Talk:Torn/Archive2

Summary Split?

We've taken to splitting the episode summaries between the Fleet and Baltar. Am I alone in thinking this isn't the best method? I'd prefer the summary going through the events of the episode chronologically. Especially now that the two storylines are beginning to converge. It was fine in Collaborators, where the two threads didn't effect each other. But now, someone reading the summary encounters a mention of the dead basestar at the end of the Galactica summary before getting to any of the details in the Cylon summary. -- Alpha5099 00:00, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Personally I think it's fine. It depends on how much interaction there is between the two story lines in the next episode. If they signicantly interact, then this summary may require change, but for now I think it's ok.--Cohnee 06:14, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Actually, we've been describing each story line separately since "33". It really makes the story lines easier to keep track of for both the viewer and the editors. However, if there's a better way, I would be interested in a discussion of it. What method or methods would you suggest? -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 08:18, 8 November 2006 (CST)

I think it's a fine format in most cases. It certainly worked for Collaborators, and it worked well for the Helo arc of Season One. However, in those instances, the main plot and the sides-story didn't interact, so knowing how the Galactica side of the episode pans out before you read what happened to Helo, it isn't a problem. But here we have the Galactica storyline ending with something that was explained in the Cylon storyline. I guess I'm just concerned that some reading it without having seen the episode would be very confused. Something as simple as putting the Cylon half of the summary first I think would clear up any potential confusion, especially considering that nothing in the Galactica story effects the Cylon story. -- Alpha5099 11:56, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Promotional pictures

Look at these pictures:
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kthzq/g248
http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kw117/g248
Where do they come from? I don't remember such scene in "Torn"... -- Spike 01:51, 8 November 2006 (CST)

P.s. All promo images are also on the wiki. As for those images, when I was uploading new promo images tonight, I noticed those, and I was like... "I never saw them.". if they show up in another episode, I will recategorize them in the media wiki. Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 01:53, 8 November 2006 (CST)

They may have come from a deleted scene as well. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 08:07, 8 November 2006 (CST)

They might have been moved to the next episode "A Measure of Salvation" --Serenity 08:13, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Can anyone identify the patch on Baltar's flight suit? It looks like it has a picture of an old style Raider on it. http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000ksya5/g248 -- Alpha5099 11:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)

That's the standard Raptor patch. That's the Raptor squadron that Sharon belongs to. We maybe ought to crop some of the patches off uniforms and have a patches and insignias section of the uniforms page. --Steelviper 12:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Hmm. Odd I never noticed that before. Seen like something I would've seen before. I thought maybe it was squandron, like Primus or The Vigilantes. An article on patches would be interesting. -- Alpha5099 12:24, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Oh, no. I think you're right. I think that's exactly what it is. I was just saying that was a "normal" squadron patch for a Raptor (as in we've seen it before). If you would be willing to wade through the promo photos and screencaps (some here as well) to identify pictures with good patch shots in them, I'd be willing to crop down to the patches and upload them and help start either a new section on Uniforms (RDM) or a subarticle of that page. --Steelviper 12:37, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Questions?

I have no idea how to phrase it or if i remember correctly, but didn't Sharon (athena) start talking incoherently when they jump to the Lions Head? Is she infected? We don't see them jump back... Puneypunk 06:26, 8 November 2006 (CST)

No. She wasn't infected. She was shocked at what she saw and quoted scripture. She said "When god's anger awakens, even the mighty shall fall" --Serenity 08:10, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Helo as XO

Surely if he was the XO, Adama would of promoted him to at least Major, if not Colonel, by now? I'm not disputing that Helo is acting as Adama's "eyes and ears" but I'm surpirsed that he is being described as XO.--Cohnee 06:39, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Rank isn't everything. An officer can also "outrank" someone with a nominally higher rank just by position. Adama probably still plans for Tigh to return some day and has Helo as interim solution. --Serenity 08:09, 8 November 2006 (CST)

It's quite possible that Helo hasn't been promoted because he hasn't met the minimum time-in-grade for a full Lieutenant yet. Kat's quick rise from Ensign to Lieutenant seems to contradict this, however. --Slander 11:06, 8 November 2006 (CST)

To me, his job seems to be something of a cross between Gaeta's former position and Tigh's. It may be that he fell into his current roll while Galactica was understaffed and it has yet to be formalised or revised back to a more standard one. We have seen that the crew is still readjusting to some extent and I wouldn't be surprised if there are still some adjustments yet to be made. --Ryan H 12:35, 8 November 2006 (CST)

I don't think minimum time in-grade is all that important anymore, all things considered. I also think that Helo and Kat are both excellent candidates for Captain, if they aren't already. Kat and Starbuck could be squadron leaders, Apollo could be CAG, and Helo could be Gaeta, since Gaeta is the new Baltar. Philwelch 00:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Origin of the virus

Far too speculative to put on the main page, but could the virus have been planted by the other 5 models? Perhaps a split occurred within the Cylons soon after they took human form, and the other 5 have decided to strike at the ones that we know. If indeed the virus is a hybrid biological / technological nature as surmised in the Questions, it would support the theory of other Cylons having created it. --Zeratul 13:29, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Well, if it was placed by the other 5, then it may be logical to asume that the other 5 went off in search of and, possibly, found earth, leaving this "viral pod" behind to ward off the 7. Unfortunately its all wild speculation at this point. --Vladimir 13:34, 8 November 2006 (CST)

If the virus was placed at the Lion's Head by Eathlings to dissuade potential Earth-seekers, it was either placed when they left Kobol a long time ago, or sometime more recently. If they placed it when they left Kobol, that would suggest that it was either an accident that it affected the Cylons negatively, or that they could somehow forsee that the Cylons would be looking for them. Otherwise, it could have been placed more recently by Earthlings (either of Cylon or human extraction), meaning the inhabitants of Earth are aware that Cylons are looking for them, and they don't want the Cylons to find them. --Yaneh 18:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Moreover, does this mean that at every one of the 12 constellations, there will be a new anti-Cylon trap? The Cylons won't fall for the virus again, clearly, so the Earthlings, either of the past or currently, would have to have created 12 different deterrents against the Cylons, which should make for some exciting puzzle-solving television. --Yaneh 18:16, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Erm, no. You are misunderstanding the whole thing about the constellations. The Twelve Colonies don't lie in them or something. They are just random stars seen in apparent groups from Earth, but in reality they are far apart. There is no such thing as "at the constellations".

Aside from that I don't really see the point in speculating that the beacon is somehow from Earth. That just creates far too many logic problems. --Serenity 17:27, 10 November 2006 (CST)

I see what you are saying, and I thought that too. But then it doesn't make sense that on Baltar's advice, the basestar (that is now infected) jumped to a particular point to check out the Lion's Head, and just by pure coincidence the virus probe was floating right around that location. Moreover, when the humans decided to jump to check out the Lion's Head, they jumped right next to where the basestar had jumped. For some strange reason, both the humans and the Cylons picked the same point in 3 dimensions around the Lion's Head for their jump destination. I agree, it doesn't make sense. But that's how the show is going. Plus, Baltar said the beacon was "human-made." If it's not from the Earthlings, who could have put it there? --Yaneh 21:24, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Still a gigantic leap in logic. One doesn't follow from the other. Now you're talking about a different kind of "no sense". Yeah, it's a huge coincidence and was done for dramatic effect. But you can't conclude any greater design from that, or that the beacon came from Earth. If I had to explain it away, I'd say that both jump plots favored this point for astrometric reasons. Sort of like a LaGrange point, where there are the least influences from gravity and the like.

Who made the beacon? Probably the 13th tribe, on their way to Earth. The Cylons think that too, since it makes the most sense. They went along that route, Pythia recorded the journey in what later became the Sacred Scrolls (or part of her records went there). Then some time later a group went back and build the planetarium on Kobol and somehow the Scrolls came into the posession of what later came to be the Colonials (that's a bit weird too, but maybe the returness followed the other tribes). --Serenity 05:00, 11 November 2006 (CST)

5 models (spoilers)

On the listed on Season 3 on the front page, one of the articles contained an interview with Moore.

Spoiler follows, highlight to read.
He mentioned that the other 5 models of Cylons is a secret. They are currently "boxed" and not in use, plus the 7 other cylon models do not know what the other 5 models look like.

The reasons for this is unclear, but that is the info that Moore was willing to reveal during the interview. --LifeStar 13:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)

That's correct, but the answers to questions are generally supposed to be based on aired info. Until that information is shown on the air it's generally a spoiler (and is wrapped in spoiltext like I did above). That's actually something I wasn't aware of, so you just "spoiled" me. --Steelviper 13:59, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Ooh, thanks for that, that confirms my theory on how both the Tricia/Grace/Dean spoilers and the Aaron/Tahmoh spoilers were both right at the same time. I'm glad it was this :) --Sauron18 23:05, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Btw, do you have a link to this interview? It's possible to put the link (Spoiler covered) in the "questions" Section regarding this topic. --Sauron18 23:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)

I would like to see this interview as well. I read the Aaron/Tahmoh interview and it seemed they were just speculating about the boxed thing. They're not Cylons, so how would they know? Tricia, Grace, and the other Cylons were the only actors privvy to "Life Aboard the Base Ship", Ron Moore's Cylon bible. Philwelch 00:21, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Apparently there's a link on the Season 3 page. I generally try to avoid spoilers, so that's the best I've got. --Steelviper 08:48, 9 November 2006 (CST)

My bad guys, I think I combined the spoilers from Tricia/Grace/Dean and Aarom/Tahmoh into one during my recollections. The interview I was referring to was the one done by Entertainment Weekly, in which they reveal a lot of the plot in the 2 hour pilot. I think I must have confused the actors' discussion and speculations into the spoilers that Moore revealed. Sorry, guess we're just gonna have to wait and learn about the 5 models the hard way. --LifeStar 13:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Hybrid's looks

The hybrid's visual look was inspired by the precogs in Minority Report. Is that official (ie: mentioned by someone who works on the episode) or a guess? I mean, I can think of a few other things that could've been the inspiration for the Hybrid's look - the pods the humans are placed in by the machines in The Matrix for example. --Ghilz 22:52, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Barring an official source, this should be removed or reworded accordingly. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 22:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)

It was mentioned in podcast, which this time starred Ron and an entire Cornell University class, sans cigarettes and Scotch. Philwelch 00:22, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Yeah, I got it from the podcast. I should have mentioned that, but it was very late... --Serenity 01:11, 9 November 2006 (CST)

The Ship Who...

I thought this series was worth noting here, since it seems to predate any other notions of similar man/machine integration that I've found. (It's certainly more relevant than a PC game.) We all know what a fan Ron Moore is of classic science fiction and I'm sure he's got a few of these on his shelves. --Slander 11:20, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Something from the 60s is good. It might be even older, but it's important to point out that the source of the concept lies in "classic" SciFi books and not modern television. What I really hated was a lengthy paragraph about the Shadow vessels in "Babylon 5". I know that lots of B5 fans think that JMS invented lots of SciFi concepts and that all other shows just ripped it off, but it really gave the impression that B5 was somehow source material for the Hybrid, when in fact the shows' writers draw on the same - even older - sources. --Serenity 11:36, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Concur with Serenity. Man/machine integration is nothing new. Here, we're technically not even talking of a "man" or even a human, but just a biologic computer. --Spencerian 11:53, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Viral vs Biological

In the podcast for Torn RDM says:

"The baseship gets there and it, lo and behold, it finds a device. A floating beacon left behind by the Thirteenth Tribe. Those Cylons pull that beacon onto their ship and an infection spreads through the Cylon baseship. Just something that was physically on the beacon, some bacteria or something that survived. And it proved deadly to everybody on the Cylon baseship."

That seems to answer the questions about its nature (biological) and about who left it. I didn't want to yank the question right away (nor resort to the forum Q&A format), but I thought those questions might best be moved down to analysis with this as the answer (with a podcast cite). --Steelviper 12:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)

I don't really see what the confusing is about anyways. People hear the Cylons speculating that it might spread to the Resurruction Ship and immediately think that speculation is fact.

A more valid oberservation is that Raiders and Centurions were incapitated too without a direct vector of attack. But that can very easily be explained by their link to the Hybrid and that they got screwed up when the Hybrid died. I think RDM mentions that Hybrid link too in the podcast. And upon some further thinking, there is a vector with the Raiders, since they are stored on the baseship between deployments --Serenity 13:25, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Who is vulnerable to the Virus?

First, do we actually know that it only affect Cylons? No human has been exposed to any sort of contact, assuming the Baltar was in an airtight suit. Presumably, if the virus were released on all ships in the Fleet, any hidden Cylon agents would keel over dead. Putting aside the question of wiping out the Cylon race, killing all Cylon agents hidden in the Fleet seems like a good idea, except of course for Athena. Would President Roslin be affected by the Virus, because of her transfusion from Hera? Would Hera be affected? --PhoenixDreams 15:40, 10 November 2006 (CST)

I'd say that both humans and Cylons are vulnerable in theory. Teasers for the next episode show a Marine team going to the basestar without any protection. Either they are vulnerable or just very careless. Or more likely, they don't know what happened and don't consider a possible infection with some disease. But it remains to be seen if they'll be infected --Serenity 15:43, 10 November 2006 (CST)

I'd also like to echo Serenity's sentiments. Also, much of the Cylons reaction to the virus is more out of fear and ignorance mixed with some common sense. For instance, it makes absolutely no logical sense that a biological virus or bacetria could be transmitted from a body into the resurrection ship, since the download process is technological in nature. (Therefore, the illness or physical sickness itself would not be transferred, merely the memory of having it.) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 15:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)

In addition, Baltar was in a flight suit, which is air tight. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 15:57, 10 November 2006 (CST)

As you said they act of fear. They don't know what they are dealing with and speculate that it might be transmitted with downloading (someone even says "could"). But they take precautions and keep the Resurrection Ship out of range. That doesn't mean that we should think that it can in fact be transmitted that way. --Serenity 16:05, 10 November 2006 (CST)