Talk:Sharon Valerii/Archive2

Rank

Screen captures show that Starbuck, Boomer, and Helo all wear the same rank insignia. Helo is known to be a Lieutenant JG, Starbuck is almost definitely a full Lieutenant, and Boomer's status is disputed.

The article lists her as a Lieutenant JG, but according to these pictures she wears the same rank insignia as Starbuck. Philwelch 22:38, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Does anyone have a source on the Lt. J.G. business? --Peter Farago 22:46, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Per Moore's blog entry, the rank seems to exist, and in the miniseries, Starbuck notes Helo's "flying with rooks", indicating that Boomer is a new pilot. Then again, by the time she's done with basic officer training and flight school she very well may have made it all the way up to full Lieutenant. Philwelch 23:11, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Kat is definitely an Lt. J.G., as per her caption in "Final Cut". Maybe someone can get a capture of her insignia. --Peter Farago 23:16, 7 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer was a Lieutenant Junior Grade, because she was a new pilot and Lt. J.G. was the lowest officer rank (all pilots are officers). We knew Starbuck is a full Lieutenant because she's the highest ranking pilot after Apollo. I don't know what the frak you're talking about with these 'pictures'; you can't make out a clear shot of their rank insignia in any of them. --Ricimer 23:59, 7 December 2005 (EST)

It's difficult but definitely possible if you look at enough. Besides, Ensign is the lowest officer rank (Ensign Davis is apparently infatuated with Crashdown in Season 1, and Ron Moore mentions the rank of Ensign in his blog post). Furthermore, the collar of Sharon's uniform jacket in "Water" gives her rank simply as "Lieutenant", not "Lieutenant Junior Grade". Philwelch 03:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Starbuck's insignia is visible in the picture where she's staring down Baltar. Sharon's is visible in one of the cockpit shots of her and Crashdown. Philwelch 03:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

OH come on, don't we all remember then endless rank-pip mix ups on Star Trek?; in no way should we alter PRE-EXISTING biographical information due to insignia on their collars in a stray scene or two. --Ricimer 10:54, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Yeah, but we still need a source on Sharon's Lt. J.G. status if we're going to argue against on screen evidence. Has she ever actually be referred to as such? --Peter Farago 14:29, 8 December 2005 (EST)

It's not a stray scene or two—it's every scene. Someone with HD captures or the DVDs should verify but in every picture I've seen, Boomer wears that same insignia, and so does Starbuck. And it's not just the insignia—it's the label on her uniform collar.

Ricimer, I learned from the "twelve models" thing that when we fans make seemingly reasonable extrapolations from incomplete evidence, we screw things up. There is no direct evidence that Boomer is a JG. None. (Kat is a J.G.—if we can get a screen capture of her insignia perhaps we could compare to Boomer and Starbuck). Yes, it's slightly implausible that a rook pilot could already be an O-3, but not out of the question. For all we know she was a retrained ECO.

Oooh, I just realized, Helo's a JG too. (in 33 he gives his "name, rank, and serial number"). I'm gonna check out his insignia. Philwelch 15:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

That's strange. Helo wears the same insignia too as far as I can determine. So apparently both grades of Lieutenant wear the same insignia, unless there's a very subtle difference. (There might be—Adama's and Tigh's insignia are hard to tell apart in some photos.) Also, what rank is Helo according to his caption in Final Cut? Philwelch 15:24, 8 December 2005 (EST)

The collar of Lt. Valerii's uniform jacket is labeled with her name, serial number, and rank. ("Water")

I updated the picture. I'd still say that the preponderence of evidence (considering Boomer's uniform collar in "Water") indicates she's a full Lieutenant, barring any additional evidence to the contrary. Philwelch 15:34, 8 December 2005 (EST)

If the full Lt. and Lt. J.G. insignia are the same, then what do we have to go on? --Peter Farago 15:43, 8 December 2005 (EST)

This image. Philwelch 15:48, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Which image? --Peter Farago 15:56, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Sorry, got it uploaded now. Philwelch 16:08, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Seems credible. --Peter Farago 16:13, 8 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer's insignia in the picture above (left side) looks different. On all the other Lt. pins, there is a diamond and the ends of the chevron protrude beyond it but on the pin of Boomer's right side (our left) it looks like the chevron doesn't protrude, leaving it a plain diamond. One other thing is in the Mini, Boomer's Raptor is marked "JRLIEUTENANT SHARON VALERII." --Talos 11:36, 14 December 2005 (EST)

In "Water" before Sharon launches to find water, at 0:26:16, her rank insignia catches the light and you can see that the insignia is a diamond with no protrusions from the chevrons. --Talos 12:59, 14 December 2005 (EST)

That had occurred to me, but the protrusions are difficult to see, yet in some shots they are visible. Furthermore, have you checked Helo's insignia for protrusions? The Raptor markings might be considered a retcon since the rank was established in "33" as "Lieutenant J.G.". Overall the evidence seems inconclusive at best, which is one reason I really, really want HD screen captures. (Word of mouth is one thing, pictures are better). Philwelch 17:02, 15 December 2005 (EST)

Oh yeah: Helo's chevron definitely DOES protrude, and it's completely confirmed that he's a J.G. Philwelch 17:03, 15 December 2005 (EST)

You should be able to see what I mean here.--Talos 20:58, 16 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer's insignia (Water).

OK. I agree it looks like that, but I can bring up just as many images that make it look like the edges on Adama's insignia aren't there. More importantly, there are images that clearly show Sharon and Helo's chevrons protruding. Philwelch 01:26, 17 December 2005 (EST)

I agree that the collars are inconclusive. They're hard to see even on DVDs and BSG has notoriously dark lighting, shakey cameras, etc. All this, plus the ease of this a rank pin might be bothced by the costum guys makes me think that we should treat those as secondary evidence. Unless we can get a really good shot (like the Helo and Starbuck ones above) of Boomer's pin, I think we should act on the hypothesis that all Lieutenants wear the same pin, with the chevron protruding.

So, discounting jewelry, we have the Mini-series which, according to Talos, marks her ship as JRLIEUTENANT (which is suppose is the same as Lt. J.G.), and then Water which, as seen in the screen cap above, has her uniform marked "LIEUTENANT". I'd think that her uniform would have her full rank and not just part of it, so I think we can count these as contradictory. Talos, can you give us a screen cap or a rough time that the mini shows this marking? Until we can verify that, what do we do if they're both equally clear? I mean--make a note, obviously, but which is right? I'd vote that Season 1 takes precedence over the mini since this would not be the first retconn from mini to Season 1. Thoughts? --Day 01:52, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Furthermore, the rank of "Junior Lieutenant" has been retconned to "Lieutenant J.G." Philwelch 02:36, 17 December 2005 (EST)

I'm not even sure if we need to call that a retconn. Might just have been some short hand or whatever. The meaning is pretty clearly the same. Unless someone wants to argue something about her being named after her (alleged) father or something. Heh. --Day 02:54, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Here's the pic of the Raptor. Also, I added a pic of couple shots from the Mini-series that show a plain diamond insignia. It seems pretty consistant that the right pin is plain but the left one has the protruding chevron like in the picture at the top of this discussion (the triple one with the Starbuck/Boomer/Helo shots). --Talos 18:24, 17 December 2005 (EST)

Boomer's Raptor nameplate (Mini-Series).

File:Boomer insig2a.JPG

Boomer's insignia part 2 (Mini-Series).

Those have a pretty apparent chevron, Talos. Philwelch 02:02, 18 December 2005 (EST)

I think you're missing the finer distinction that's under debate, Phil. THe question is not whether she's got a chevron. It is two fols: a) Does the chevron poke out of the bottom of the pin like Starbucks and b) Does that actually mean anything? If I get some free time (maybe Teusday, I think), I'll try to get a shot of Boomer/Crashdown's Raptor from my Season 1 DVDs to see if it reads the same as the Miniseries' version of the prop or not. --Day 02:23, 18 December 2005 (EST)

Without HD captures or similar high-resolution images, we can't easily tell. Furthermore, it's an entirely settled point, because we have images showing that Helo's chevron does protrude from the edge, and Helo is indisputably a Lieutenant J.G. Philwelch 04:12, 18 December 2005 (EST)

I know, that's the problem. --Talos 08:41, 18 December 2005 (EST)

In several instances, it appears that Lt. Gaeta has a rank insignia with non-protruding chevrons (at least the Mini and "Hand of God"). The interesting thing is, in Hand of God during the planning session around 10 minutes into the episode, Starbuck's insignia is visible and doesn't show a protruding chevron either but it does in other episodes. Weird. Sorry about the lower resolution pics, the only way I can get screenshots right now is by turning off the hardware acceleration but if you look at the edge of the insig in the new picture I just posted (the Gaeta and Starbuck one), you can't see where it should be protruding. --Talos 19:18, 18 December 2005 (EST)

File:Gaeta Thrace Insig.JPG

Gaeta and Starbuck rank insignia (Hand of God).