Talk:Naturalistic science fiction/Archive 1

NPOV Request

Ok, folks, I see some major problems with this article:

• A lot of it reads like it's the purpose of this site to bash Star Trek
• Some of it is quite simply false:

In StarTrek, energy is not provided by "inexhaustible dylithium". Rather, the dilithium crystals serve as a matrix for a controlled matter/antimatter reaction, similar to moderators in a nuclear fission power plant (cf. http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/technology/article/2743.html ) As such, not being the fuel, they don't need to be exchanged beyond wear and tear. And matter/antimatter reaction is a very feasible energy source for huge amounts of energy. In fact, I doubt it is possible to get a higher efficiency. Compared to that, it is Tylium that is sheer fantasy.

Photon torpedos, while glowing in animation, aren't "energy weapons" other than in having a matter/antimatter warhead. They are very solid vehicles.

etc.

• Guns'n'bullets are very good weapons on a planet. In space, they have their uses, too, but they also have their limitations. Due to the immense speed theoretically possible in space and the relatively small speed of bullets compared to these, the useful range of regular projectile weapons is quite limited. At greater distance, psychic qualities would be necessary to predict where the target will be once the bullet is there. While energy weapons have issues of focussing, those aren't insurpassable. On the other hand, they have, in the case of a laser, speed of light, and in the case of a particle accelerator, close to that, meaning they can bridge even large distances in relatively short time. None of that is "fantasy", as the article suggests, but rather technology that exists today which requires miniaturization. So guns and bullets are quite ok as point defense weapons in space, but for anything further away, either guided weapons or weapons achieving a speed that is a significant fraction of the speed of light are necessary. One tends to think of huge vessels such as Galactica or a Cylon basestar as slow. But give them enough time to accelerate, and they can be whizzing by at several miles per second.

• While a lot of the stuff mentioned in the text might be RDM's intention, the question is how much it fulfills the claims raised. While obviously, there should be a place on this site to cite RDM, I believe that the individual articles of a Wiki should be a source of information were the creator's views are but one source of information. RDM's take is already provided with the link to Galactica2003.net and while it should be summarized here, I don't think it should be taken as holy writ.

The jetliner in space and other things might feel "naturalistic", but that doesn't mean it's a sound concept. The "plausible technical accuracy" in the "in theory" paragraph is a bold hypothesis. However, to me the setup honestly looks more like "doing soft SF with the bad stuff left out". And the "no deus ex machina" concept needs to be looked askance at vis-a-vis the cancer cure as well.

The stories Galactica has to tell are great, but I personally believe that as a consequence of RDM not wanting to "tie himself down" dramatically, what is lacking is a solid concept of the level of technology. A lot of things might look perfectly feasible when seen isolated, but on an overall level, I believe putting FTL (or quasi-FTL) and anti-gravity together with a lot of 20th and 21st century technology, and in some aspects apparently even less, RDM actually backpedaled to a lot of early SF, which had FTL travel because it was dramaturgically necessary, and some development in the physics department such as beam weapons, but lacked any development in biology. Likewise, BG shows technologies that suggest availability of humongous amounts of energy but shows little other use than one or two applications. This gives a discontinous impression of the technological level.

So, theoretically, my concerns would require a complete rewrite of the text, which is why I rather voiced them here before changing something. I believe, though, the false information re:StarTrek should be thrown out posthaste, since it weakens any other points. --OliverH. 15:49, 13 February 2006 (EST)

Over the months, this article has been edited to the point where it does have a bias towards "Star Trek," which, given its location in the pop SF food chain, is a deserved prime target. Yet, I agree, the article need not be a "Star Trek"-bashing article, but to contrast and compare it (and other series, such as another high level target, "Stargate SG-1") to what BSG strives to be. And, as you've noted in other articles, BSG isn't perfect. Rather than duplicating what is on the Science in the Re-imagined Series page, dividing the page by section with comments and comparison relevant to where NSF principles succeeded or failed so far in BSG could be useful. To aid in this, I've tagged this article with the (rarely used here) tag of disputed neutrality to get some attention. --Spencerian 16:00, 13 February 2006 (EST)

I must disagree utterly with OliverH's comments:

• Yes, I agree with Spencerian that certain small tweaks should be made. However, if Oliver wanted to change small-sclae complaints like "inexhaustible dilithium crystals to "inexhaustible energy supply based on dilithium controlled matter/anti-matter reaction", he should simply have done so immediatly instead of forcing debate on the subject. Although "photon torpedos" are not energy weapons, phasers are; he should have just edited this accordingly, as he saw fit.
• Yes, Guns aren't as good weapons as lasers. That doesn't change the fact that 1) At dogfight and regular battle distances, they're still pretty useful and 2) The BSG universe is intentionally not that technologically advanced. The fact that lasers are superior to guns doesn't change the fact that they still use these more "realistic" weapons. The entire point of that, of course, is more story design: being shot with bullets (i.e. Tarn), has more emotional impact than being shot with "lasers").
• Yes, it is almost certainly the direct purpose of this article to critique Star Trek, by contrasting it with BSG. Oliver, the entire concept of making the new BSG was that it was RDM's "answer" to the poor quality of the later Star Treks (Voyager and Enterprise, rife with technobabble an implausibility), in this area as well. Quite frankly, it's impossible to separate the two: when the first page of the series bible states that "we propose nothing less than the re-invention of the scifi tv series genre"...it's kind of required that you make comparisons to the "old" model of the genre which was "re-invented". This part of the article must stand.
• So, basically, no, your comments do not "require" a "complete rewrite of the text". This is overboard. However, I do *commend* you on stating your feeling on the talk page instead of just making them without consensus. I would like to say that I do not mean to offend, Oliver, but these Star Trek/BSG issues bring up strong emotions. Like the silly pages and other talk-commentary, the "Naturalistic Science Fiction" page, is, by its very nature, going to be NPOV. I do agree with Spencerian's assessment that it could use some tweaking here or there, mostly for fact correction (dilithium, phasers,etc.) but the derision of Star Trek must remain, because BSG defines itself in opposition to this. --The Merovingian 16:51, 13 February 2006 (EST)

I believe it's possible for this article to reach a reasonably NPOV status. Sadly, it's going to have to be near the bottom of my considerably long to-do list. --Peter Farago 18:45, 13 February 2006 (EST)

Re-imagined Series definition: technology enabling travel across distances faster than the speed of light would permit, see: FTL

Re-imagined Series definition: Battlestar Group ^{(TRS: "Water")}. It also doubles as an acronym for the television series itself.