Talk:Sherman Cottle/Archive 1

Am I the only one who thinks cottle is a cylon?--Glaucon

I've thought so for a long time, for one big reason: I think it is just preposterous and unbelievable that a Cylon could be medically indistinguishable from a human. They've got light-up spines, and they can transmit/receive data by sticking a cable into their hands! I cannot accept that it would be so difficult to isolate some medical differences, based on that. Cottle has medical technology that's roughly the same as our present-day technology, such as MRIs. He has had access to plenty of Cylon patients, plus Hera. He has had over a year of opportunity to study Athena (if he asked for her consent). If Cottle weren't a Cylon himself, he'd have developed a Cylon-screening test in the first few weeks of this series. There's also the fact that Cottle was conveniently absent when Boomer shot Adama. He's a Cylon, count on it! --Smw 13:09, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Welcome to the wiki, Smw. (You're replying to an older conversation, but I'll jump in.) Cottle is unlikely to be a Cylon, if Three's revelation in her vision of the final five is to be believed. She spoke with the man after he treats injuries of a Number Five in "Exodus, Part I." Her comment when she sees what she believes is another Cylon in her vision doesn't fit; Three apologizes to the image, but she's never personally harmed Cottle, where the dialog suggests that a personal threat was exchanged by the Three to the unknown Cylon. And, most importantly, not even Cavil is as ornery as Cottle is. :) --Spencerian 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

A few points... Cylons are virtually indistinguishable to humans, even on a cellular level. Baltar even proved this. The only difference is how they react to certain classes of radiation–which is why Baltar needed the nuclear warhead. Therefore, Cottle would not have developed a Cylon-screening test a few weeks, or even a few months, into the first exodus. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 16:48, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Joe, then how do you explain the light-up spines, and how do you explain Sharon cutting open her hand, sticking a cable in, and transmitting data through it? These things aren't anatomically possible for a human. And that ought to be as obvious to the characters as it is to the viewers. It's a glaring inconsistency that needs to be explained onscreen, someday. The simplest explanation is this: any physician with an MRI could examine a Cylon's spine and find the lightbulbs (or whatever), but Cottle never looked, because he was intentionally perpetuating the myth that Cylons are medically indistinguishable from humans. --Smw 23:54, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Light bulbs? Not really. Bioluminescence. Also, the spine thing is a flashing arrow of sorts, letting us know that something is simply abnormal with Baltar's mystery woman. It wouldn't surprise me if the cellular structure of Cylons is photo-sensitive either. Also, while I'm not a scientist by any means, what I do know is that cellular testing is very time-intensive and requires sensitive, complex scientific equipment that Galactica likely doesn't carry. Also, Doc Cottle isn't a biologist by any means, but more of a general medical practitioner. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 00:50, 2 February 2007 (CST)

No, he's apparently well known, has been there for years, and seems to (at least) have been old enough to have been in the Cylon War. --The Merovingian 03:25, 26 February 2006 (EST)

I appreciate your response. Particularly since, having glanced at several of the other discussions, you apparently know the subjects far better than I and appear to be somewhat of a scholar. Nevertheless, having now glanced at the page about such speculation, I believe some of the assumptions to be unwarrented or at least weakly supported. The most obvious being apparent age. ( forgive me if I don't give citations, but I am remembering rather than running them down and I believe your familiarity will make it unncessary.) I saw it mentioed at one point that the cyrlon models represent archtypes, a father/wiseman/partiarch (perhaps even shaman/doctor) arhetype would possibly be created old as would a martriarch/etc.etc. ( I am unaware if there is any evidence one way or another that they physically age with time, but supposing arguendo that they do, this maight account for the seeming greater ages of earlier numbered models than that of newer models - though it would also imply that those downloaded at death actually enter "unused" rather than new bodies, six revives in a body just like her's not a younger version of it.) I also don't find the number or years agrument to be compelling as far as I recall the only statement on how the cylons have been around is in given by Six to Balter and implied by Sharon. Six is clearly an unrealiable narrator, both through manipulation and perhaps through knowledge. All we know for sure that she can speak on is her own time since insertion and we cant necessarily trust that she is honest about that. --Glaucon 13:29, 2 March 2006 (CST) Gluacon

A) Number Six was being honest to other Cylons in "Downloaded", B) While Doctor Cottle's PHYSICAL age doesn't really matter--yes, as seen in the upcoming Cavil-model, they can be old--what I mean is that Doctor Cottle has apparently been serving for many years aboard Galactica and other ships and is well-known. Cylons would tend to be people whose past cannot be confirmed. --The Merovingian 13:47, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Thank you again for your response. In Re A: was she speaking of her own tenure on caprica and if so why would that have any implications for the existence of other models and their time lines? Do we assume she is privy to all the informaiton of the cylons ( clearly dangerouse in an infiltrator who is subject to torture.) In re B: clearly my objections to this are bound up in the answer to A.--Glaucon

We don't, but BattlestarWIki has pieced it together that A) Caprica-Six was on Caprica for 2 years, and Galactica-Boomer was on Galactica for 2 years (stated by Adama in The Farm)). We actually think infiltration could have started before then, but "wide-scale" infiltration only started 2 years ago. Regardless, there is very little information that would support Cottle as a Cylon, other than just random accusations. --The Merovingian 14:37, 2 March 2006 (CST)

I agree that there is nothing overt wich is why I ask about disqualifiers. Many of the things I am considering are extrinsic to him, the fact that we "know" there are a number of other cylons in the fleet, that it is likely there is at least one with a high enough level of access to leave notes in adama's quarteres about the number of cylon models, that other than into the command structure itself, the doctors position would be an ideal place for an agent. Brain chip- Batlar is just nuts, has an undetectable chip in his head, or the doctor did not tell him of the positive result. In Flesh and Blood, Conoy displys a great deal of knowledge of Kara's mental state and personal psychology, while this could have been gathered other ways, her medical records and the observation the doctor was able to make of her in the wake of her injury seem more likely candidate that the information even of others like sharon as Kara doesn't seem to really be the "shareing" type. Cottle seems protective of sharon and her child and his reaction to the attempted rape implies that he sees them as more than machines ( this creates an interesting, though by no means fatal, dichotomy between his advocacy of human abortion, I'm pro-choice myself, but one of those Gemonons could argue that he values cylon life over human life). He seems to encourage dissention on issues that, while they may not endanger the fleeet directly, due keep things tense and act as wedges betweeen the government and the people as well as between adama and the president -helping Roslin escape captivity, performing abortions of unclear legality and in such a way as to be caught at it, then pushing asylum when adama tries to sweep it under the rug - in each case aiding or stimulating the conflict and then letting others due the fighting and reap the animosity. He is ideally situated to gather information and to be a low-level provacatur. Wrong, perhaps, but certaily not a random accusation. --Glaucon 20:32, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Still just looking for things were there is no incriminating pattern. --The Merovingian 23:25, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Regarding the note... it always seemed to me that we were meant to believe that Baltar left the note in Adama's quarters, given that he was the only one told (on screen anyway) that there were twelve models. -- Joe Beaudoin 20:41, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Good point, thank you. I didn't think that simply becuase he does not seem inclined to be helpful and I think he would be terrified of being caught leaving it and questioned as to the origin of his knowledge, but it is certainly a possibility. --Glaucon 20:49, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Uniform Picture

Question: Can anyone get screencaps of Dr. Cottle in a Major's Uniform from Downloaded? I don't think Apollo's quick promotion made him change his uniform in Captain's Hand, so I think that here is the first time we see what a Major's uniform actually looks like: But my problem is that it is dark: does the Major's uniform have a white line, or a gold line? I cannot tell. --The Merovingian 03:25, 26 February 2006 (EST)

If Cottle has a different uniform because he's a major, doesn't this mean that Lee did as well during his tenure as Major? -- Joe Beaudoin 07:40, 26 February 2006 (EST)

Cottle might not have a normal Major's uniform. I'm postulating that there might be a special "Medic/Doctor" uniform that he wears. Plus, based on the character himself, he really couldn't give two craps about rank and the trappings thereof. --BklynBruzer 01:18, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

He's actually in a regular uniform a few times. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 01:24, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm still right about Cottle not giving two craps about rank and the trappings thereof! --BklynBruzer 02:13, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Yes, you are. :-) -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 09:08, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Cottle's First Name

According to two websites that are now shut off, Major/Doctor Cottle's name is "George" or "Daniel". Is their any source that can find him a first name?--CoreyDanian 3 October 2006

Try asking Bradley Thompson at BW:OC. --Peter Farago 22:33, 2 October 2006 (CDT)

Hi, Corey. We're honored to have some crew of the show who answers some questions of the show. They may not answer your question because it might reveal something of future episodes. However, past episode data might be revealed. Visit the Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques article to see other questions or post your own. Remember to keep your question brief and succient. --Spencerian 22:41, 2 October 2006 (CDT)

See the article, where Mr. Thompson says that, while Cottle does have a first and middle name, RDM does not want it revealed as yet. --Spencerian 13:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Favorite character

I have not seen any favorite character remarks on any topic. Not that I have sought for one exhaustively. Anyways I thought I'd start one.

The way he handles himself around man of higher rank and 'heroes' is just superb. He is hands down the coolest human in this universe.

--Alcibiades 15:12, 21 December 2006 (CST)

Cottle a Cylon: Revisited, Post-"Final Four" Reveal

We have one Cylon left to meet: one of the "Final Five."

The first type are the numbered, revealed "skinjob" models who've already appeared in the series: Nos. 1 (Cavil), 2 (Leoben), 3 (D'Anna), 4 (Simon), 5 (Doral), 6 (Number Six), and 8 (Athena/Boomer). The second type are what I'll call TAFT-style Cylons¹, a kind of Cylon which doesn't have to match the "can't be a Cylon" guidelines that had existed in the prior three seasons: Cylon possibilities couldn't exist prior to the Cylon War, couldn't have adult children or a verifiable family history. (For example, Col. Tigh has a long, established history amongst humans (i.e., not a fake implanted history) -- we saw flashbacks with a young Tigh interacting with a young Adama long before humanoid Cylons were revealed in the Reimagined BSG Universe (Scattered).) Since this has proven no longer true, you really can't use logic puzzles to narrow down the candidates any longer -- and so you have to instead think about what makes the most in a "meta" sense -- what serves storytelling purposes for the writers?

¹To me, "final four" and "final five" get a little awkward, and, besides, I wanted to coin a phrase to describe the specialized type of humanoid Cylon these last four are -- a model that breaks all previously existing understanding as to what limitations defined Cylon versus human. (TAFT is just Saul Tigh, Samuel Anders, Tory Foster, and Galen Tyrol.)

Based on others' nerdity (and I don't use that as a derogatory term -- geek pride!), we do have a few guidelines we can use, however. First, we can say this: one of the show's writers said, "The fifth (which may change) we've been kicking around [as a Cylon possibility] since about the end of Season One." So anyone introduced after the end of Season One is most likely not a possibility. Second, the shows' creators have confirmed that both Hera and Nicky are half-human, half-Cylon kids; that means that Karl Agathon isn't, and Callandra "Cally" Henderson wasn't, a Cylon. Third, there was an Entertainment Weekly picture in which the show's head, Ron D. Moore, admitted that the Final Cylon wasn't any of the people pictured. Pictured were both Adamas, Roslin, Baltar, and Starbuck, as well as three of the four TAFT Cylons revealed at the end of last season.

The main rationale I'd use is that a fifth Cylon has to have a very large punch to the series. The "skinjob" models led up to the revelation of four of the final five, which at the end of last season had everyone going, "What! The! FUCK?!?!?!?" The revelation of the four will be a similar buildup to the Fifth. (In other words, in terms of shock value, skinjob : final four :: final four : fifth.)

So, who is left? Assume that the Fifth is a somewhat major character -- because if it's Third Specialist Fifth Class Joe Schmoe, the fans would riot. When the above are removed, you're left with Gaeta, Dualla, Zarek, Cottle, Seelix, Racetrack, and Hot Dog. If you bring in the dead as possibilities (never entirely out of the question), then you add to the equation Ellen, Billy, Jammer, Kat, Crashdown, Socinus, Elosha, Adm. Cain, and Kendra Shaw.

Of the dead, I think we can rule out Ellen, because of her appearance in the last episode in Tigh's hallucination (Escape Velocity). Dramatically, they wouldn't ruin the revelation by making it a gradual reveal. Kat's cute but she didn't appear in Season One and was more of a comic character (aside from her "noble death" episode) (The Passage). Adm. Cain's story was too nicely wrapped up by Razor -- to me, it just doesn't seem like a good dramatic choice. Billy's story, too, was too poignantly told for his reappearance to be a good dramatic choice: could've been President (Home, Part II), mom-son relationship with Roslin (Sacrifice), love triangle with Dualla (Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down) -- great potential cut short and loving relationships severed by senseless gunshot (Sacrifice). And Kendra was only introduced just now in the fourth season, and the writers have been kicking around the fifth Cylon as a possibility since the first season.

Returning to the alive characters, I don't think it's Seelix, Racetrack or Hot Dog -- they're good characters, but they're very peripheral to the show, and it'd feel almost as bad a cheat as Third Specialist Schmoe. (Although with Hot Dog being played by Edward James Olmos's son, y'never know ... )

Of the remaining four -- Gaeta, Dualla, Zarek and Cottle -- my guess is this: I think the Final Cylon is Doc Cottle. And unlike the Final Four already revealed, I think he's always knows he's a Cylon and is going to be an explanatory vehicle for the writers as to the existence of the Final Five, why they break the aforementioned Cylon guidelines, the storyline, etc. I think he's the oldest character on the show, too, which would make making him a Cylon and letting him be an explanatory vehicle be a natural choice. (It even could be that Tigh was introduced as a Cylon to more gradually acclimate the fans to the idea of long-amongst-humanity Cylons, so that when Cottle is revealed, the concept doesn't feel as if it was a last-minute shoehorn into the plot.)

It also makes nice symmetry, as I think there are six kinds (not models, kinds) of Cylon.

Humanoid Cylon, sleeper: Valerii	Humanoid Cylon, always knew it: Nos 1-6, other 8s	Half- Mech, Half- Skinjob: "Hybrids"	Full Mech: Centurion, Raider brains
TAFT1-style "Mystical Cylon", sleeper: Tigh, Anders, Foster, Tyrol	TAFT1-style "Mystical Cylon", always knew it: no characters yet revealed with this trait

Having a TAFT-style Cylon who always knew he was a TAFT-style Cylon would complete the symmetry perfectly.

Of all the possibilities, Cottle also is the one who has repeatedly interacted with and affected the fate of the very top-level characters (Roslin, Adamas, Baltar, Starbuck, Valerii/Agathon). He treated Roslin (cancer) (Act of Contrition), Adama (gunshot) (Fragged), and Starbuck (leg) (Six Degrees of Separation), was an effective opposite to Baltar in a number of scenes (Epiphanies), and delivered Hera (Downloaded). He had no qualms about treating Cylons during the occupation (Exodus Pt. 1), yet wasn't treated as a traitor by the Circle (Collaborators). Arguably, also, he's one of the best choices to still get a reaction out of fans: everyone likes cranky ol' Cottle. Throughout the series, he's been the truthteller, the character who consistently "told truth to power"; he's been a nice lovable grump for the entire series -- making him a Cylon would definitely get significant fan reaction.

And as a nice cap to the idea, in D'Anna's last appearance prior to being boxed, we saw her recognize one of the Final Five Cylons and be surprised and apologize (Rapture). Earlier, during the occupation on New Caprica, D'Anna had interacted with Cottle and had a brief but amiable conversation in which D'Anna was a little smarmy, even, to boot (Exodus Pt. 1). WCityMike 03:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)