Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

• Archive 1:

Specialist Cally, Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial, How Many Admirals, Insignia, Tyrol & Hadrian, "Gunny", Second Chart, Back to Officer Ranks..., Piping, Colorization

Abbreviations

Here is the list of abbreviations I wrote for the ranks here. The enlisted ranks for Marines are still a little rough though, the "all caps" ranks are in the US Army style, others use lower case, eg Master Sergeant: MSG, MSgt.

Officer
O-11 Fleet Admiral No abbrev., FAdm could work
O-10 Admiral Adm
O-9 Vice Admiral VAdm
O-8 Rear Admiral RAdm
O-7 Commander Cdr
O-6 Colonel Col
O-5 Major Maj
O-4 Captain Capt
O-3 Lieutenant Lt
O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade LtJG
O-1 Ensign Ens

Enlisted
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer MCPO
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer SCPO
E-7 Chief Petty Officer CPO
E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class PO1
E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class PO2
E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class PO3
E-3 Crewman CN (based on US Navy Seaman SN)
E-2 Crewman Apprentice CA ("")
E-1 Crewman Recruit CR ("")

Marine
E-9 Sergeant Major SGM
E-8 Senior Master Sergeant/Master Sergeant SMSgt/MSG
E-7 Master Sergeant/Sergeant 1st Class MSG/SFC
E-6 Staff Sergeant SSG
E-5 Sergeant SGT
E-4 Corporal CPL
E-3 Private 1st Class PFC
E-2 Private 2nd Class PV2
E-1 Private Recruit PVR
--Talos 22:33, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I went ahead and formatted your post, Talos, so that it was easier to read. I don't think I broke anything, did I? Anyway, I think the all-caps ranks look loud. I know that's kind of an artifact of the internet, but still... I'd rather just cap the first letter of a word from an abbreviation. Thus "PFC" is fine because each of those are the first letter of a word. On the other hand, I'd rather "Sgt." than "SGT". Also, "Cpt." and "Cmdr." are more intuitive to me, but I don't know if I made those up or where they came from. --Day 03:03, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

Thanks for the formatting, that's how it was whem I typed it in notepad. I see how that works now. Like I said, the reason they are all caps is that it is based on the Army enlisted structure. I didn't go with the Marine Corps structure because it's missing the two ranks unique to the MC, Lance Corporal and Gunnery Sergeant. Here is a link about the US Military ranks: [1]. There is a link on top to the enlisted ranks. What is interesting is the way the US Navy O-6 rank's head is turned compared to the others. Also, Capt and Cdr are how the USN abbreviates Captain and Commander. --Talos 07:00, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I wanted to add something else, the CAPS are only used in forms, charts, etc. When written with the name it is normal case, so Hadrian,... Rank: SGT, but ...Sgt. Hadrian. I can't believe I forgot this. I must be slipping. --Talos 14:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

Rank Pins

The admiral pin as pictured on this picture is wrong. If you look at the super-duper-high-res promo shots, there's one of Adama. His pin has two extra bars on the left side (towards the shoulder) and none towards the right. Perhaps the number of side bars denotes admiral grades. Maybe we should utilize those shots to have actual rank pics... --Steelviper 10:38, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

You should get permission to use "137th Gebirg"s rank chart. It's much better and more accurate: img503.imageshack.us/img503/8991/bsgranksnewv4et0.png

The pins could also be cut out of that pic and used individually

As for different Admiral ranks. In the extended Pegasus cut Adama refers to Cain as "Rear Admiral". At least he said that "she made Rear Admiral very quick" or something. But I guess that's her - and later his - rank at the point of the episode too. --Serenity 10:51, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

What is werid is that the photos we have show a red color not a white for Admiral. Who's right? I go with the show anyday. --Shane ^{(T - C - E)} 10:56, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

You mean the trim of the uniform? A regulation Admiral's uniform like Cain's is white/gold. They didn't update Adama's unform, but I think it makes perfect sense to assume that they don't just happen to have spare Admiral's uniforms lying around. At least not in Adama's size.

Btw, I think you can't see the other side of the pin because of the angle. When they were presented to him in the case they were symmetrical --Serenity 11:01, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Aaah. Gotcha. Think you're right on that. Perspective... very tricky. Good eye, Serenity. Oh, and there's stuff about the piping on the Uniforms (RDM) page (though if THAT'S wrong, we should change it too). --Steelviper 11:09, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

With what we've seen on the show, the piping info on the uniform page is correct. I also think we should ask Gebirg to use his rank images, t2hey are dead on. --Talos 11:15, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

The uniform page is right. People just get confused because Adama is still wearing his commander uniform, while Lee got a new one. Look at pics of Adm. Cain and you'll see that hers is white/gold. Noticable when she steps off the Raptor for example. This rank chart is as accurate as it gets considering all available information --Serenity 11:17, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

I'm leery of using this rank/pin chart, because the creator admits to using unofficial fan-made props and insignia, so we don't know how much "fanon" is actually on that chart... -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 11:46, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

The conjectural designs are marked as such, and you don't have to use them if you cut it into smaller pieces. The rest is depicted as seen on screen from everything I can tell, and I've been paying attention to that lately --Serenity 11:51, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

With regards to Adama's rank pin, I'm inclined to agree with the notion that the "bars" on the side of the "Admiral" pins denote the level of Admiralty. Adama's has three distinct bars, clearly visible during his conversation with Tigh about half an hour into "Sacrifice". If that was the case, it'd be:

• 1 bar - Rear Admiral (lower half)
• 2 bars - Rear Admiral (upper half)
• 3 bars - Vice Admiral
• 4 bars - Admiral
• 5 bars - Fleet Admiral

So that would make Adama a Vice Admiral? Thoughts? --Madbrood 13:06, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Maybe. They could also add additional stuff on the gold plate. Like some additional silver. Anyways, I think he's a Rear Admiral:

1.) see the rank chart: two gold bars
2.) in the Extended Cut of "Pegasus" Adama says about Cain "she made Rear Admiral very fast". While he could just have meant her first flag rank, that could also refer to her current rank. And they have indentical insignia. Interpretation here is highly subjective I guess.
3.) Galactica's Dradis shows 2 stars next to Pegasus which some believe means a 2-star admiral. But I can't find the picture atm. Todays "two stars" could be the same as the two bars on the pins --Serenity 13:24, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Well, I just went to the Season 3 promo pics and Adama's insignia does show what looks like three bent vertical bars on each side. This is a pic of the pin. Adama Rank Pin

This could prove interesting if Cain was a two star Admiral like the Dradis screenshot implies, since Roslin would have promoted Adama above Cain. I'm looking for that Dradis pic right now. --Talos 13:39, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

I think what you see as the inner bar there is just the silver plate behind the diamond that's actually above the gold plate with two bars. In-universe wise I think they only made one insignia and gave Adama the same one as Cain. I still wonder why Billy went to jeweler instead of just giving him Cain's pins. Or maybe he lied because that would have been somewhat morbid ;) --Serenity 13:45, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

If Roslin did promote Adama to Vice Admiral, that would explain why they had to go to a jeweler- using Cain's Rear Admirla pins as a reference to get a set of Vice Admiral pins made? Besides, in "Sacrifice", and the above pic of Adama's pin, the "bars" look to be seperated by distinct colour, as opposed to the first part being a silver plate? --Madbrood 14:04, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

For me it looks like the bars are seperated by small indentations, which would create darker shadows in bad lighting. I also think Adama's and Cain's insignia look the same. But if you have any clear pics to the contrary... --Serenity 14:15, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Okay, just went over the final scene of Res Ship pt II, where Roslin gives Adama his new rank pins, and they do indeed appear to have a silver plate, with a larger gold plate behind it. So, Serenity, it would appear that I'm wrong and you're right, as a gold plate with two "bars" separated by a small indentation- along with the smaller silver plate- would give the appearance of three distinct "bars" under certain lighting. I can't get screenshots at the moment, but will post some later tonight if anyone wants confirmation- but I move that Adama's rank be clarified as Rear Admiral, upper. --Madbrood 07:08, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Ok, I'll go ahead and do the change and also give some reasons for the definition (2 bars = 2 stars on Dradis, comment in Extended Pegasus cut, Adama and Cain with same insignia.)
Could you have a look at my rank pin proposal below? --Serenity 07:18, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Bingo, found the dradis pic. Hmm, if there are only two bars, and two stars on the screen.... --Talos 13:47, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Galactica/Pegasus Dradis screens.

Well...today a two-star Admiral is a Rear Admiral UH. That would also fit with Adama's "Rear Admiral" comment (see point 2). Maybe wait for some other opinions before editing anything --Serenity 14:00, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/steel_viper/BSG/promopin.jpg

I know the angle on this shot is funky (and I keep going back to it because it's so high-res), but I agree that the "third" vertical bar appears to actually be the silver part of the Commander insignia, with the outer two being the actual "gold" bars (presumably distinguishing the degree of "admiralness"). --Steelviper 08:04, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

The silver plate is already there on the Commander pin. Basically the Admiral insignia are Commander pins on a gold plate of variable size. I don' t know if having 4 or 5 bars on each side is practical though. So maybe there is some additional bling for the highest Admirals --Serenity 08:09, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

As detailed below something needs to be done about the rank pins depicted. They are completely wrong. To be honest, I don't see how someone can object to conjectural designs, given that the ones used now are also conjectural and even the ones shown on TV are sometimes entirely wrong (see below).
Another possibility would be to make some screencaptures from the show. I could point you towards some good scenes to get caps of Admiral or Major for example. But that's probably more work for a worse result than using such artwork.
If there is really such concern about conjectural designs, we can only use the ones clearly established on the show, by cutting "137th Gebirg"'s chart apart. I did so with one pin to demonstrate what I mean and uploaded it to my own webspace for now: Captain's inignia. Before including them in the main article I'd ask for his permission of course
Opinions?

Errors in rank pins:

• Admiral has two gold "bars" with a silver plate between that and the diamond
• Commander's silver plate is not just on the top half
• Colonel doesn't have any trimming on the diamond's upper half
• Major actually looks like the Captain pin depicted here
• Captain only has two chevrons
• The PO insignia is "PO 1st class" (seen on Sgt. Hadrian). "PO 2nd class" is missing completely
• The thingy inside the diamond of "specialist" is far larger

--Serenity 06:06, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

I agree with you Serenity- that rank chart, cut apart as per your example, is probably the best way forward. They seem to be the most accurate example of the rank pins we've found without taking screengrabs (which, you've noted, isn't really the best way to go about it- I'll refer you all to our recent discussion regarding Adama's Admiral pins :P ) The remind me a lot of Steve Marriot's Star Trek rank graphics (Tango Fleet pbem).

Hell, if "137th Gebirg" agrees (and no-one has any major objections to using conjectural designs), we could even ask him to throw together some pics for the other Admiralty ranks? And could this be a good basis for a BW:OC question? "Is Adama a Rear-Admiral?" or something? --Madbrood 11:02, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Good news everyone! I got his permission and already updated the page. This is only a first draft. I'll do some more cosmetic formatting, explinations and of course the crediting.

I might also upload new pictures because some of the cutouts are off by a few pixels.

Unfortunately I broke the table in the process. It's shown at the bottom and not under "insignia" /o\

Plzfix! :) I'm no expert with tables. --Serenity 11:10, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Awesome! Looks sharp! --Steelviper 11:14, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Pics with bright lines at the bottom have been replaced. Looks a bit better now.
I tried centering the ranks on the pictures but that didn't work despite using "align=center" on both. Maybe someone who's better at tables wants to try, but it's not really important --Serenity 12:51, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

General update of the page

When we have come to a consensus about Adama's rank, the page need to be updated. Right now it lists Adama as Commander.
Footnote 2 could be replaced with Adama's "Rear Admiral" comment. While he didn't state her current rank with 100% certainty it's an indication. Or do an additional footnote about it.
Footnote 3 which now gives some arguments about his Commander rank could then include reasons for fixing his Admiral rank at "Rear Admiral" or "Vice Admiral" --Serenity 14:10, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

And I've come to realize, that it needs huge overhaul:
1.) Not only Adama's rank needs to be updated, but also Lee's. Dualla as well I guess. She's now an LT
2.) Is it really necessary to have a comparison with Air Force and Marines too? IMO modern Navy is enough. The Marines don't play a huge role on the show
3.) The enlisted ranks are wrong. They go Recruit -> Deckand -> Specialist. No "apprentice" there
4.) Prosna is listed as "specialist" on his site, but here as "apprentice/deckhand". I think specialist is correct
5.) The rank chart doesn't even list "Petty Officer, 2nd class" despite it being displayed prominently with Dualla

All in all, the article is almost more about equating BSG ranks with real life US military ranks than documenting the ranks within the BSG universe. Some of that can be retained, but maybe it should be dialed back a bit.

For now I cleaned up the rank comparisons and updated and changed some example ranks. I left out Admiral Adama's rank as per ongoing discussion above --Serenity 18:20, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Any time you list ranks of living characters you put yourself at risk of having obsolete information. Since there is still a lot of potential for ranks to shift around a lot, perhaps we could try to target dead or unused characters for the examples. Or, perhaps as an alternative there could be some sort of reminder on the pages of all characters used as examples here that they are on this page, so that when their rank is updated on their character article the editor can be reminded to propagate the change to this page as well. --Steelviper 07:50, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Yeah, I'm aware of that and I'll change the page if and when new promotions come. I still left Dualla as PO2, but indicated that this it was her rank in season 1 and 2, since she's the only example of that rank. I put Adama at Rear Admiral now and gave the reasons for it. That was a bit harder since it' s debatable. Though there were errors in it that were apparent in season 1 already. Like listing Sharon as full LT.
But the character examples are really the least problem of the article, even if a focused a lot on it here. The rank pin pictures need to be updated. Look a bit further above

Btw, shouldn't the older entries here be archived? The page is getting rather long (>32kb) and bloated --Serenity 08:04, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Sounds like you're on it. The rear admiral (with justification) sounds good. I think it was noteworthy enough that she made that rank at her young age. To have gotten promoted above that would likely have been noteworthy (and noted in further dialogue). As for the rank pics, I think everybody would be happy if you could manage to get gebirg's permission to hack his beautiful work to pieces to be placed into the article. As for the archive... done. --Steelviper 08:21, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Ensign?

All this discussion of rank pins has me looking through all my BSG stuff now... and I noticed something. It doesn't look like Ensign Davis wears any kind of pin on her collar (Hand of God). Anyone think otherwise?

PS: Can anyone help me out with regards to screencapping from DVD's? All I can do at the moment is cap from poor-quality avi/mpeg files :( --Madbrood 11:24, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

For DVD capping I use VLC. It works fine (it kicks out files in png format, I think). My biggest gripe about it is a lack of "frame by frame", since the way that VLC reads the data renders the concept of "frames" meaningless, apparently (or there's some other technical reason why it doesn't do it). Hopefully our screencap gurus might weigh in (Talos, FordSierra, etc). --Steelviper 11:29, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Either she doesn't wear one or it can't be seen from the angle. I don't think the prop departement even made Ensign pins. Some nuggets in "Scar" are called Ensigns but they wear LT pins. A comment by Bradley Thompson in the Official Communiques doesn't list the Ensign rank either. ("the sketches I've seen don't yet carry the ensign rank designator") Interestingly, he lists Lt.Col. and that one doesn't show up in RDM's blog. But that entry is over one year old and shouldn't be considered the absolute authority. Ideas of the writers might have changed now --Serenity 11:39, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Gold Bars

Yes, it's me again :) Just a thought- if the Commander rank is the equivalent to Rear Admiral (lower), and the Admiral ranks have gold bars on them surely the Cdr rank pin should have a single gold bar?

Or, perhaps, Commander is in fact equivalent to Captain? This would move the other ranks down the list, meaning Ensign would be perhaps a probationary rank? --Madbrood 13:26, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Well, yeah. I/we argued that RA is a two-star Admiral, but there isn't really a one-star Admiral. Unless CF also uses that Upper Half/Lower Half nonsense, and Adama went straight to UH.

But I think it's just best to not equate BSG excactly with the US Navy. Those comparisons serve as a rough analogy, but they shouldn't be taken too seriously IMHO --Serenity 14:39, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

I could see Commander being a RALH or Commodore equivalent. Of course, RDM was in the Navy and took a lot of stuff from that (snipes for example) and put it into BSG. --Talos 15:06, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

NROTC, I believe. (He mentions it in one of the podcasts.) --Steelviper 15:20, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

He actually wanted to join the Marines, but the USMC technically belongs to the Navy. See this blog entry --Serenity 15:32, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

That's what I was talking about. Speaking as an current Army ROTC cadet, he was pretty much in the Navy. :) --Talos 15:37, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Well even after my Army ROTC experience (I think I may have left something about that on your talk page), I wouldn't really say I was "in" the Army... but I know what you mean. RDM did spend some time on a frigate (USS W.S. Sims), though it's hard to tell when it's military stuff coming from RDM vs. Bradley & Thompson or the military technical advisor, etc. --Steelviper 15:49, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Or if we stick with Adama and Cain as Rear Admirals (which we should for now), then maybe Commander used to be a one-star rank, but the Colonial military doesn't count it as full flag rank anymore for whatever reason (maybe a restructuring in the command structure of the BSGroups). So their flag officers start with two stars/bars. If there is even anything to the number of bars. That UH/LF business only exists since about 50 years ago. While the BSG rank structure is very similar to today's, I see no reason why there couldn't be slight changes.
I know that Commander is listed as flag rank on the list, but that's really to line it up the with the US Navy ranks and the footnote explains that it could go either way --Serenity 17:06, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Assumptions

• "It is assumed that Nagala's given rank of Admiral (Miniseries) equates to that of Admiral in the US Navy. However, when he took personal command of the Colonial Fleet following the Cylon Attack (Miniseries), it is assumed he adopted the (war time) role of Fleet Admiral." This seems like an arbitrary assumption. Why do we assume this?

• "Helo states his rank as "Lieutenant, Junior Grade" in "33", but he consistantly wears the rank insignia of a full Lieutenant." This seems a little backwards—doesn't spoken dialogue take precedence over our assumptions of how the insignia work?

Philwelch 19:06, 18 September 2006 (CDT)