Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

Only twelve days between Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness? That put's it at the fourth week, which is pretty much before she notices she is late. Sounds like a possible plot hole. Perhaps the caprica segments were not at the same time as the main fleet episodes or Cylon physilology makes them super sensitive to morning sickness. --Shemnon 18:35, 28 Jul 2005 (EDT)

In fact, the times used here are taken from the captions introducing the Caprica sections in each episode, so a discrepancy is not possible. I too find the interval implausibly short, but that's just how it is, I guess. --Peter Farago 03:18, 29 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Roslin might not live to see Earth; although I don't have a recording of the episode, I thought she just said that she would "lead" them to Earth before her death. And since Roslin was responsible for finding the path to Earth (the starmaps in the Tomb of Athena) it might be argued that she's already 'led' them on the right path to Earth...Kuralyov 17:56, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

Re: Home, Part II: I realize that it's been difficult to firmly establish dates during this season, and anticipate that it will only get worse now that the main Kobol's Last Gleaming – Home arc is complete and the story resumes a more episodic feel. As a result, it would be helpful to justify any timeline estimates on the relevant episode's Notes section, as I have done for Resistance and The Farm. --Peter Farago 18:13, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons

So wait... The Cylong War started when William Adama was, roughly, ten and Saul Tigh was being born? It then went on for about 10 years, thus ending shortly after Adama would have been able to be in the military (assuming both that he wouldn't lie about his age to get in and that the Colonial Fleet has similar age-restrictions to the US Army--both pure speculation) and when Tigh was 10ish. This is my understanding from reading the time-line. I've frankly not paid much attention to when they mention these things on-screen. However, if this is true, then how did the ten-year-old Tigh learn about Cylon boarding party tactics after the Armistice? I have the (perhaps mistaken) impression that both Tigh and Adama are veterans of the Cylon War, but this timeline doesn't seem to allow for that. What's going on here? Am I daft? This is entirely possible. --Day 04:03, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

Untangling Season 2

After their meticulous efforts at keeping track of the timeline during the first season, TPTB have apparently started slacking off this season. A clear timeline is an important resource, however, so let's start untangling things.

• Scattered, Valley of Darkness and Fragged all clearly take place within the same 24-36 hours, on Day 51.

• Resistance takes place over two days, and begins on day 53 at the earliest. Apollo asks Dualla how his father is doing "today", implying that it is at least the second time he has done so. His first chance would have been the morning of Day 52, putting the earliest possible date of this episode at Day 53.

• Begins: Day 53
• Ends: Day 54 (earliest possible)

At the end of the episode, Roslin escapes and Bill Adama wakes up. In "The Farm", Gaeta states that Roslin's escape took place "last week". This is very vague, and means only that "The Farm" begins more than one day after "Resistance", or else Gaeta would have said "yesterday". In a scene cut from beginning of The Farm (during Roslin's arrival on Kimba Huta), Roslin makes a stronger statement - that it's been an "entire week" since her escape from Galactica. This allows us to constrain the date of this episode fairly well, by substracting a seven day period from the well established possible date range for The Farm:

• Ends Day 55 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 11 days (the longest probable time period))
• Ends Day 57 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 13 days (the longest possible time period))

I thus consider Days 53-54 to be most likely range. This assumption is important, as "Flight of the Phoenix" must be calculated based on the day of Cally's arrest.

• The Farm begins with Adama resuming command. According to D'Anna Biers in "Final Cut", Tigh was in command for "over a week". I take this to mean 8-11 days, since if it had been 12 or more, she probably would have said "almost two weeks". That puts the beginning of this episode at day 59 (earliest) or day 62 (latest).

• Begins: Day 59 (earliest) (Kobol's Last Gleaming Part I (Day 51) + 8 days)
• Begins: Day 62 (latest probable) (+11 days)
• Begins: Day 64 (latest possible) (+13 days)

Roslin, as noted above, clarifies further in a cut scene, implying that this episode takes place exactly seven days after "Resistance". Working off of my estimate above, I therefore suggest that the most probable start date for this episode is Day 61, which puts Tigh in command for a 10 day period.

This also means that Adama spent seven days between resuming consciousness and resuming command. Given the extent of his injuries, this is entirely plausible.

• Home, Part I begins immediately after the end of "The Farm".

• Final Cut takes place 10 days after the last Cylon contact. Since there were none since Valley of Darkness (Day 51), unless we count the Roslin Faction's skirmish on Kobol, and the episode clearly takes place much later than day 61, we must assume there has been a Cylon contact at some point after "Home, Part II", and that it's been more than ten days since then.

• Flight of the Phoenix features Cally's release from the brig. Since Bill Adama was being lenient when he sentenced her (in The Farm, some time after she would've been initially imprisoned), we may assume he granted her time served. If she killed Boomer on the evening of day 54, her first day in the brig would have been completed on the evening of day 55, her 30th on the evening of day 84. Her welcome-back party was probably that very night.

• Begins: Day 84 (earliest, if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
• Begins: Day 87 (latest possible, if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)

As per "Resistance", we assume Day 84 here.

The duration of the episode is difficult to determine. We can probably put an upper limit on it based on the progress of Roslin's disease in the following episodes, but in his podcast, RDM notes that the timeline was kept deliberately vague for dramatic purposes:

The true timeline of how long it would really take Tyrol to actually build one of these things from scratch would probably be much - it would be weeks, realistically. But you'd rather tell the story in one package. You'd rather tell the story, hold the viewer in the moment of the scene, make them invest themselves in the effort and pay it off. And so you can fudge the timeline, you can kind of skate by it. There's no definitive statement in the episode of how long this is all taking. It's kept purposely vague. It's not - there's no, like, y'know, clock going on. No one's mentioning a passage of time really since he started working on the viper. You could probably find cryptic references here and there that might nail it down to a specific timeline - maybe.

• Although interpreting Moore's comments may not be wise, his notion that the Blackbird would take at least "weeks" to complete is probably plausible. Thus we can guess that the episode ends at the earliest 14 days later.
• Ends: Day 98 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
• Ends: Day 99 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
• Ends: Day 101 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)

An upper limit on the end date of this episode is provided by the start of "Pegasus". When more information is available we will probably want to expand the date range as generously as possible, given the lengthy construction task in depicts.

• Pegasus is very difficult to date because of the trouble with the duration of "Flight of the Phoenix". All that can be said for certain is that, since Roslin is still on her feet, it can't possibly be more than 30 days after that episode begins, and probably no more than 20. Conceivably, "Pegasus" could have begun the very day "Flight of the Phoenix" ended, with the christening ceremony and Roslin's appearance on Galactica bookmarking the same visit. Otherwise, there were probably several days or more between her visits.
  • This is a slightly difficult reading, if only because of Adama's line "Well, Madam President, you picked a hell of a day for a visit" - she didn't pick the day for her visit in "Flight of the Phoenix", the deck crew did.

• Resurrection Ship, Part I is explicitly stated to take place six months after the fall of the twelve colonies. This badly contradicts earlier information, and there is no plausible place to insert the missing two month period, since Roslin's prognosis is updated before Cally is released from the brig in "Flight of the Phoenix". The episode itself does not appear to span more than a day.

• Resurrection Ship, Part II resumes immediately from the end of Part I, and appears to span about two and a half days.

In the episode "Epiphanies", which begins on day 189, Gaius Baltar notes that it has been "weeks" since he last saw his internal six. That puts her last appearance in this episode no later than day 175.

• Epiphanies should take place very near the end of the life span projected for Roslin in "Flight of the Phoenix". Hopefully more information will be available to date later episodes from that point, but if not, it's probably the last episode that will be dateable with any degree of certainty. For now, we can state that at the latest, the episode begins:

• Begins: Day 114 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
• Begins: Day 115 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
• Begins: Day 117 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)

However, it now appears that Cain's "six month" statement will be adhered to in future episodes. Promotional photographs from the episode indicate that Boomer is showing visibly, which is more consistant with a five-month pregnancy than the three-month pregnancy accounted for above. (Boomer was impregnated between Day 24 and Day 36 in the first season.)

Unless you go with the "Cylons have accelerated pregnancies" argument, which is admittedly something of a cop-out. --Redwall 20:09, 14 January 2006 (EST)

The episode explicitly states that it takes place on Day 189 post-holocaust. The missing two months cannot be accounted for, and must be written off as a continuity error.

Summary of Known Information:

• KLG, pt. II, Scattered, Valley of Darkness, Fragged - Day 51
• The Farm: Duration unknown. Begins 8-13 days after KLG, pt. II (probably no more than 11)
• Resistance: Covers 2 days. Ends 7 days before The Farm.
• Flight of the Phoenix: Duration is at least 14 days. Begins 30 days after Resistance.
• Resurrection Ship, Part II: Six's last appearance is at least 14 days before the beginning of "Epiphanies".
• Epiphanies: Should begin less than 30 days after Flight of the Phoenix.
• Epiphanies: Begins Day 189

More to come. --Peter Farago 01:39, 11 December 2005 (EST)

How You Can Help

I need thoughts on the following:

• How many days was Kara Thrace at the Farm on Caprica?
• How many days do both parts of "Home" span?

Further cleanup

Firstly, I'm thinking that "Epiphanies" will take place exactly 30 days after "Flight of the Phoenix" (getting it down to the wire, last possible moment to save Roslin, etc). However, I used to think "Flight of the Phoenix" happened on day 86, now it's been moved to day 89 (I don't understand the reasoning), and FotP's date is based on Cally's arrest at the end of "Resistance", however recently the deleted scenes revealed the "The Farm" takes place one week after "Fragged". I'm not adept enough at this to sort it all out, maybe someone else can. --Ricimer 10:58, 10 December 2005 (EST)

Which scene? --Peter Farago 16:33, 10 December 2005 (EST)

During the Roslin halucination scene in "Resistance", I believe; she says that the Quorum has been unsure of whether to support her or not for "a week now". Granted, it was a dream sequence, but I think it accurately reflects what the tone of the episode was.--Ricimer 22:07, 10 December 2005 (EST)

Oh, you meant The Farm, which wasn't a hallucination. That's helpful. --Peter Farago 01:01, 11 December 2005 (EST)

6 months?

I thought I heard "Is that what you two have been doing out here for the last six months?" (following by something about philosophical debates and not having that luxury in time of war) from Cain on Colonial One. 180 days is a lot, so I thought I would mention it instead of add it, since I might just have heard incorrectly. --CalculatinAvatar 21:34, 7 January 2006 (EST)

See Resurrection Ship, Part I#Analysis. Her comment cannot possibly be correct, but on the other hand, she was speaking in haste and might have been exagerating for dramatic effect. Pegasus and Resurrection Ship almost certainly take place three months and change since the attack. --Peter Farago 23:23, 7 January 2006 (EST)

Further, in "Final Cut" D'Anna Biers states that Col. Tigh was in command of Galactica for "over a week"--->which is from "Scattered" to "Resistance" (maybe "The Farm"). I'm going to be liberal with this and say that was 13 days at most (obviously, this is probably not this case). Theorizing here: We know that Col. Tigh took command on Day 51 (on screen Fact), and that may have been in "command" for at most 14 days-->Resistance takes place on Day 65ish. Cally is given 30 days in the brig, gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix" which begins on Day 85ish then. Now, RDM did say that "weeks" pass during Flight of the Phoenix, which we always interpretted as "at least two weeks". In the same episode, Roslin is told that she has one month (30 days), tops, to live. "Pegasus" could have occured right after this. Anyway, "Epiphanies" now says that it takes place on Day 189? Okay, subtract 14 days for the two weeks Six was gone; that's 175. At LEAST two days pass during the Cain trilogy; so 173. --->When does "Flight of the Phoenix" end? That's the question. Well, subtract 30 from 173 and we get 143. You know, no matter how many ways I look at it, I'm suspecting they're trying to pull a full-blown retcon on us, because they're apparently saying that "Flight of the Phoenix" from beginning to end lasted two months. We know as stated fact that the Presidential elections are taking place on Day 222 (give or take a week). So unless in an episode stated to take place 30 days from now, there is an election, this is just one of the biggest goofs we've ever had. Thoughts?--Ricimer 18:13, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Yes, that's where it stands. --Peter Farago 18:37, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Who says FOTP didn't take 2 months? They were building a frakking ship from scratch, after all. Granted, its the biggest leap we've seen in a single episode, but is there evidence to the contrary? --BMS 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Yes. Roslin gets her one-month prognosis before Cally's release from the brig, which we can firmly date. --Peter Farago 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Also, remember that Laura was starting her education-related tour thingee 189 days before Ephiphanies. I am pretty sure that she was almost ENDING it during the miniseries. So, I think we can safely say that Ephiphanies is not happening on day 189, but rather, before it. Granted, its probably not more than a week or two, but that week could be what we're missing to make the timeline coherent. --BMS 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)

In his podcast, Moore states the the flashback scenes were meant to take place in between Roslin's diagnosis and her departure for Galactica, which was all in the span of one day. He admits that the timeline has to be fudged a bit to get Baltar and Six on the scene, but it was a very short time span. --Peter Farago 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Furthermore, however, I think that we're missing gaps that occur between episodes. For instance, is there evidence that KLG took place right after Colonial Day? We listed a one day gap, but what are we basing that on? There could be a week gap there and we wouldn't know it.

There is very firm evidence for all the first season dating, including Colonial Day and Kobol's Last Gleaming. --Peter Farago 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I think we need to list the things we DO know (colonial day takes place on day 47, there is a 30 day gap between resistance and the beginning of FOTP, and Ephiphanies takes place in the 180 day range, etc.) and then rebuild the timeline from there, working in reasonable gaps. We are saying that there are continuity errors due to Ephiphanies, but I doubt RDM would make a blunder like that. We just think there is a continuity error because we've been speculating ao many dates and then taking them for fact. --BMS 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I have been maintaining exactly such a list at the bottom of my lengthy discussion on the topic. I encourage you to read it fully. --Peter Farago 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Some might call this cavalier, but this is what I propose as what I would like: Firstly, we're going to bludgeon Ron D. Moore's blog with questions about this until we get an answer (even of the "so what? we made it up" variety, anything). You see, BMS, I feel that we should not restructure the timeline based on "Epiphanies". We should point out in the Notes section of every following episode "This is so and so many days after "Epiphanies", however note that BattlestarWiki's timeline shows that it couldn't be this". This is either a major blunder, a retcon, or both. We're not basing it on "Colonial Day", we're basing it on "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II" which was the final day that we got a date on screen (Day 51). KLG part I begins immediately after Colonial Day as you see that Starbuck got drunk at the party then had sex with Baltar in the following episode (she has the same dress, etc). Simply;

• Kobol's Last Gleaming Part II through Valley of Darkness happen pretty much on the same day, Day 51.
• Colonel Tigh could not possibly have been in command of Galactica for a period of over two weeks. He was in command starting in "Scattered", until "Resistance", although possibly this could have extended until "The Farm".
• Cally is given a sentence of 30 days in the brig in "The Farm" for shooting Boomer in "Resistance". (we always assumed it mean 30 Days counting from when she was first arrested, not several days later when Adama sentenced her). She gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix".
• Roslin is told later in Flight of the Phoenix that she has no more than one month to live. That puts a MAXIMUM of 30 days between the END of Flight of the Phoenix and "Epiphanies". We do know that Flight of the Phoenix DOES span a time period of WEEKS, we always assumed this was at least two. Though I guess up to four would not be "unreasonable".
• Adding them up, 51+14+30 = 90. Flight of the Phoenix BEGINS at around at least Day 90 (although the SCENE with Roslin's diagnosis is after the scene when Cally gets out, I'm willing to fudge it and just say that scenes on different ships don't necessarily happen in order if they don't affect each other right away. Fair enough).---->Thus, "Epiphanies" could not take place any later than Day 120, which is FOUR months, not Six (to quote Picard, "THERE...ARE...**FOUR**..." MONTHS!). What are we supposed to believe, that Flight of the Phoenix lasted two months? I mean the biggest "official" gap between episodes was the 10 day gap between The Hand of God and Colonial Day.
• Another big, "dumb question" I have: If Pegasus-through-Epiphanies (within a few days of each other) is supposed to take place Six months after the Cylon attack, Why isn't Caprica-Boomer more visibly pregnant?!. Her daughter was conceived a month after the attack, which would make her Five months pregnant in "Pegasus". Yet in Pegasus, she's wearing a REALLY form fitting tank top in which she doesn't look noticeably pregnant at all. Anyone else baffled by this?--Ricimer 10:47, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Roslin's prognosis is updated very early in "Flight of the Phoenix", before Cally's release from the brig, so really it should be "a maximum of 30 days between the BEGINNING of Flight of the Phoenix" and "Epiphanies". As for Boomer, she looks about five months along in "Epiphanies", but certainly did not during the "Pegasus" trilogy. I think it's fairly obvious that we just have to write off the "lost" two months as a continuity glitch - there's certainly no use badgering RDM about it. --Peter Farago 15:28, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Thanks, Peter. Thats what I really wanted to see, the dates that we know filled in with the dates we can speculate. It appears your right, there are 2 months missing. I didn't think that RDM would make such a huge blunder - If I were him, I would have written out all the dates George Lucas style - he had the entire Star Wars timeline from Anakin's birth to Luke's death planned out before he even released the first one back in 1977. I thought RDM, with his whole "naturalistic science fiction" crusade would have done the same. Way to frak it up, RDM. PS way to work in the Picard reference - great episode. --BMS 15:33, 22 January 2006 (EST)

No he didn't. --Ricimer 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I just had another thought. Perhaps Roslins little tour lasted 2 months. If she was going to all 12 colonies, who knows? That might be the missing two months right there. Do we have a reference to the duration of that tour? --BMS 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

See RDM's podcast for his thoughts on the duration of the flashbacks. They were originally intended to all take place in between Roslin's diagnosis and her departure for Galactica, all on the same day. Note that her suit matches the one she arrived on Galactica wearing. --Peter Farago 15:43, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Oooh yeah... you're right. Well, I guess RDM's really frakked himself on this one. --BMS 19:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Very good observations, and I think we should try to pressure RDM about this, if possible. He spouts so much rhetoric about keeping it believeable that we can't really let something like this slide. However, I don't know about using the FotP "1 month" diagnosis as the main point of continuity criticism. While it is true that Dr. Cottle has shown to be a very good doctor and his estimate is probably a well-informed one, it is still an estimate. This certainly wouldn't be the first time a patient lived longer than a doctor expected, and it won't be the last. Despite decades of collecting data, cancer is still not very well understood by Earth doctors, and it follows that since the Galactica world is almost identical to ours in terms of medical technology (by design), cancer is not all that well understood there either. Drumstick 15:37, 22 January 2006 (EST)

No. In that episode he said he's be surprised if she lived a month. They were down to a few weeks. Jumping from that to saying "well she could have just lived two months and surprised everyone" is stretching it. --Ricimer 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)

By the way, please try to read the discussion thread more carefully. As much as I don't care for Ricimer regurgitating my easily accessible notes, I'd still rather not be erroneously credited for his posts. --Peter Farago 16:11, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I'm as upset about this as you are. I was developing my own thoughts, "thinking out loud" as it were, not "regurgitating" what you said (similarities are due to the fact that they share the same source material). --Ricimer 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I think we're all basically on the same page here, so there's no need to argue over who came up with what originally. Drumstick 17:37, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Come on now, this is supposed to be a *happy* occassion. Let's not bicker and argue about...who killed who...--Ricimer 17:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Yeah... we're all on the same page here. Perhaps we should add a note to the bottom of the timeline page about the missing two months? Right now, it jumps from day 86 to day 175 with no explanation. Well, I guess there IS no explanation, so we should add a note saying there is no explanation... if that makes sense. Also, sorry if I mixed up who said what, this page has become a little tough to follow. My apologies to Ricimer and Peter Farago. --BMS 19:47, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Speaking from experience, I have known two people (one relative, one relative of a close friend) with cancer who have been given the "surprised if you see out the month" speech from doctors only to survive 3 months and 18 months respectively. My point is that even the most experienced of doctors often have to make educated guesses and sometimes they don't get the figures quite right. Sometimes the cancer doesn't behave as expected or the progression through the body slows. Given what is shown of Roslyn from FOTP, Pegasus, Resurrection Ship to Epiphanies, I don't see a huge problem with her lasting the extra 60 or so days that the timeline suggests. --rexpop 1:56, 26 January 2006 (EST)

Thank you for your insight. On reflection, this does seem to be a plausible way to reconcile the time discrepancy. --Peter Farago 02:44, 26 January 2006 (EST)

Your personal insight does not add further weight to your viewpoint. I feel this violates the Citation crusade directly: unless they say directly on screen, in dialog, "wow, she lived longer than we thought", we should under no circumstances assume that she "just happened to live longer". Remember, this is a tv series where the writers are actually trying to inform they audience by stating facts on camera. This is not a historical research paper where we are trying to find out when a real person died, and we're confused that a doctor's diagnosis notes say she would live shorter than we've been led to believe. This is a tv series, and the writers were talking with us the audience in mind when they have Cottle on screen saying "you've got weeks, a month at the outside". Note, at the "outside" chance, as in "a maximum of one month". Thus, Rosl*I*n we must assume only had one month left. --Ricimer 19:57, 26 January 2006 (EST)

My only point is that of all the known information, Roslin's prognosis is the only thing that it is even possible to fudge. Whether or not one wishes to do so is a matter of personal interpretation. --Peter Farago 21:42, 26 January 2006 (EST)

Duration of Home, Part I

What's the basis for the recent dating for Home, Part I? I mean in terms of quotes or something I missed.--Ricimer 17:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

I don't know. It would probably be best to consider it in three parts with The Farm and Home, Part II, since they all seem to pick up where the other leaves off. I've sort of held off on re-watching them longer than I should, since they aren't really my favorite episodes... --Peter Farago 18:00, 8 January 2006 (EST)

If we just "assumed" 2 days had passed, etc without evidence I think it should be replaced with ?? marks. --Ricimer 18:38, 8 January 2006 (EST)

I agree, if there's no evidence, but let's give Kahran a chance to respond. --Peter Farago 18:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies"

Should we remove the "Roslin's maximum/minimum life expectancy" stat now that her cancer's been all but cured? Kahran 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

I'd rather not. We didn't remove her older life expectancy from "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" when the estimate was revised downward in "Flight of the Phoenix". Both data points might still be of interest to someone who's following the continuity of the show. --Peter Farago 21:04, 21 January 2006 (EST)