Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, see this revision.

Major Concision

I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the Tory Foster suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --Spencerian 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

Interesting Info

Read the interview below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.

Spoiler follows, highlight to read.
We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character

My take on the interview. --FrankieG 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.

Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. I think that they've been boxed." --Serenity 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --FrankieG 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.

Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I did meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --Spencerian 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. Noneofyourbusiness 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --Todd 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

Kacey's Mother

Can we start a discussion concerning Kacey's "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when Starbuck and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- GIR 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Jammer as Cylon speculation

I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --Straycat0 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --Spencerian 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

Here's a concisement of my points:

Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's

   1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
   8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
   6 points that he's not a Cylon

I say he should be down to Low Probability.--Straycat0 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --Spencerian 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon

As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.

Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

I agree, not a good argument.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.

Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.

--Todd 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--Todd 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--Straycat0 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --Todd 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--Straycat0 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--Straycat0 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Anders Speculation

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mitchy (talk • contribs).

"Cylon on Cylon violence"

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of Downloaded was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. Damburger 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person knew they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --Todd 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --BklynBruzer 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Her human personality does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --Todd 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Character Elimination.

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --BklynBruzer 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- Noneofyourbusiness 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)

No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --BklynBruzer 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)

And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- Noneofyourbusiness 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)