Wikipedia uses, though they are a bit inconsistent with it. Other sources like this, this or this also make this clear. I've also noted that people try to capitalize "president" and "vice president" on every occasion. The same rules usually apply there unless it's the full title of the office like "President of the Twelve Colonies"-- Serenity 17:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

All true. By the way, I'd like to get rid of the "Junior Grade"/"Senior Grade" stuff and simply go with "Junior Lieutenant" and "Senior Lieutenant", since this is what they identify these ranks by behind the scenes. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

On screen both are used though (though in props mostly junior lieutenant). They seem to exist side by side. There is a footnote about it, actually (#7). Maybe that could be changed to make it clearer, or switched around. -- Serenity 17:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The only real mentions of "Lieutenant Junior Grade" are in the Miniseries, and that was quickly dropped, along with a few other things that didn't quite work from the miniseries. (Such as the "Blade Runner" guns from the Miniseries, which weren't built to last anyway and were just poorly designed.) But I see your point. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Initial new information

This is by no means the complete list of ranks, but it's based off the pin-ordering sheet I have in front of me. (No, I can't scan it. Sorry.)

From highest to lowest (these are the "green fill" verisons):

• Crew Master Chief
• Crew Senior Chief (this is what Tyrol wears before his demotion for being an ass)
• Sergeant 1st Class (basically the Junior Lieutenant, except the fill is green, not gold).
• Crew Sergeant (like crew specialist, but has another border—with no breaks—between the outside border and the diamond)
• Crew Specialist
• Crewman (which is the same pin as the "Private" that Jaffee wears)
• Crewman Apprentice

The gold versions:

• Commander
• Colonel
• Warrant Officer (worn by those in the beige BDUs, it's similar to the Crew Master Chief, itself a cross between the Lt. Col and Crew Senior Chief pips)
• Lt. Colonel (these are the pins that Dualla was wearing in "LDYB" Pt. II
• Major
• Captain
• Senior Lieutenant
• Junior Lieutenant

As we've already determined earlier, the "ensign" rank pin does not exist.

I'm working on finding about the Admiral pins.

Also, an interesting story about the flight wings that the pilots wear... the symbols in the middle resemble the Captain's rank pins. There's a reason for this. The pins were also supposed to echo the rank of the wearer, but this idea was abandoned during the production. I don't know why, but I'll lay my money on the fact that it had to do with cost. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 01:01, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That actually fits pretty well with the current structure (aside from the names), but some of the enlisted ranks as they are now have been established in dialogue. For example, Dualla is called petty officer second class by Billy, and I think Tyrol is identified as chief petty officer as well. The term "petty officer" in general is also mentioned (for example by Adama when he demotes Tyrol). So that would screw things up a bit.

As for warrant officer. Not everyone in beige BDUs can be a WO. Some of the Marines who have been identified with other ranks wear them as well, most notably Hadrian. It would probably be more accurate to say that in practice all WOs wear beige. -- Serenity 12:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The warrant-officers-in-khaki thing has always left me scratching my head ... why single out warrant officers with a different style uniform, but have the officers and enlisted wear the same color fatigues? For comparison's sake, in the US Navy, ranks of chief petty officer and above wear khaki service uniforms like officers (hence the term "khaki leadership"), making it easy to make the "chiefs-vs-indians" distinction in a crowd. Maybe it was easier (and cheaper) to "ret-con" the khakis as warrant officer uniforms and kind of sneak by on the collar insignia (which had little chance with a crowd like this :-)), rather than go through the cost and time of developing new insignia.-- Fredmdbud 01:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

There's that too, but it's fiction, so why not? But the other other points that speak against being all khakis = WOs. For example that the uniform is used a lot (there shouldn't be that many WOs from what I understand), is also used by Marine Sergeants (and others) and also worn by a lot of young crewmen. Warrant officers should generally be a bit older I think. It might have been thought of that way, but I don't think the wardrobe department really adheres to it closely. Not that I blame them. -- Serenity 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, this list is a little confusing, it seems like it's a combination of marine and fleet ranks. When you get a chance Joe, I'd like to say a side by side break down of rank equivalents, I have some other questions regarding this list but I'll hold them because I think a side-by-side might answer them. Particularly because some of Joe's comments seem to contradict what we have known up to know.

I'm sure you guys have all seen the graphical rank guide put out by somebody (I can't remember the name of the top of my head but I'd be interested both to see the next update and how the new information jibes with the current version. Does anybody know how to contact this guy?-- Grandmaester314 15:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

You might be referring to Jim Stevenson's article on galactica.tv: http://www.galactica.tv/battlestar-galactica-2003---news/the-history-of-the-rank-insignia-chart-for-battlestar-galactica-2003.html

IMO, I think his observations and analysis are about as speculative as the discussion in this wiki.-- Fredmdbud 01:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Fred, RDM and co. are following their own conventions; they don't have to mirror real-world conventions, at all, despite the wishes of some. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 04:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm just saying ... have there been any references, on-screen or in production notes, of "sr-lieutenant"? Lieutenant and jr-lieutenant have been used in scripts and on props to-date, as far as I know ...-- Fredmdbud 06:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, numerous times. Where, pray tell, do you think I got the above list? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 15:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

So any idea about the enlisted ranks that are missing but have been mentioned in dialogue (most notably "petty officer second class"). "Specialist" has been mentioned numerous times and is on the list, but PO2 is not on it. If that can't be resolved, it's not really much better than what we have now. -- Serenity 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I realize that Stevenson's model is just as much speculation as ours but I thought it might be helpful to coordinate with him so we can get a consistent image for the new rank insignia's we know know as well as give proposals for ranks that are now known to exist but for which ranks haven't been developed. Right now the Lt. Col. image sticks out because it doesn't show the fringes colors like all the officers I have a version from his sheet that shows it only with white fringe, (at the time it had only been seen worn by Dualla). Also I think now that we know the the insignia for Apprentice/Private First Class, its easy to conclude that their is indeed an insignia for recruit/private because without one, the trend from Apprentice/PFC to Specialist/Corporal to PO2/Sergeant doesn't make sense.

While I'm at it I'd like to propose a new tentative ranks structure based on what new information we now have. Of course this is subject to change when Joe gets more info but I want to run what I've got by all of you and see if I'm missing something or have something confused.

• Flag Officer
  • Admiral
  • Rear Admiral
• Senior Commissioned Officer
  • Commander
  • Colonel
  • Lieutenant Colonel
• Junior Commissioned Officer
  • Major
  • Captain
  • Senior Lieutenant
  • Junior Lieutenant
  • Ensign
• Senior Enlisted (Non-Commissioned Officer)
  • Master Chief Petty Officer/Sergeant-Major
  • Senior Chief Petty Officer/Master Sergeant
  • Chief Petty Officer/Gunnery Sergeant
  • Petty Officer First Class/Sergeant First Class
  • Petty Officer Second Class/Sergeant
• Junior Enlisted
  • Specialist/Corporal
  • Apprentice/Private First Class
  • Recruit/Private

Also, I want to clarify two things with Joe: First, it appears from something you wrote above that you believe Tyrol was a Senior Chief Petty Officer instead of just plain Chief. Is that true? Second, are there supposed to be separate rank insignia for warrant officers or are they supposed to be simply identified by their uniform color.

Finally I'm kinda wondering if there are multiple grades of warrant officer like their are in the U.S. military.

Grandmaester314 16:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I need to make something a bit clear here. Firstly, the costuming / props department has not made a new rank for every single specialist (whether that be SP1, SP2, SP3). Figurski wears the same pins that Cally does, for instance. Also, with regard to the Lt. Col. pins, one of the judges (the African one) from "Crossroads" wears these pins on his own uniform, though is not part of the Col. Military. So... when it comes to the accouterments of b.g. officers, they're not really anal about it. And speaking of the Lt. Col pins, there's at least one or two offers in the blue BDUs that wear them, simply because they're not enough pins to go around. (Or not enough on the truck, or whatever.)

As for Tyrol, since there are other petty officers aboard (i.e. Basim and Peter Laird), it would make the most sense. In any event, he wears the pins.

For the ranking system itself... it wasn't meant to be overly analyzed like what we're doing. As RDM indicated, it is derived from TOS—which I personally believe to be a serious mistake—so it was already FUBARed from the start. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 17:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a nitpick and tidbit to chew on, take it for what it's worth ... there is no such thing as Sergeant First Class in the Marine Corps. If you're aiming to align with PO1, that would be Staff Sergeant (SSG). The only sergeant ranks I can recall from dialogue in the episodes (not including credits, to which I never really paid attention) are the generic "sergeant" and "gunny", so conceivable room to justify SFC rather than SSG (which is an army equivalent of gunny & CPO). Such are the hazards of trying to maintain something resembling "canon" with a combination of speculation, extrapolation, and a writing staff that introduces contradictions and revisions, not to mentioning costuming (lol for effect) ...-- Fredmdbud 21:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, my use of the word "canon" gave me spine shivers, I hope things don't devolve into something "Richard Arnold"-esque (a Star Trek fandom spectactle/controversy/train-wreck, for those not familiar with the name ...)!-- Fredmdbud 22:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

References

The references currently aren't showing up. I've checked the page in K-Meleon and IE6. -- Gordon Ecker 07:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I tried it in IE7 and it doesn't work when I'm logged out. Logging in will display the references. -- Serenity 14:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Frak. I'll try to fix that tonight. I think we may just need to update the extension... -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 16:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent Updates

As the freeze period has expired I decided to make some updates which I thought seemed appropriate. In the interest of avoiding another edit war I'd like to elaborate a little on those changes which I think are most likely to be controversial.

• I have once again removed the rank of Vice Admiral, I know this has been a sore point between me and some others but with lieutenant colonel, their are now ten confirmed officer ranks which already is starting to make the rank structure pretty top heavy especially given that in the U.S. Military there are usually ten officer ranks and nine enlisted ranks. Currently we have ten confirmed officer ranks and only seven confirmed enlisted ranks (eight if you include senior chief petty officer which hasn't been proven). I think it highly unlikely that there would be such a discrepency in the number of ranks between the two corps (officers v. enlisted). I have left senior chief petty officer because I think it is at least possible that such a rank may exist, although I am by no means sold on it..
• As for the Marine Ranks: The ranks of private, private first class, and sergeant major have already been established both as ranks and as to their position in the rank structure. In addition, the ranks of Corporal, Sergeant and Gunnery Sergeant have been established as existing but their place in the structure hasn't been definitively established. To fill out the gap between sergeant and gunnery sergeant (as well as to confirm the places of the other ranks that are as of yet unconfirmed as to position, I have relied on Joe's post indicating a partial rank listing. In that posting he mentions both sergeant and sergeant first class as distinct ranks and also notes that sergeant first class shares the same insignia as petty officer first class. If we assume that this information is correct we then have enough information to definitively name and place all the marine enlisted ranks. That is how I have derived the current structure.
• I also have removed marine "lieutenant" Terry Burrell from the officer example list since, as was already indicated on the page in a footnote, his place in the rank structure is not definitively known.
• As noted in the footnotes, the reason for my changing the rank of deckhand also is derived from Joe's post. It's also partly inspired by my own personal belief that deckhand doesn't really sound like a rank. However as their is generally hostility to changes based only on personal inclinations (and perhaps rightly so), I have only changed it now based on the new information provided by Joe.

I also have a couple questions:

• How is that some you are able to include brief comments in your history logs?
• How does one upload pictures? I have a better version (though still not consistent with the others for the crewman/private first class insignia but I don't know how to post it.

Grandmaester314 17:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the serious mistake here is the mistake we made in earlier versions of this article. That mistake was to try to mirror or associate Colonial Military ranks to US (and other real-world) military ranks; obviously, since the Original Series rank structure was FUBARed to begin with, there could be no clear real-life association to be made. So, yes, it may be top heavy... but we're here to report, not to make up facts or fanwank to explain things, which is what I'm starting to see here a bit, particularly with the brevet ranking notes.

Regarding your questions, the "summary" line in the editing form is where we note the brief comments in the history logs. To upload files, you need to go to the Media Repository to upload your files. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate - Battlestar Pegasus} 00:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the deckhand thing makes sense. That always seemed a weird choice for a rank, as it also refers to mechanics and the like in general. As for Dualla's rank in LDYB. The simplest thing is to leave it at lieutenant and consider it a costuming mishap. It's the first time she appeared in an officer's uniform, which may explain it. The explanation about a brevet promotion may appear logical, but from what I can tell, the writers don't put that much thought into such trivial details. Every comment about Lee Adama, for example, makes it sound like they consider it to be a normal promotion. And his demotion to major is actually referred to explicitly in a deleted scene in "Collaborators", even if it's a bit jokingly. -- Serenity 14:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Updated Rank Chart based off of format established by Jim Stevenson

I'm sure all of you by now has seen the rank guide created by Jim Stevenson, in fact I'm pretty sure that's where almost all of the rank device images on the page come from. Anyway it's been a year and a half since he last updated it and there have been several major updates, so I went ahead and updated it might self. Would there be a problem with me posting it, and if so would people have a problem with me posting it in lieu of the current chart?

Grandmaester314 21:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You should definitely ask him if he's ok with you updating and reworking it. He hasn't worked on it for some time, but it's still his design. This page credits him, but I also asked if I could cut the chart up like this. And actually creating a new version is another thing entirely. He might be fine with it, but you should ask.

As for the change I made to your recent edits. That wasn't about the content, so much as the style. We already have an entire page of footnotes and such extensive notes aren't good to read IMO. Yeah, I've seen legal documents with one page for one footnote, but that doesn't mean it's such a good idea. Most of it is necessary here, but the stuff you added was very self-argumentative and could be shortened a lot. Basically it says that it's unclear why the decision was made, that there may be one or two in-universe reasons, but that there are also real-world reasons like an error or production realities. That's perfectly fine, but it's possible to say that in one or two sentences without adding five footnotes, that were frankly hard to read the way they were worded and structured. It took me a while to get what the actual argument was, and then I realized that a lot of it didn't really add to the point made, but just hid it behind verbosity. -- Serenity 17:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

With the upcoming auction of BSG props, wouldn't now be an opportune time to replace the rank illustrations with images of actual production insignia? It would also be interesting to see the insignia used on the tan warrant officer uniforms - even if there is an inconsistency, it's something footnotable and worthy of interest.-- Fredmdbud 08:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Re-imagined Series definition: Battlestar Group ^{(TRS: "Water")}. It also doubles as an acronym for the television series itself.